Can someone here explain to me what is wrong with giving to the poor?

[HillsboroMom]

Scripture tells us that if a man has two coats, he must give one to the man who has no coats.

Scripture tells us that it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

Scripture tells us that God will give good things to the poor, and the rich he will send away empty.

Scripture commands us to care for the needy. Scripture says that those who do not will be sent to the lake of fire. That punishment is not reserved for anyone else, not even homosexuals or abortionists. Yes, those who do not care for the poor are worse than perverts and atheists.

Neither the prophets nor Jesus ever say, "Well, why are you poor? You should just pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. You're only poor because of your own poor choices. If you made better choices you would be rich, and wealth is a sign of being blessed."

Such thinking is completely antithetical to the message repeated, over and over again, throughout both Old and New Testament. Yet I hear these exact words from the mouths of many people who claim to be Christians.

Many Christians (not all ... but many, even on these very boards) are quick to condemn the gays, and the scientists, and the worldly, but there are thousands more verses about the way poor people are treated, verses against the misuse of wealth.... and don't even get me started on immigrants.... Yet too many Christians ignore these, and partake in the very behaviors denounced in Scripture. How is it okay to be haughty but not okay to be gay? Are both not equally evil in God's sight?

Or do you only condemn things that you're not guilty of yourself? After all, it's easy to condemn homosexuality, because you think it's gross, and you would never be tempted to do that yourself. But wealth? Well, that's harder to condemn, because you like having money, and you don't want to condemn that, because that means you can't seek money.

But this makes you a servant not of God, but of Mammon.

Choose this day whom you shall serve.

As for me and my house, we shall serve JHWH

 

[TheIndianGirl]

Scripture tells us that if a man has two coats, he must give one to the man who has no coats.

Scripture tells us that it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

Scripture tells us that God will give good things to the poor, and the rich he will send away empty.

Scripture commands us to care for the needy. Scripture says that those who do not will be sent to the lake of fire. That punishment is not reserved for anyone else, not even homosexuals or abortionists. Yes, those who do not care for the poor are worse than perverts and atheists.

Neither the prophets nor Jesus ever say, "Well, why are you poor? You should just pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. You're only poor because of your own poor choices. If you made better choices you would be rich, and wealth is a sign of being blessed."

Such thinking is completely antithetical to the message repeated, over and over again, throughout both Old and New Testament. Yet I hear these exact words from the mouths of many people who claim to be Christians.

Many Christians (not all ... but many, even on these very boards) are quick to condemn the gays, and the scientists, and the worldly, but there are thousands more verses about the way poor people are treated, verses against the misuse of wealth.... and don't even get me started on immigrants.... Yet too many Christians ignore these, and partake in the very behaviors denounced in Scripture. How is it okay to be haughty but not okay to be gay? Are both not equally evil in God's sight?

Or do you only condemn things that you're not guilty of yourself? After all, it's easy to condemn homosexuality, because you think it's gross, and you would never be tempted to do that yourself. But wealth? Well, that's harder to condemn, because you like having money, and you don't want to condemn that, because that means you can't seek money.

But this makes you a servant not of God, but of Mammon.

Choose this day whom you shall serve.

As for me and my house, we shall serve JHWH

I think when the Bible speaks of the poor kindly, the verses are about the legitimate poor (unable to work, disabled, etc.), not the lazy poor who are voluntarily not working (for example, the job is too lowly for them) or scamming the system. In the U.S., we have more control. However, other countries, the people may be more legitimately poor because of high unemployment rates, corruption, not many opportunities, etc.

 

[ZNP]

Scripture tells us that if a man has two coats, he must give one to the man who has no coats.

Scripture tells us that it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

Scripture tells us that God will give good things to the poor, and the rich he will send away empty.

Scripture commands us to care for the needy. Scripture says that those who do not will be sent to the lake of fire. That punishment is not reserved for anyone else, not even homosexuals or abortionists. Yes, those who do not care for the poor are worse than perverts and atheists.

Neither the prophets nor Jesus ever say, "Well, why are you poor? You should just pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. You're only poor because of your own poor choices. If you made better choices you would be rich, and wealth is a sign of being blessed."

Such thinking is completely antithetical to the message repeated, over and over again, throughout both Old and New Testament. Yet I hear these exact words from the mouths of many people who claim to be Christians.

Many Christians (not all ... but many, even on these very boards) are quick to condemn the gays, and the scientists, and the worldly, but there are thousands more verses about the way poor people are treated, verses against the misuse of wealth.... and don't even get me started on immigrants.... Yet too many Christians ignore these, and partake in the very behaviors denounced in Scripture. How is it okay to be haughty but not okay to be gay? Are both not equally evil in God's sight?

Or do you only condemn things that you're not guilty of yourself? After all, it's easy to condemn homosexuality, because you think it's gross, and you would never be tempted to do that yourself. But wealth? Well, that's harder to condemn, because you like having money, and you don't want to condemn that, because that means you can't seek money.

But this makes you a servant not of God, but of Mammon.

Choose this day whom you shall serve.

As for me and my house, we shall serve JHWH

Some people on this board have an issue with you giving to the poor? I find that very hard to believe. Why would anyone care what you did with what is yours?

 

[SophieT]

another fight looking for a place to happen

 

[HillsboroMom]

I think when the Bible speaks of the poor kindly, the verses are about the legitimate poor (unable to work, disabled, etc.), not the lazy poor who are voluntarily not working (for example, the job is too lowly for them) or scamming the system. In the U.S., we have more control. However, other countries, the people may be more legitimately poor because of high unemployment rates, corruption, not many opportunities, etc.

Ah, yes.

I remember now, Jesus said to the poor man, "But have you tried to get a job? First, go and try to get a job, and then, only after you have proven to me that you are not some lazy bum, then you will be worthy of my love."

Wait, no he didn't.

I don't recall anything in Scripture that:

• makes a distinction about why a person is poor
• indicates that one "type" of poverty is any less worthy of our care, love, or justice than any other type of poverty
• says Jesus, Paul, or any prophet asked ANYONE why they were poor before providing charity or healing.

Furthermore, thinking that anyone who is poor in the US is that way because they are "lazy" is the height of conceit, prejudice, and disdain.

98% of welfare recipients in the U.S. fit at least one of these categories, and usually more than one:

• they are under age 16 or over age 65
• they are permanently and totally disabled
• they are employed
• they are in some sort of training program to improve their skills

The remaining 2% are generally on some sort of temporary disability, mental health emergency, between jobs, or some other specific issue.

So, which one of those four categories do you think are unworthy of charity? Which would Jesus turn away?

Either you're reading a very different Bible than I am, or you are worshiping a very different God than I am.

Or both.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

Ah, yes.

I remember now, Jesus said to the poor man, "But have you tried to get a job? First, go and try to get a job, and then, only after you have proven to me that you are not some lazy bum, then you will be worthy of my love."

Wait, no he didn't.

I don't recall anything in Scripture that:

• makes a distinction about why a person is poor
• indicates that one "type" of poverty is any less worthy of our care, love, or justice than any other type of poverty
• says Jesus, Paul, or any prophet asked ANYONE why they were poor before providing charity or healing.

Furthermore, thinking that anyone who is poor in the US is that way because they are "lazy" is the height of conceit, prejudice, and disdain.

98% of welfare recipients in the U.S. fit at least one of these categories, and usually more than one:

• they are under age 16 or over age 65
• they are permanently and totally disabled
• they are employed
• they are in some sort of training program to improve their skills

The remaining 2% are generally on some sort of temporary disability, mental health emergency, between jobs, or some other specific issue.

So, which one of those four categories do you think are unworthy of charity? Which would Jesus turn away?

Either you're reading a very different Bible than I am, or you are worshiping a very different God than I am.

Or both.

The Bible has a lot to say about laziness and idleness, such as those who do not work shall not eat. Scamming the system can also be considered lying and cheating. Many people do want to go to school or get a job because they will lose their benefits. I just spoke to Uber driver who said he can only work a certain number of hours otherwise he will lose benefits. I won't speak for Jesus.

There are a lot of legitimate poor though; I wasn't thinking of kids who are dependent on their parents but yes they would be included. Students can be temporarily poor too but sometimes that involves personal decisons, such as someone who wants to pursue an advanced degree which requires years in school.

 

[Adstar]

Jesus made it very clear it is a good thing to give charity to the needy..

But you bring up gays? Why.. Are you trying to justify their sexual practices?

Yes it is good to preach to give to the poor but mixing that other stuff in just muddies the water..

 

[PennEd]

JESUS is who and what saves a person through His Gospel. NOT helping the poor. That will come as a result of being saved by Him.

Some people, even here, NEED to hear the one true Gospel unto Salvation:

THE Gospel unto Salvation:
God wrapped Himself in human flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus the Messiah. Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin. He suffered, was crucified, and died to pay OUR sin debt. He was raised to life from the grave to prove He had defeated death. If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that His Father resurrected Him to Life on the 3rd day, you WILL be saved. You will be filled, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who will empower ALL to turn from their sins. The sin of adultery, lying, stealing, homosexuality, gossip, slander, drunkenness, covetousness, etc... And most importantly the sin of DEAD works, or a moral life in an attempt to EARN Salvation. He will also equip you to love like He did and do good works for HIS Glory.

 

[Mii]

Scripture commands us to care for the needy. Scripture says that those who do not will be sent to the lake of fire. That punishment is not reserved for anyone else

Based off what? One verse?

Revelation 21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." KJV

The NASB (and the NIV) use sexually immoral instead of whoremongers and abominable is unclear but it completely refutes what you posted. That "only" people that didn't feed the hungry or clothe the naked shall not inherit...you can't take one scripture as a stand alone. Line upon line, precept upon precept. You can fall into some serious error that way (and I do mean that sincerely) and get wayyy off track unintentionally. There are also more scriptures about the lake of fire and the second death if you are interested. Maybe you got a bee in your bonnet and took up the cause to champion, but it's important to remember other things at the same time.


I agree with @Adstar that you bringing up homosexuality/abortion muddies the water. Your whole post comes across as strictly accusatory and rather than start a calm thread about the spirit behind one's charity and that it isn't about what we give but rather where our heart is (widows mite for example, cheerful giver...etc. etc.) you instead seem to just assume that all Christians think this way. May I ask why?



What if you don't ever give a dime but donate labor to various ministries that are already endowed with donations from people that did give? Is that worthless? Is my volunteered time not equivalent to giving money? I don't make enough to give beyond when I see someone in need in person (like someone that asks me for food or a ride someplace)...occasionally I'll give $10 or so to a church when they are hosting a missionary but I hardly ever give money to churches for personal reasons. I give to causes rarely or to support ministries but it does happen.

I look for ways to give my "2 pennies" creatively and those opportunities do present themselves, but I've long ago stopped feeling guilted into giving cash.


Hopefully we can have some sort of discussion about this and I apologize if I'm sounding a tad harsh but when someone misrepresents scripture (even on accident) and when they are coming across as though everyone is wrong and they are the only one that has it right...it doesn't sit well with me. If this wasn't your intent and it was an honest mistake, then I apologize. Care to continue on a different note?

 

[ResidentAlien]

John 5:6-7 says: "When Jesus saw this man lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, 'Do you wish to become well?' The sick man answered Him, 'Sir, I do not have a man, so that whenever the water is stirred up, he may put me into the pool; but while I am coming, another steps down before me.' "

Jesus first asks him if he wants to be well. A lot of people don't want to be well; they prefer letting others take care of them. Next, the man doesn't answer but makes excuses for why he hasn't been made well, rather than answering Jesus directly: "Yes! I want to be well."

That said, you have a great point. God cares very much for the poor and we should make it a priority to help them. It's sinful to indulge ourselves while others suffer. But we should use prudence, not casting our pearls before swine.

 

[HillsboroMom]

The Bible has a lot to say about laziness and idleness, such as those who do not work shall not eat.

Indeed, it does.

And while many so-called Christians are quick to use this verse when poor people are not working, why do they never bring it up for trust-fund babies who earn their income through capital gains, interest income, and basically being lucky enough to have been born to rich parents? If Christians really believed in this, then they would have no problem with the Democrats' tax suggestions to raise taxes on the 1%, since virtually ALL of those earnings are completely unearned. (And for the record, I am NOT a Democrat, but I agree with some of their policies, and this is one of them: investment income should be taxed at a higher rate than earned income, period. This is 100% in agreement with Scripture. Strangely enough, the loudest voices in opposition to such suggestions are Christians. So I'm sorry, but when you claim that verse, it seems empty, when so many other Christians are so vehemently against it.)

Scamming the system can also be considered lying and cheating.

Indeed, it can. And do you have any evidence that poor people scam the system at a greater rate than others? In fact, there is significant evidence to the contrary. The biggest scams (see this: https://www.usa.gov/common-scams-frauds) are by wealthy people and organizations. Trump is one of the biggest scam artists there is. He has swindled Americans out of billions of dollars through fake non-profits, including a fake university, and has basically gotten away with it with no repercussion. He has repeatedly lied, before becoming president, while president, and to this day. And yet a majority of white Americans who claim to be Christian still support him. So excuse me if your claims that Christians don't like people who scam the system ring hollow. Evidence suggests otherwise.

Many people do want to go to school or get a job because they will lose their benefits.

I'm guessing you meant "don't"?

Though this is true either way.

Sure, there are people who would rather live off of the government teat than make something better of themselves. And yes, I would be against those people getting a dime more than what they need for minimum subsistence.

But there are a lot of people who want to make something better of themselves, and lack the ability, or the resources, or the opportunity, or any number of reasons why they can't.

There are people who have been beating the pavement looking for a job and won't be given one, even in this climate, because a lot of employers won't hire someone with a criminal record, even though the person has reformed themselves. (I have hired many ex-cons. Some of them blew it and got fired within a week. Others ended up being awesome. Kind of like any other segment of the population.)

There are people who have mental or physical disabilities that prevent them from doing work, but they can't get on disability, because the system requires a person to do things that people with these disabilities can't do.

There are people who got evicted because there was a medical emergency in the family, and now they can't rent, because no one will rent to them. Once they lose housing, they have trouble keeping or finding a job, because they don't have access to showers or clean clothes, things you need to work or interview.

There are a million reasons why people are poor. Being lazy is very rarely one of them.

Of the thousands of people I know, only one is what you would describe -- a "lazy poor" person. Yet, I can name over a dozen rich lazy people just off the top of my head, people who live off of inherited money and don't work.

As soon as Christians consistently speak out against lazy rich, I will accept that they take the verse "if someone doesn't work, neither should they eat" seriously. Until then, they can take that verse and stuff it, because their actions show very clearly that they DON'T believe it.

And again, I am not meaning to convict all Christians. Just those who say one thing with their mouths but practice the opposite with their actions.

Like anyone who still supports Trump.

 

[HillsboroMom]

But you bring up gays? Why.. Are you trying to justify their sexual practices?

Why would you ask that? Is there something you need to confess?

If so, know that Jesus forgives all sins. I don't need to hear any confessions, but Jesus loves you, no matter what.

 

[HillsboroMom]

JESUS is who and what saves a person through His Gospel. NOT helping the poor. That will come as a result of being saved by Him.

AMEN!!!!

So well said!

 

[HillsboroMom]

Based off what? One verse?

Umm, no.

Off the top of my head, there are at least 10-20 passages in the Old Testament -- Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Amos come to mind.

Then in the New Testament, pretty much all of the Gospels. Luke 2 is a good place to start. And while Paul doesn't hammer on it as much as others, he certainly mentions it more than once.

you can't take one scripture as a stand alone. Line upon line, precept upon precept. You can fall into some serious error that way (and I do mean that sincerely) and get wayyy off track unintentionally.

I agree whole-heartedly.

And when you look at Scripture as a whole, one message that gets hammered on, over and over and over, is how we treat the poor. It's prevalent throughout both testaments.

I agree with @Adstar that you bringing up homosexuality/abortion muddies the water.

If your waters are muddy, that's your problem. Jesus can purify those waters if you let him. But you have to be willing to let him.

you instead seem to just assume that all Christians think this way. May I ask why?

That's fair. I admit I sometimes get angry. I have said several times that I don't mean "All Christians," and I'm only referring to Christians who say one thing with their mouths but practice something quite different through their actions. But just as the ones I'm accusing, saying something doesn't necessarily mean much, if the spirit in which I'm saying it doesn't reflect it.

I know not all Christians think that way. I know from personal experience. My parents raised me other than that way. The church I grew up in was not that way. And until I was in college, I had very little experience that there were any Christians at all who didn't think the way I was raised to believe.

But over the last 40 or so years, I've seen a growing number of Christians who seem to be "CINOs." People who hold their arms up in the air on Sunday as if they're being touched by the Spirit, but then they hold their noses in the air the rest of the week. It seems to have culminated 5 years ago with the man they put in the white house, a thoroughly disgusting man. Crude, rude, unChristian in every way. He claimed to have been "converted," but his behavior gave no evidence of that. He mocked poor people, he mocked non-white people, he mocked people who were disabled, he even mocked veterans. And yet a majority of people who claimed to be Christian loved him.

That certainly wasn't the biggest problem, but it was the clearest evidence that American Christianity had sold its soul.

What if you don't ever give a dime but donate labor to various ministries that are already endowed with donations from people that did give? Is that worthless?....{snip}

I'm sorry if my comments implied they were. By "giving to the poor" I in no way mean that each individual must give financially to poor people. On the contrary, "giving to the poor" must be an attitude, not necessarily an action. Donations of time, in a way, are even more godly. You can always earn more money, but you will never get time back. Once you've given your time to someone, it's something you will never be able to get back, and they will always have.

"Giving to the poor" doesn't mean writing a check on Sunday and then crossing the street to avoid them the next day. People who do that aren't really doing God's work.

Like you said, if you never give a dime, but you sit with them, eat with them, hang out with the sinners and the prostitutes, like Jesus did, THAT is charity.

Hopefully we can have some sort of discussion about this and I apologize if I'm sounding a tad harsh

I appreciate your tone. You are right to call me out for being judgmental. Only God can judge.

I don't think I misrepresented Scripture in any way. And I certainly don't think I'm the only one in the world who has it right, and everyone else is wrong. Like I said, while growing up (in the 70s), most Christians -- at least the ones I knew -- were like me. Maybe I was just lucky to be surrounded by good people. Or maybe I was just naïve and sheltered. And today, I surround myself, as much as possible, with like-minded Christians. But there are too many who seem not to get it, and it bothers me.

 

[Mii]

But then what do you do with the verse I posted? @HillsboroMom

I mean, I'd really like to further respond to the topic because I think it's a good one. If you choose not to address how your statement in the OP is entirely contradicted that ONLY people who are selfish have their part in the lake of fire then how on a Christian forum can I continue to respond?

we can be selfish even by withholding our spiritual gifts from the body of Christ...or lazy about it which does sort of imply something.

Maybe on a secular forum it might be different because I would just assume you weren't considering other verses and that since most people would likely not be believers it wouldn't be as relevant. Here though it is from my perspective. I would equally have a great issue if someone had an excellent topic and put in some anti-homosexual phrase without the proper context. Like, "Liars go to hell!" So do people who are generally truthful and very much value integrity.

Scripture speaks MUCH about sexual sins and If you count them all up I'd be amazed if giving and sexual immorality weren't close enough to not brush it under the rug as unimportant.

 

[HillsboroMom]

But then what do you do with the verse I posted? @HillsboroMom

I mean, I'd really like to further respond to the topic because I think it's a good one.

As do I, and I will try to address your question.

If you choose not to address how your statement in the OP is entirely contradicted that ONLY people who are selfish have their part in the lake of fire....

You misunderstood me if you thought this is what I was saying in my OP.

I did not intend to imply that "only selfish people will be in the lake of fire." I do not believe that, and I don't think my OP reflects that.

Scripture speaks MUCH about sexual sins and If you count them all up I'd be amazed if giving and sexual immorality weren't close enough to not brush it under the rug as unimportant.

You know what? I think I'd like to challenge you on that.

It's not that I don't think sexual sins are that important. I do think we, as a people of God, are called to be sexually pure. I would never argue that promiscuity is okay with God, or that this "do whatever feels good" that you hear a lot today is at all in line with a Godly life.

But I don't think sexual sins are spoken about nearly as often in Scripture as sins against one's neighbor. And this is precisely my problem.

Here's one easy example: Why did God destroy Sodom & Gomorrah? Well, if you ask some Christians, they'll say, "It's because they were gay. See? God hates gays."

But Scripture says something quite different.

Eze 16:49 says “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."

Not one mention of homosexuality. But look at that: a command to help those in need.

So, are you going to believe "some Christians" or are you going to believe the Bible?

I can't speak for you, but I know who I trust.

In fact, there are precious few verses about sexual sin of any kind. And yes, gay sin and all manners of promiscuity are detestable in God's sight. I'm not saying it isn't. Rather, I'm saying Scripture spends a lot more time telling us we need to help the poor and needy, and a lot less time talking about sex, than most American Christians seem to do.

It seems to me that many (not all, but far too many) American Christians like to rally on and on about how evil homosexuality is, and then abortion (which is also sin, IMHO), but then they ignore virtually everything else. Because it's easy not to be homosexual when you're not homosexual, and it's easy not to get an abortion when you're a man. But those other commandments are hard. And Americans tend to like to take the easy way out.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

And while many so-called Christians are quick to use this verse when poor people are not working, why do they never bring it up for trust-fund babies who earn their income through capital gains, interest income, and basically being lucky enough to have been born to rich parents? If Christians really believed in this, then they would have no problem with the Democrats' tax suggestions to raise taxes on the 1%, since virtually ALL of those earnings are completely unearned.

Both scenarios are different. About trust-fund babies/rich people living off their investments or inheritance, they are living off their own earnings or own family's money. In that case, there is nothing wrong with being lazy/unemployed and living off that money. However, being good Christians they should be voluntarily charitable. People who live off benefits are living off their neighbor's money, which is fine if they are legitimately poor. Benefits are specifically for people who are going through a hard time. However, in that situation they do not have the option to be lazy/unemployed and not looking as that would be scamming.

 

[HillsboroMom]

In that case, there is nothing wrong with being lazy/unemployed and living off that money.

So you think when the Bible says "If you don't work, you shouldn't eat," it only refers to "those other" people, not people like you.

When Jesus condemns sinners, he must be talking about OTHER people, not you. You're perfect. It's OTHER people who have problems.

This is exactly the kind of two-faced hypocritical crap that Jesus absolutely hates.

And so do I.

You, and those who think like you, should be ashamed of yourselves. You're not, and probably never will be. Which is part of t he problem.

Fortunately for you, thanks to Jesus, God will forgive you.

I keep praying that I am able to forgive you. I'm working on it, but I'm not there yet.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

There are a million reasons why people are poor. Being lazy is very rarely one of them.

Of the thousands of people I know, only one is what you would describe -- a "lazy poor" person. Yet, I can name over a dozen rich lazy people just off the top of my head, people who live off of inherited money and don't work.

I know/encountered a few people who are intelligent who are not pursuing more things in their life or working more hours as they would then lose their benefits. This is the example I have more commonly witnessed.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

So you think when the Bible says "If you don't work, you shouldn't eat," it only refers to "those other" people, not people like you.

When Jesus condemns sinners, he must be talking about OTHER people, not you. You're perfect. It's OTHER people who have problems.

This is exactly the kind of two-faced hypocritical crap that Jesus absolutely hates.

And so do I.

You, and those who think like you, should be ashamed of yourselves. You're not, and probably never will be. Which is part of t he problem.

Fortunately for you, thanks to Jesus, God will forgive you.

I keep praying that I am able to forgive you. I'm working on it, but I'm not there yet.

You are making your arguments overly personal. I am not a one percenter as you seem you imply.

Under Biblical standards, both the rich and the poor should not be lazy/idle. What we are talking about is politics/tax systems, etc. that is different. Under these "worldly" systems, the rich are not taking their money from their neighbor, so that is allowed and they can live however way they want as long as they following the usual laws/regulations which are set the government.