Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Bible_Highlighter]

If only eh God doesn't live by your moral will,.and he holds no value to human will, as it lives in the flesh,

I see this so may times here ,. You keep saying God can't save them by going against there will on the bases that you see it as unjust, but it's God's life hes saving, but it's not free tho, in unsaved, the will of mans nature in the unsaved is held captive to death and so is there soul held captive to death.

And you really should not be centralising going against human will to this imaginary Calvinism idea you have,

An unsaved person held captive to death needs saving, as there is no way such a person can save himself, what this means is a an unsaved person is held captive to death and not only that he holds his own will above God


God tells us the will of the flesh makes his holy laws weak, which means if an unsaved person holds his own will above God,.which God declares he does how can he choose to be saved, being saved is dependent on your whole life spent with God. He knows if your going to accept his will,.he knows before your born,.and your salvation is dependent on your whole life.

God has to go against the will of unsaved person to transform him, with his many ways in which he does, which has been over exhausted in this thread.


And when God says people.wont let him it means God has examined there heart and they've rejected him as the chief corner stone, which the bible also declares.

That's what the many people.did in Jerusalem at the time of his crucification,

These words you cite are his faith being expressed from a person heart,

And many will say the thing after lord has spoken in there hearts.

Theses are not grounds in which to base free will having any value as human will has no value to God, human will has corrupted all mankind it has no value to God .

And calling God unjust for going against mans will is also holding your own will above God.

And all the other scriptures you've posted is also about God going against mans will and speaking in there hearts

You are misunderstanding my point. I am not saying that man can save himself apart from God. I agree that no one can come to Christ unless God first draws him (John 6:44 KJV). My issue is with your claim that God must override a person’s will to save him. That removes any real relationship or love between God and man.

If salvation is entirely forced, then God could just as easily force everyone to be saved. But He does not, and that reveals the moral problem in your system. It portrays God as arbitrary, choosing some and rejecting others without any genuine choice or response from the person. That is not love, that is control.

Jesus Himself showed otherwise when He said, “How often would I have gathered thy children together… and ye would not” (Matthew 23:37 KJV). He genuinely desired their repentance, but they refused. Their will mattered. God’s drawing does not negate man’s responsibility to respond.

If human will has no value, as you claim, then all the commands of Scripture such as “repent,” “believe,” and “come unto Me,” are meaningless. God does not command robots. He calls people to freely respond to His grace. Love requires choice, and God desires love, not forced obedience.



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[Bible_Highlighter]

Calvinism does not make any sense. It just doesn't really work when you read the Bible plainly and normally.

The only places that sort of sound like Calvinism at first glance is Romans 9 and John 6:44 KJV, and even then, you have to read these pieces of Scripture out of context to the rest of the surrounding verses to make such an odd interpretation work.



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[Bible_Highlighter]

How does Calvinism work in Jonah 3?
Jonah told that the Ninevites were going to face God's Judgment in 40 days, and yet that did not happen because they decided to seek forgiveness with God and forsake their evil ways. When God had seen that they abandoned their wickedness, that is when God turned back on bringing judgment upon them. They were not spared from Judgment because they were the chosen ones and God regenerated their hearts in order to believe. That's not what happened. We clearly see here an example of men responding to judgment in 40 days through repentance and God did not bring the Judgment based on this repentance by them.



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[Bible_Highlighter]

How does 2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV work in Calvinism?
It says that those who perish do so because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved (See KJV).
There is no such thing as "might be saved" in Calvinism.
Yet, this is what the KJV says in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.


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[Bible_Highlighter]

There are many places also in the Bible where God commands things of us. Take for example the command to repent. God commands all men everywhere to repent in the New Testament. How does this work in Calvinism? Do you see "all men everywhere" as referring only to the Calvinist Elect? That doesn't make any sense. That's not the plain way in just reading the Bible.



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[DavidLamb]

well David how much longer should you give someone the benefit of doubt ?

I have never mentioned giving anybody the benefit of the doubt.

 

[DavidLamb]

Do you believe his word was made flesh ? Yes or no ?

Otherwise I'm not going into discussion with you.

According to John 1, Jesus Christ is the Word, and He became flesh.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

If only eh God doesn't live by your moral will,.and he holds no value to human will, as it lives in the flesh,

I see this so may times here ,. You keep saying God can't save them by going against there will on the bases that you see it as unjust, but it's God's life hes saving, but it's not free tho, in unsaved, the will of mans nature in the unsaved is held captive to death and so is there soul held captive to death.

And you really should not be centralising going against human will to this imaginary Calvinism idea you have,

An unsaved person held captive to death needs saving, as there is no way such a person can save himself, what this means is a an unsaved person is held captive to death and not only that he holds his own will above God


God tells us the will of the flesh makes his holy laws weak, which means if an unsaved person holds his own will above God,.which God declares he does how can he choose to be saved, being saved is dependent on your whole life spent with God. He knows if your going to accept his will,.he knows before your born,.and your salvation is dependent on your whole life.

God has to go against the will of unsaved person to transform him, with his many ways in which he does, which has been over exhausted in this thread.


And when God says people.wont let him it means God has examined there heart and they've rejected him as the chief corner stone, which the bible also declares.

That's what the many people.did in Jerusalem at the time of his crucification,

These words you cite are his faith being expressed from a person heart,

And many will say the thing after lord has spoken in there hearts.

Theses are not grounds in which to base free will having any value as human will has no value to God, human will has corrupted all mankind it has no value to God .

And calling God unjust for going against mans will is also holding your own will above God.

And all the other scriptures you've posted is also about God going against mans will and speaking in there hearts

Imagine a man. His name is Rick, and he has a family he loves very much. One day, Rick, his loved ones, and several others are stranded at sea. A coast guard ship arrives to rescue them. The rescuer saves some of the others but passes by Rick and his family, leaving them behind to perish. When Rick asks why the coast guard refuses to save him and his loved ones, the rescuer replies, “You should be glad I’m saving these other people.”

Would that answer bring Rick comfort? Would it remind him of love, mercy, or justice? Of course not. Any person with a heart would be devastated and outraged in such a situation. May it never be, but what if (in a hypothetical parallel universe) it were you and your loved ones? Would you call that rescuer loving?

Then how can you say that God is love (1 John 4:8) and yet also believe that God is like this rescuer? It simply does not make any rational sense. Calvinism paints God in this way, but such a view cannot be reconciled with the God of Scripture. The Bible reveals a God who genuinely loves the world, who offers salvation to all, and who desires that none should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Calvinism, on the other hand, presents a God who refuses to rescue most of mankind when He easily could. That is not love. That is not justice.

Do you understand where I am coming from?
I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth using real world examples.
Even the Canaanite woman was able to make an extended parable of her own, with Jesus accepting it.
Is it not possible that you just misunderstood Scripture?



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[sawdust]

Right. Exactly!
I am saying that if Jesus (who is God and the second person of the Trinity) was present in the garden talking with Adam and Eve, then there is the possibility that His Omniscience may have been suppressed based on John 17:5 KJV, Habakkuk 2:14 KJV; 2 Corinthians 4:6 KJV.



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It's possible but I don't think it was necessary. I think it more likely the Lord was giving Adam and Eve the opportunity to "fess up" by coming to Him voluntarily rather than Him having to go find them.

 

[sawdust]

A common misapprehension of this single verse. What Jesus is referring to here is the Jewish wedding protocol "snatching of the Bride" aka the rapture.

[Mar 13:32 NKJV] 32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

[Jhn 14:2 KJV] 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Personally, I don't think that Jesus was in any way inhibited or reduced during His sojourn. Yes He had a "work" to do and this included humiliation and servanthood, but this hardly affects His omnipotence or omniscience. The truth is that only Jesus alone knows (fully and completely) infinite God the Father.... because only He is likewise infinite the Son. Only the Trinity has ALL of the information. All of it. That's why Satans schemes will always fail.

[Mat 11:27 NKJV] 27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and to whom the Son wills to reveal.

Possibly but if Jesus acted out of His own omniscience then I don't see that there was any need for Him to say He only speaks and does what He hears and sees the Father do. It strongly suggests to me Jesus relied on being led of the Spirit just as we must to walk by faith.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

It's possible but I don't think it was necessary. I think it more likely the Lord was giving Adam and Eve the opportunity to "fess up" by coming to Him voluntarily rather than Him having to go find them.

Um, yeah. It still would not literally be true if the Lord already knew. Asking Adam and Eve where they were when God already knew their exact location would not be a genuine or truthful question from God's perspective. For example, if someone hid in a closet and a family member was watching them through a security camera, yet still asked, “Where are you?” while looking at the live footage, that would not be a sincere question. In the same way, it would make no sense for God, who knows all things, to ask where they were unless something deeper was taking place (like God asking about their spiritual condition or Christ did not really know because His Omniscience was suppressed before the foundation of the world).



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[Jordon]

God DEFINITELY did not "save" Pharaoh because Pharaoh DEFINITELY did not want to be saved. Such is the pattern throughout the Bible from Cain onwards.....

Rahab, the Gibeonites, the Ninevites? Yea, they DEFINITELY wanted to be saved. So God saved them.
Such is the pattern throughout Scripture....

do you know Pharaoh whole life ?

No you don't you only have the first part of his life.

And you ain't his Judge of his salvation either.

 

[Cameron143]

The word “glory” appears only once in Philippians 2 in the KJV, referring to the future event when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Nowhere in this chapter is the word “glory” used to describe Christ giving up His glory at the Incarnation. He came down from Heaven, yes, but Philippians 2 does not say He surrendered His glory—it says He became a servant.

John 1:14 says,

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”​

​

John affirms that Christ’s glory was still present and visible to those with spiritual eyes.

The disciples also saw this glory during the Mount of Transfiguration, as recorded in Luke.

Luke 9:32 says,

“But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.”​

​

The glory that Jesus shared with the Father before the world was in John 17:5 is clearly a different kind of glory. I believe this refers to Christ’s omniscience consistent with the other two verses mentioned before.



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So...being made lower than the angels and being a servant and made human and subject to the creation that He created shouts glory to you?
Read Isaiah 6 to catch a glimpse of the glory of the Lord which Jesus had before He left heaven.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Ok @reneweddaybyday

Let's get in the same page
John 1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,

Do you see the word was with God ?

here is the full verse

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I believe what is stated in the verse.

Does his word dwell in you ?

That's the question.

His word was with him in the beginning and the word was God.

The word being with him is his ways

The meaning of the word was God means his word expresses how God was,

The word was with God,

The word was God

Which means all the word That's Jesus the man shared with us was how God was, Jesus said I can do nothing unless I see the father doing it first.

Do you see that ?

you are really all over the place here Jordon.

You ask "Does his word dwell in you ?" ...

... are you talking about what is spoken of in Col 1:27 where we are told that for those who are born again it is Christ in you, the hope of glory? In 2 Cor 13:5 we are told that if we do not know that Christ is in us, we fail the test (we are reprobate). If this is what you asking, then, yes, I know that Christ is in me.

... or are you talking about the Scriptures – that we are to study God's Word so that we are fully equipped to deal with all the issues of life? We are encouraged to be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear (1 Peter 3:15). The Scriptures reveal the Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:39) ... the Lord Jesus Christ reveals the Father (Matt 11:27). If this is what you are asking, then, yes, I study God's Word.

Anyhow it makes no difference really, but the discussion I was having was the word became flesh so that the word could dwell with us after he left to ?

The Lord Jesus Christ told His disciples that He had to leave but He would come back to dwell within.

John 14:18-23

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

vs 23 is the fullness of fellowship the born again believer is to have with the Father and the Son making Their abode within him or her.

Why did I say that that, well it was because John 1 states human will lives in the flesh.

verse please.

So now I ask why would Gods word dwell with us ?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit
.

 

[BillyBob]

@Genez

Congrats! You were the first to post on page 1000

 

[Jordon]

Imagine a man. His name is Rick, and he has a family he loves very much. One day, Rick, his loved ones, and several others are stranded at sea. A coast guard ship arrives to rescue them. The rescuer saves some of the others but passes by Rick and his family, leaving them behind to perish. When Rick asks why the coast guard refuses to save him and his loved ones, the rescuer replies, “You should be glad I’m saving these other people.”

Would that answer bring Rick comfort? Would it remind him of love, mercy, or justice? Of course not. Any person with a heart would be devastated and outraged in such a situation. May it never be, but what if (in a hypothetical parallel universe) it were you and your loved ones? Would you call that rescuer loving?

Then how can you say that God is love (1 John 4:8) and yet also believe that God is like this rescuer? It simply does not make any rational sense. Calvinism paints God in this way, but such a view cannot be reconciled with the God of Scripture. The Bible reveals a God who genuinely loves the world, who offers salvation to all, and who desires that none should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Calvinism, on the other hand, presents a God who refuses to rescue most of mankind when He easily could. That is not love. That is not justice.

Do you understand where I am coming from?
I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth using real world examples.
Even the Canaanite woman was able to make an extended parable of her own, with Jesus accepting it.
Is it not possible that you just misunderstood Scripture?



....

untill A person is saved and for a lot of families especially sibling rivalry they have a love hate relationship, and when they express love it's because there conscience has been pricked by God,

Because every unsaved person has there conscience pricked by God, and that is God going against there will,

Jesus also declares that his word, will have brother going against sister and father and mother, and that is also against there will, because some will fight the prick to there conscience, as his active word is alive in spirit, able to cut through the soul.

And like wise, Gods word is alive and active and he commands children to honour there father and mother. And he delivers that to there conscience through his word that was made flesh that dwells amongst us which is. Aive and active

And when there conscience is pricked the unsaved will express faith love kindness and everything else. But because there unsaved, any expression they make for a lot of them will have them thinking there perfect, and they fail to express love how it should be expressed, they end up expressing Jealous love, or love for money or live for gain, or love for themselves, or love because there being told to, by God pricking there conscience, and even when God has pricked there conscience it can be weeks before they express any love.

Because God is slow to anger and patient in waiting after he delivers his message.

So no get your crazy isms ego out of your head, as your the one displaying it nobody else.

Your the one saying crazy things, your the one saying your will is above God, and then attributing that to this imaginary Calvinistic person, no the crazy isms are in your head.

The sooner you start to disaplining your own will with Gods will the better it will be for you,

 

[HeIsHere]

There are many places also in the Bible where God commands things of us. Take for example the command to repent. God commands all men everywhere to repent in the New Testament. How does this work in Calvinism? Do you see "all men everywhere" as referring only to the Calvinist Elect? That doesn't make any sense. That's not the plain way in just reading the Bible.



....

In Calvinism,

as you probably know "all" does not mean "all"

"world" does not mean "world"

people are created by God with a nature which prohibits them from believing the Good News until He divinely and uniquely activates (regenerates) them before belief,

all this means that....

Christ Jesus gave false hope to all those who heard Him teach if the were not created for salvation from before time.

 

[Jordon]

verse please.
.

Human will lives in the flesh and no im not all over the place,

why was his word made flesh ?


He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[HeIsHere]

Do you believe that the heart is regenerated or born again before one can exercise faith or a belief in God?




....

That is the non-biblical belief presented on the this thread and held by Calvinists/Reformed.

Yet we are hard pressed to find clear support for this tenet, in fact this tenet is outside the Christian faith.

 

[Magenta]

Um, yeah. It still would not literally be true if the Lord already knew. Asking Adam and Eve where they were when God already knew their exact location would not be a genuine or truthful question from God's perspective. For example, if someone hid in a closet and a family member was watching them through a security camera, yet still asked, “Where are you?” while looking at the live footage, that would not be a sincere question. In the same way, it would make no sense for God, who knows all things, to ask where they were unless something deeper was taking place (like God asking about their spiritual condition or Christ did not really know because His Omniscience was suppressed before the foundation of the world).

Teachers are not being duplicitous when they ask questions they know the answer to.