Calvinists are preaching a false message .
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Why do Calvinists quote this verse to support their view ? isn't it Unconditional election?
1cor 1
26¶For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
would they be ' chosen based on being ' unwise ' , weak , foolish ,base , despised ect ? Are these not condition s ?
1cor 1
26¶For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
would they be ' chosen based on being ' unwise ' , weak , foolish ,base , despised ect ? Are these not condition s ?
People are separated from God due to being unregenerated . When Jesus went to the cross he paid for all sins in full . The atonment needs the resurrection. No one was saved apart from the resurrection. The death of Christ did not regenerate anyone. It didn't Glorify anything or anyone. When Jesus cried out " it is finished " 2000 years ago ,you didn't suddenly become regenerated or suddenly become Glorified . The Atonement is a part of the process. Ya need it of course . A person needs more in order to be saved . The ACCESS to the Grace is not through Grace. its by FAITH .
Romans 5:2
“By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”
No, the whole world has not been reconciled having their sins paid for. Salvation is only activated when one believes. Only those who believe have been reconciled to God. Those who don't believe simply remain in an unreconciled state.
Jesus only paid the penalty for the sins for those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began and whom God predestined and foreknew. The people who don't believe throughout every generation, their names were never written in the book of life because God did not elect them for salvation. Therefore, they will never come to Christ because they are not His sheep and therefore, the Father is not going to draw them to His Son.
"that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them." - 2 Cor.5:19
The world = Those who were foreknown, predestined and whose names were written in the book of life before the world began.
Consider the following scriptures:
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Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “It was necessary to speak the word of God to you first. But since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed for eternal] life believed.
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And all who were appointed for eternal life believed. This would infer predestination. God's foreknowing. They believed because they were appointed for eternal life and that by God's choosing. The others did not believe because they were not appointed for eternal live. Below is another example:
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To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
and,
“A stone of stumbling
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed.
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They were appointed to disobey the word, which once again demonstrates God's foreknowing and predestination. Regarding this truth, consider still the following:
"and all who dwell on earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. - Revelation 13:8
"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come." - Revelation 17:8
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The two scriptures above are very revealing in that, they reveal that the inhabitants of the earth during the time of God's wrath, whose names were not written in the book of life before the world began, will worship the beast.
This reveals that there were names that were not written in the book of life and also that there were names that were written in, with it taking place before the world even began. This also speaks about God's foreknowing and predestining. You can't get around these scriptural truths. You add them all up and you see that it is by God's Sovereign that people are saved and some are not and that by God's will and purpose. For the scripture says "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." This means that there are those that God chose to save and those that He didn't.
It is God who did the choosing of who He would offer salvation to and that before the world began. And as the scriptures make clear, there are those who would not believe and that because they were not appointed to.
Eisegesis
Eisegesis is when a person interprets and reads information into the text that is not there.
1) Who appointed them ? Show me where it says God appointed them please? or anyone for that matter ?
2) This is what 2 cor 5 ,19 ACTUALLY SAYS .
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. This is what it actually says .
3) Its From not Before . Huge difference .
As I explained through the scripture, 'the World' is referring to those in the world who were appointed to salvation before the world began. You need to look all the scriptures that I provided, such as Acts 13:28, 1 Pet.2:8, Rev.13:8, Rev.17:8. Consider the following:
"For God so loved the world (those predestined before the world began) that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life"
Notice what Jesus said to the Jews:
"If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.
Because they were not Jesus' sheep they did not believe. This also speaks of foreknowing and predestination.
Everyone, including those who are saved, deserve to be condemnation in the lake of fire. Therefore, God is not being unfair by saving some and not others, because those that He is not saving were already guilty of sin and thereby unreconciled.
I got the idea that the death of Christ saves from the following scriptures:
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"
"He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." - Romans 4:25
It is faith that Christ shed His blood in payment for our sins that we have forgiveness of sins and eternal life. For as the scripture states, "unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins." It is the righteous blood of Christ that covers our sins.
Well, that would be pretty good trick, except the scripture says that they were chosen for salvation before the world began. That being true, how could they have believed before anything was even created.
For those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began and who were foreknown and predestined, everyone of those when they heard the word of God were in-birthed with faith and believed. The Spirit confirmed with their spirits the truth of what they heard and they believed and are still believing. Those whose names were not written in the book of life throughout all of history and were not predestined, will not believe because that is what they were appointed for.
I'm just trying to get you to understand from the scriptures the truth of this matter. Many do not like the idea of God as the One doing the choosing and reject it, just as you are. But the fact is, salvation is by God's will and purpose, not by man's desires or efforts.
Having sins paid for ( reconciled) 2000 years ago ,is not Salvation . You did not exist 2000 years ago when the world was reconciled. When Jesus said " it is finished " on the cross were you saved ? Of course not . But you sins were paid for . But in order to BE saved , I would not call it ' activation ' but rather obeying a command to believe the Gospel through the conviction of the Holy Spirit which he is convicting the world of not Believing on Jesus . Not random sins ( That Jesus already paid for ) but specifically this :
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12¶I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)
Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)
Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)
”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept. It is therefore senseless to pit it against “died to make men savable” since the premise is false to start with. This false dichotomy indicates confusion about what saves.
Sinners are born of God by the will of God after they receive Christ. (Jn. 1:12-13)
Romans 9 (New King James Version)
22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Sorry I just believe what the bible actually says in the context of the Authors intent . Call me crazy lol .
Why do you go backwards to verses before the cross to try establish how we are saved today ? I find this interesting ? could you elaborate the thinking behind this please ?
Why do you limit an all powerful God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit's plan of salvation for God's chosen humanity, whose plan of chosen humanity's salvation, transcends all time and space, but for you, only to your certain limiting times and spaces?
What concept is this below:
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I posted on this already, but I'll repost it. It is not God looking ahead in all of history to see who would and wouldn't believe. for that would put salvation in the hands of mankind. The foreknowing and predestining is done according to God's will and purpose and not by our own efforts or desires, as revealed below:
"So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
I also covered the above, by presenting the scriptures that demonstrate predestination:
"When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed
"They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed. (see also Rev.13:8, 17:8)
When you read the above and combine it with the other scriptures, you understand that "ANY" is in reference to those who were chosen from before the beginning of the world. It is not including those whose names were not written in the book of life and neither those who were not predestined. In speaking to the Jewish leaders, Jesus told them that they did not believe in Him because they were not His sheep, which would also demonstrated God's Sovereign choice. Below is an excerpt from Got Questions.com regarding this issue of salvation being in the hands of men or being by God's Sovereign choice and which I agree with, because it is what I concluded from my own studies:
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Question: "What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?"
Answer: Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.” Many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically.
The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.
The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23) and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are receiving what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some.
If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to choose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!”
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Actually it is, No one can snatch them out of My Father's hand. 'them' being those who were predestined.
The ' world ' meaning surely comes from the bible. It sounds like you have an understanding of ' world ' coming from outside scripture. Do you have a verse which says ' world ' in the same way your using ? And with that , how given the context of 2 cor 5 , you see verse 19 . I don't mean how you see verse 19 isolated out of context ,but how Paul is wanting to say to those at Corinthians, something about how the ' World of the elect ' relates to his point ?
1 Timothy 2 (New King James Version)
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/if-god-wants-everyone-saved-why-isnt-everyone-saved.html
Romans 9 (New King James Version)
22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
What we regularly see is ' proof texts 'lined up one after another without any context, from different timelines , different Authors, different audiences, without reguard to before the cross , after the cross, before the giving of the Holy Spirit, after the giving of the Holy spirit , before the resurrection or after . This needs to be challenged. When someone bombard s you with a list of individual verses with ' buzz words and trigger words ,ask for context, check the context and everytime you will see it does not say what they are saying it ' teaches ' .
Hi Throughfaith,
Why do you think that Jesus ”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept (your own words)?
Why do you think that Jesus ”Die(d) to save” is not a Bible phrase or concept (your own words)?
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48¶And when the Gentiles HEARD THIS THEY WERE GLAD , and GLORIFIED the WORD of the Lord: and as many as were ordained ( Calvinist trigger) to eternal life believed.
Notice who is ordaining ? Does it say ' God ' anywhere? ..Why would you believe its God when it doesn't say God did anything here ? THEY ORDAINED THEMSELVES to believe . THEMSELVES ..as that is what it SAYS !! .
The contrast is ,those Jews chose to reject and those Gentiles disposed THEMSELVES to believe. THEY WANTED THE MESSAGE . Here it is ( WHAT IT SAYS ) : When you read from the beginning of the chapter , he's preaching to them about Jesus..Notice what happens? The jews reject and look what the gentiles do . They dispose themselves ...here :
42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath
They want to hear the message again.