Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Avery]

The way this conversation is heading, it would be a great opportunity to practice “bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ”.(2 Corinthians 10:5)

I will probably get hammered on for saying this…. But as my son says, “Pick your battles”.

 

[Rufus]

You blame God for hardening Pharoah's heart, so such hardening was not a sin,
contradicting what Exo. 9:34 clearly says and calling it "rubbish"?

News flash: The Abrahamic Covenant is about messianic genealogy.

Newsflash Two: The Abrahamic Covenant is also about more than messianic prophecy. It's also about the establishment of a nation (Israel) that God would bring into a covenant relationship with, and also about Abraham becoming the [spiritual] father of many Gentile nations since God would one day also bring the Gentiles into the covenant via the New Covenant.

And Ex 4 long precedes Ex 9:34 in the chronology of the Exodus narrative. Pharaoh hardened his own heart as a result of God's decree! (So, as usual you get everything backwards.) In Ex 3, God predicted to Moses that Pharaoh will not let His people go! In Ex 4, He then tells Moses HOW he knows this, and it wasn't by God's prescience but rather by his prerogative (decree), "I will harden his heart"! Ex 9, therefore, expresses the fulfillment of this prophecy, proving once again the compatibility of God's decretive will with man's will. And also this narrative proves the veracity of Eph 1:11 -- that's God's will is never contingent upon any of his creatures'.

 

[Rufus]

Were you a servant of righteousness before you believed in Christ?

You truly don't read too swell, do you? Brightflame could not have been more clear! Unbelievable!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It's a story about the nature of true love and how genuine, biblical agape love works. Love actively seeks the welfare of others. The Good Samaritan actually put his love into action through his compassion, mercy and grace by effectually ministering to the half-dead man. The Samaritan was truly a more righteous man than either the Father or Son since neither don't concretely/effectually save anyone. All they do is provide opportunities for people to save themselves through their choices. Clearly, the Good Samaritan's love was more precious than gold to the crime victim. But God's "agape" love???

hi Rufus ...

did the Lord Jesus Christ tell the lawyer he needed to be like ...

... the guy on the side of the road (vs 30)?

... the priest (vs 31)?

... the levite (vs 32)?

... the Samaritan (vss 33-35)?


Luke 10:

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


I say the Lord Jesus Christ was telling the lawyer he needed to be like the Samaritan.

it'll be interesting to me to see which of the sword slingers in this thread can agree on this one simple point ... especially when the answer is glaringly obvious in vss 36-37.

or will agreement be withheld because "oh my gosh, I can't be in agreement with _______ (fill in the blank)!!!"




Psalm 133:1-3 KJV - 1 [[A Song of degrees of David.]] Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.
.

 

[Rufus]

hi Rufus ...

did the Lord Jesus Christ tell the lawyer he needed to be like ...

... the guy on the side of the road (vs 30)?

... the priest (vs 31)?

... the levite (vs 32)?

... the Samaritan (vss 33-35)?


Luke 10:

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


I say the Lord Jesus Christ was telling the lawyer he needed to be like the Samaritan.

it'll be interesting to me to see which of the sword slingers in this thread can agree on this one simple point ... especially when the answer is glaringly obvious in vss 36-37.

or will agreement be withheld because "oh my gosh, I can't be in agreement with _______ (fill in the blank)!!!"




Psalm 133:1-3 KJV - 1 [[A Song of degrees of David.]] Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.
.

And your point is what precisely?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yup! Is not the penalty of sin death?

do you believe Adam and Eve died the very day they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

God told Adam in Gen 2:17 in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die ... in the Hebrew, the word mûṯ is repeated "surely [mûṯ] die [mûṯ]" and reads "dying you shall die".

If Adam's sin is not imputed to all men in the distributive sense, then how could God be just in "permitting" infants, babies, young children, etc., who have not attained to a true knowledge of good and evil, suffer that penalty by dying before they reach the age of accountability?

I do not believe Adam's sin was imputed to all men.

I believe Adam and Eve were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26-27) ... Adam and Eve ate of the tree and were no longer in the image of God ... and all descendants of Adam were/are/will be begotten in the image and likeness of their parents (Gen 5:3).

I also believe God death passed upon all because all have sinned (Rom 5:12).

God is gracious toward infants and children who die before they reach the age of accountability.

Also, just because God provided coverings for A&E does not in and of itself prove anything about their spiritual condition. Did both our first parents receive God's gracious coverings by faith? FWers (freewillers) here will tell you how much they loathe God's unilateral actions because if He acted in that way, this would be tantamount to Him tyrannically forcing his will upon his moral agents.

I believe the covering covered the shame Adam and Eve experienced as a result of their downfall and the shedding of blood which took place covered the sin of Adam and Eve (without shedding of blood there is no remission).

Recall that they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed (Gen 2:25) ... after they ate they knew they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons (Gen 3:7) ... they hid from God because they were naked (Gen 3:10).

God replaced their manmade aprons with His provision for them ... and, again, who was in the loins of Adam and Eve at that time?.

Do yourself a big favor: Read the post-Fall account in Genesis prayerfully, slowly and carefully and then get back to me and tell me if you can see in that narrative any evidence of faith on the part of Adam or Eve.

I believe the faith of Adam and Eve is exhibited in the narrative concerning Cain and Abel.

Who taught the boys to bring an offering to the Lord? [Hint: their parents.]

Heb 11 tells us Abel brought his offering by faith. The downfall of Cain was that he did not bring his offering by faith and continued in his obstinacy even after God told him he would be accepted if he did well (brought his offering by faith as his brother Abel had). Cain rejected God's truth and went out and murdered his brother. Abel, to this day still speaks even though he has been dead since early on in Genesis and we have no record of any words being spoken by Abel.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, but only the estate of the individual who was beaten.

rolleyes ... one nonessential question answered ...


The question was:

did the Lord Jesus Christ tell the lawyer he needed to be like ...

... the guy on the side of the road (vs 30)?

... the priest (vs 31)?

... the levite (vs 32)?

... the Samaritan (vss 33-35)?


Even the lawyer answered the question correctly when Jesus asked ... and Jesus told the lawyer to go and do the same.

Luke 10:36-37 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
.

 

[Cameron143]

rolleyes ... one nonessential question answered ...


The question was:

did the Lord Jesus Christ tell the lawyer he needed to be like ...

... the guy on the side of the road (vs 30)?

... the priest (vs 31)?

... the levite (vs 32)?

... the Samaritan (vss 33-35)?


Even the lawyer answered the question correctly when Jesus asked ... and Jesus told the lawyer to go and do the same.

Luke 10:36-37 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
.

I already said you laid out the story well, but none of what you have shared has any bearing on the previous discussion. Do you have anything to add to that discussion?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And your point is what precisely?

click

I already said you laid out the story well, but none of what you have shared has any bearing on the previous discussion. Do you have anything to add to that discussion?

Only that you said:

Stick to what the passage teaches. Then you will be be okay. Allow what people say to be what they mean and stop adding both to scripture and what others say.

and it appears there are some in this thread who do not want to "stick to what the passage teaches" ... nor do they want to "stop adding ... to scripture".

Some would rather argue about what is not in the passage in an effort to not "stick to what the passage teaches ... and then wield a club at those who do not come into alignment with something that is not discussed in the passage.
.

 

[Kroogz]

You truly don't read too swell, do you? Brightflame could not have been more clear! Unbelievable!

See, calvies attack the man not the message:

Kroogz said:
Were you a servant of righteousness before you believed in Christ?
brightfame52 said:
A Servant of righteousness is to become a believer in and follower of Christ

 

[sawdust]

There is no problem. As you pointed out, "we have Adam to thank for that". After all, he was our appointed Federal Head; therefore, in a real sense the entire human race was in Adam's loins when he sinned and self-destructed.

And Rom 7 is describing Paul's Christian experience. No unregenerate person rejoices in God's Law. In fact, the lost hate God's law, hate spiritual knowledge, hate wisdom, hate understanding, hate God, hate his Son and love the Darkness!

Yes but you didn't explain Adam's excuse for sinning. The fact Adam sinned of his own free will shows the model of God's creation and therefore to ignore the fact that God comes to us in grace and truth ( Jn.1:14 ) enabling our bound will to be free for the purpose of responding to the Gospel, is disingenuous.

Romans 7 is Paul's unsaved experience. Why would he cry out at the end for salvation if he was already saved.

Romans 7:24
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Any Christian who is still experiencing Romans 7 on a regular basis either is new to the faith and has yet to learn how to walk or they are ignorant and have never learned to walk and are still crawling around in their diapers.

 

[Cameron143]

click





Only that you said:





and it appears there are some in this thread who do not want to "stick to what the passage teaches" ... nor do they want to "stop adding ... to scripture".

Some would rather argue about what is not in the passage in an effort to not "stick to what the passage teaches ... and then wield a club at those who do not come into alignment with something that is not discussed in the passage.
.

Right, but what was added was in regard to the beaten individual. And that was what I was what I was addressing.

 

[Kroogz]

and are still crawling around in their diapers.

Amen. I still have depends for the occasional accident.

 

[sawdust]

FWers don't believe the Potter hasn't any rights over his creation, in spite of what Paul taught. All the rights belong to his clay pots. The Potter exists to serve his pots.

Not true. We simply understand that the Potter isn't making the clay, He is working with the clay He has. In the same way the Lord is not choosing who believes and who doesn't but is choosing what He will do with the believers while patiently enduring the rejection of unbelievers.

 

[sawdust]

Amen. I still have depends for the occasional accident.

Don't we all.

1 John 1:9

 

[Kroogz]

Not true. We simply understand that the Potter isn't making the clay, He is working with the clay He has. In the same way the Lord is not choosing who believes and who doesn't but is choosing what He will do with the believers while patiently enduring the rejection of unbelievers.

2 Tim 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, meet for the master's use, prepared unto every good work.

 

[HeIsHere]

Are you trying to mislead everyone with this post?
For someone who believes man has no need of help, why would you bother to pray for anyone?

The truth and power of the Gospel message is no help?
Okay

 

[Magenta]

The truth and power of the Gospel message is no help?
Okay

Not to one who cannot comprehend it. But I know you deny this along with multiple other Scripture Truths.

The gospel is the power of salvation to those who believe.

 

[Rufus]

do you believe Adam and Eve died the very day they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

God told Adam in Gen 2:17 in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die ... in the Hebrew, the word mûṯ is repeated "surely [mûṯ] die [mûṯ]" and reads "dying you shall die".





I do not believe Adam's sin was imputed to all men.

I believe Adam and Eve were created in the image of God (Gen 1:26-27) ... Adam and Eve ate of the tree and were no longer in the image of God ... and all descendants of Adam were/are/will be begotten in the image and likeness of their parents (Gen 5:3).

I also believe God death passed upon all because all have sinned (Rom 5:12).

God is gracious toward infants and children who die before they reach the age of accountability.





I believe the covering covered the shame Adam and Eve experienced as a result of their downfall and the shedding of blood which took place covered the sin of Adam and Eve (without shedding of blood there is no remission).

Recall that they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed (Gen 2:25) ... after they ate they knew they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons (Gen 3:7) ... they hid from God because they were naked (Gen 3:10).

God replaced their manmade aprons with His provision for them ... and, again, who was in the loins of Adam and Eve at that time?.





I believe the faith of Adam and Eve is exhibited in the narrative concerning Cain and Abel.

Who taught the boys to bring an offering to the Lord? [Hint: their parents.]

Heb 11 tells us Abel brought his offering by faith. The downfall of Cain was that he did not bring his offering by faith and continued in his obstinacy even after God told him he would be accepted if he did well (brought his offering by faith as his brother Abel had). Cain rejected God's truth and went out and murdered his brother. Abel, to this day still speaks even though he has been dead since early on in Genesis and we have no record of any words being spoken by Abel.

Since you don't believe that Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind, then explain to me how Adam can be a type of Christ?

Also, you should really study Rom 5:12ff re this typology. Maybe you'll figure out why it's definitely NOT a good thing to die in Adam!

And who taught the boys to bring an offering? Does the passage say? Or why would you assume that both A&E were godly parents and both taught the principles of righteousness?

And why did you totally miss the biblical three-fold evidence (assuming you took my advice to carefully read the post-fall narrative) that Eve acknowledged God and expressed faith in Him twice in the narrative, and why Adam named his wife "Eve" and what the significance of her name is? How did you miss these passages?

And your reply about the deaths of the very young does not address my question about God's justice! The penalty of sin is DEATH, which is why we all die physically (save of course for those saints still alive at the Parousia). So...if children are innocent of sin, then you need to explain how that squares with God's justice. If all children are innocent then why would God decree their premature deaths, since the point to death is to address guilt for sin? On what JUDICIAL basis is God just by such decrees against the "innocent"?

And to answer your question about whether A&E died "on the day" they ate of the fruit: The answer is YES! They died spiritually.

 

[Magenta]

Daniel 4 verse 35~ All the peoples of the earth are counted as nothing, and He does as He pleases with the army of heaven and the peoples of the earth. There is no one who can restrain His hand or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’ Isaiah 14 verse 24~ The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Psalm 139 verse 16~ Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Proverbs 16 verse 9~ In their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps. Proverbs 19 verse 21~ Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.