Calvinism and Context?

[Duskey]

Here is boilerplate scriptural doctrine in a nutshell:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Does anyone see "the elect" in that verse? If not, that false teaching should be banned by those who hold to it. Indeed, they should put on sackcloth and ashes and repent for perverting the Gospel. See the book of Jonah.

If God predestined everyone then Jesus acted the fool with His words found in Luke 17:2 regarding causing people to stumble.

 

[cv5]

How does the above answer my question of how God judges the non elect in Calvinism when they had no choice?

The one who rejects Me and does not receive My word has a judge; on the last day the Word that I have spoken will serve as judge (John 12:48).

Eph 2:12
"remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world"

Is Paul implying that in former times, those outside the Mosaic Covenant were "without hope and without God"? As if to say that back then, all of the unconverted gentiles (being born in the wrong place at the wrong time) were born as vessels of wrath headed for inevitable judgment?

Is it also true that God, for no other reason than due to His mercy, His Sovereign gracious choice, ELECTED a people for his Name, Israel?

And then, out of the whole nation, truly only a subset (a remnant) were chosen as the spiritual seed of Abraham?

Far be it for me to call down Gods judgment on any man, or to do nothing less than beg for Gods extended mercy and long-suffering upon all. This I do. This we do.

But let us not a discount, let us not ignore, the fact that it is God's willful intercession to save that is the salient factor and final word on salvation. Without it all men would be lost.

 

[EleventhHour]

The free-will philosophy (which is unbiblical) holds to the first conclusion. That God is impotent. Mens Wills over-ride Gods Will in this philosophy.

There is no overriding God's will. God is not stingy with salvation as you paint Him out to be.

MY BIBLE reads...................... "and the spirit and the bride say come and let him that heareth say come and let him that is thirsty come and

whosoever will let him take the water of life freely"

And this is Calvinism is wrong right out of the gate no understanding of the plan of redemption ... and the sovereignty of God.

 

[cv5]

All you need to do is read the bible. Its all in there.

Why did God create the Caananites? The Egyptians? The Amalekites? The Philistines?

Were they held accountable for their unbelief? Yes.


Its throughout the WHOLE Bible. Theres the elect and the non-elect. Believers and unbelievers. How can you read the bible and not see it??? How can you live in the world and not see it??

Because it is SO evident there is only ONE of two conclusions to be made. 1. God is impotent and CANNOT save those He chooses to Save. Or 2. God is Powerful to Save and Saves 100% of all the people He chooses to Save.

The free-will philosophy (which is unbiblical) holds to the first conclusion. That God is impotent. Mens Wills over-ride Gods Will in this philosophy.

In Calvinism, and biblically based theology, God is Powerful to Save and Saves 100% of all the people He chooses to Save.



Its not difficult at all for someone who reads the bible and is actually saved to reject the free-will philosophy.

Amen. Speaking in practical terms, if anybody is ACTUALLY going to be saved, it's going to have to be God that is doing it. The task of saving ourselves is far beyond our spiritual pay-grade.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No that's not what I said or the conclusion I came too. Will you folks please take the time to read a post fully.

I assure you that I did indeed read your post fully. I read it a number of times, so as to endeavor to accurately ascertain your point (perhaps I didn't achieve my goal, but according to what you have put in THIS post, I DO believe I accurately "understood" your point).

My point (in response) would be (again), that you have pre-supposed "just WHAT" was that "PURPOSE" being spoken of in 1:11 (this word used more than once in Ephesians, by the way).

Your view is that the "PURPOSE" was that (before time) God chose certain individuals to be saved (leaving others to damnation).

My view is that the "PURPOSE" (being spoken of in Eph) has more to do with God's plan (for 'this present age [singular]') for an entity [for lack of a better term] "destined [and called 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' (saved during 'this present age [singular]')] to be 'joint-heirs with Christ'

I was not even discussing Eph. 1:11. In that verse "counsel" of His own will, is magnified in the context with, "according to the purpose of Him" , thus a Decree is in focus here. As such, it cannot be rejected.

True, He will indeed have "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" as "*joint-heirs with Christ"

"* joint-heirs" [heirs-->] from "G2818 - kleronomos" = "an heir, with inheritance determined by lot"...

so... "IN HIM in whom also we have been lot-cast [G2820]..."

[will come back later when I have more time to post... gotta run!]

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Our obtaining an inheritance, is because God predestined believers according to His Purpose. That Purpose came out of His Sovereign counsel by His own will. The counsel of His own will, means it excluded anyone or thing from being apart of the decision making process.

 

[jackrosie]

Amen. Speaking in practical terms, if anybody is ACTUALLY going to be saved, it's going to have to be God that is doing it. The task of saving ourselves is far beyond our spiritual pay-grade.

Amen!!.....I don’t understand how anyone can save themselves......

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I assure you that I did indeed read your post fully. I read it a number of times, so as to endeavor to accurately ascertain your point (perhaps I didn't achieve my goal, but according to what you have put in THIS post, I DO believe I accurately "understood" your point).

My point (in response) would be (again), that you have pre-supposed "just WHAT" was that "PURPOSE" being spoken of in 1:11 (this word used more than once in Ephesians, by the way).

Your view is that the "PURPOSE" was that (before time) God chose certain individuals to be saved (leaving others to damnation).

My view is that the "PURPOSE" (being spoken of in Eph) has more to do with God's plan (for 'this present age [singular]') for an entity [for lack of a better term] "destined [and called 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' (saved during 'this present age [singular]')] to be 'joint-heirs with Christ'

True, He will indeed have "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" as "*joint-heirs with Christ"

"* joint-heirs" [heirs-->] from "G2818 - kleronomos" = "an heir, with inheritance determined by lot"...
so... "IN HIM in whom also we have been lot-cast [G2820]..."
[will come back later when I have more time to post... gotta run!]

...meant to add...

[quoting from BibleHub]

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2820 klēróō (from 2819 /klḗros, "to cast lots") – properly, make a choice when assisted by casting lots (cf. S. Zodhiates, Dict); to appoint (assign) by lot-casting. See 2818 (klēronómos).

2820 /klēróō ("assign by divine lot-cast"), is only used in Eph 1:11 where it is often translated "obtained an inheritance." The Greek text literally reads, "In whom (Christ), indeed we were lot-cast (2820 /klēróō), having already been pre-horizoned (4309 /proorízō, aorist participle) according to (divine) purpose, of the one energizing all things according to the counsel (1012 /boulḗ) arising from His will (2307 /thélēma)."

[The above rendering regards the Greek genitive as "subjective."]

[end quoting from BibleHub; bold mine]

https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/1-11.htm - Eph1:11

 

[cv5]

I assure you that I did indeed read your post fully. I read it a number of times, so as to endeavor to accurately ascertain your point (perhaps I didn't achieve my goal, but according to what you have put in THIS post, I DO believe I accurately "understood" your point).

My point (in response) would be (again), that you have pre-supposed "just WHAT" was that "PURPOSE" being spoken of in 1:11 (this word used more than once in Ephesians, by the way).

Your view is that the "PURPOSE" was that (before time) God chose certain individuals to be saved (leaving others to damnation).

My view is that the "PURPOSE" (being spoken of in Eph) has more to do with God's plan (for 'this present age [singular]') for an entity [for lack of a better term] "destined [and called 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' (saved during 'this present age [singular]')] to be 'joint-heirs with Christ'



True, He will indeed have "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" as "*joint-heirs with Christ"

"* joint-heirs" [heirs-->] from "G2818 - kleronomos" = "an heir, with inheritance determined by lot"...

so... "IN HIM in whom also we have been lot-cast [G2820]..."

[will come back later when I have more time to post... gotta run!]

I am not so sure about your theory.
There are so many and so many types of personal pronouns being used in these passages in Ephesians that perhaps "individuals" is the best interpretation.

 

[cv5]

...meant to add...

[quoting from BibleHub]

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2820 klēróō (from 2819 /klḗros, "to cast lots") – properly, make a choice when assisted by casting lots (cf. S. Zodhiates, Dict); to appoint (assign) by lot-casting. See 2818 (klēronómos).

2820 /klēróō ("assign by divine lot-cast"), is only used in Eph 1:11 where it is often translated "obtained an inheritance." The Greek text literally reads, "In whom (Christ), indeed we were lot-cast (2820 /klēróō), having already been pre-horizoned (4309 /proorízō, aorist participle) according to (divine) purpose, of the one energizing all things according to the counsel (1012 /boulḗ) arising from His will (2307 /thélēma)."

[The above rendering regards the Greek genitive as "subjective."]

[end quoting from BibleHub; bold mine]

https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/1-11.htm - Eph1:11

Very interesting. So is this passage implying that being saved is like winning THE lottery?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Very interesting. So is this passage implying that being saved is like winning THE lottery?

No. The point is NOT to say "you might get lucky [to be saved]"... it is saying, "IN HIM/CHRIST in whom also we have been lot-cast" [positional/legal truths]



____________

and, oh boy, I must be really getting distracted [here where I am, today ], as I had meant to also add:

[from BibleHub]

[re: a word in Eph3:6... but see vv.4-6 (quoted below)]

HELPS Word-studies
4789 sygklēronómos (from 4862 /sýn, "closely identified with" and 2818 /klēronómos, "an heir, with inheritance determined by lot") – properly, joint-heir; used of believers sharing in the inheritance of the heavenly Father with (through) the chief heir, Jesus Christ. See 2818 (klēronomos).

[end quoting from BIbleHub; bold and underline mine]

____________

we should understand these words (related to each other) in the context of Ephesians.

It is "IN HIM" (not apart from Him, like, on our own, or something... or "chance-y". No.)


_____

"3 that He made known to me the mystery by revelation, just as I have written before in brief, 4 which, by reading, you are able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as now it has been revealed in the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets, 6 that the Gentiles are joint-heirs, and a joint-body, and joint-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the gospel, 7 of which ..."

 

[cv5]

There is no overriding God's will. God is not stingy with salvation as you paint Him out to be.

MY BIBLE reads...................... "and the spirit and the bride say come and let him that heareth say come and let him that is thirsty come and

whosoever will let him take the water of life freely"

And this is Calvinism is wrong right out of the gate no understanding of the plan of redemption ... and the sovereignty of God.

Beautiful passages.
Isa 55:1
"Come, all of you who thirst, come to the waters; and you without money, come, buy, and eat! Come, buy wine and milk, without money and without cost!

BTW, in Rev 22:17, "the one who desires" is a far better fit than "whosoever".
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/22-17.htm

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

P.S. (to add to my last post)... "as now it has been revealed in the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets" ... which phrase "apostles and prophets "(written in this order) always means NT apostles and prophets.

 

[cv5]

No. The point is NOT to say "you might get lucky [to be saved]"... it is saying, "IN HIM/CHRIST in whom also we have been lot-cast" [positional/legal truths]



____________

and, oh boy, I must be really getting distracted [here where I am, today ], as I had meant to also add:

[from BibleHub]

[re: a word in Eph3:6... but see vv.4-6 (quoted below)]

HELPS Word-studies
4789 sygklēronómos (from 4862 /sýn, "closely identified with" and 2818 /klēronómos, "an heir, with inheritance determined by lot") – properly, joint-heir; used of believers sharing in the inheritance of the heavenly Father with (through) the chief heir, Jesus Christ. See 2818 (klēronomos).

[end quoting from BIbleHub; bold and underline mine]

____________

we should understand these words (related to each other) in the context of Ephesians.

It is "IN HIM" (not apart from Him, like, on our own, or something... or "chance-y". No.)


_____

"3 that He made known to me the mystery by revelation, just as I have written before in brief, 4 which, by reading, you are able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as now it has been revealed in the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets, 6 that the Gentiles are joint-heirs, and a joint-body, and joint-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the gospel, 7 of which ..."

Lol...No no that's not what I was intending to say actually. What I was intending to say was that election to salvation is not random, it is just the opposite. It was set forth in eternity past by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God.

I don't want to read anything into the text so help me out here.

 

[cv5]

I am still waiting to receive response to the question I posed a while back, that being:

Was there ever a plan B for Judas? Was it ever possible for Judas to have had a different outcome for his life than what was prophesied in scripture?

 

[cv5]

What is to account for this? The determined purpose and foreknowledge of God? Divine enlightenment? Or the will and discernment of man?

Matt 13:11
And answering He said to them, "Because it has been granted to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it has not been granted.

Matt 13:16:17
But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous mendesired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

 

[EleventhHour]

IN HIM/CHRIST

They do not want to see this... however this is the focus of the verse.

 

[EleventhHour]

I am still waiting to receive response to the question I posed a while back, that being:

Was there ever a plan B for Judas? Was it ever possible for Judas to have had a different outcome for his life than what was prophesied in scripture?

God knowing the choices that Judas would make is not God MAKING those choices for Judas.

God is outside of time.

 

[EleventhHour]

Amen!!.....I don’t understand how anyone can save themselves......

And no one has stated this.

 

[cv5]

They do not want to see this... however this is the focus of the verse.

I think we need more than a one-liner. Please expand on this theory for us you don't mind.

 

[jackrosie]

They do not want to see this... however this is the focus of the verse.

We don’t want to see what?....can you explain further please,thank you.