Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace
- Thread starter IsaiahA
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes, it does. She is the Elect Bride of Christ.
Those under the blood of Jesus are corporately referred to as "The Elect".
1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”
Peter is here addressing the Church, which is indeed predestined for Heaven. God foreknew who would choose to come in and abide.
Every time I hear the name Polycarp it makes me think of some kind of weird synthetic fish.
right ... born again, but spiritually immature (Paul refers to them as carnal in chapter 3) ... not ready for strong meat.
.
Here is a glorious aspect of this mystery revealed.....
1Co 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Ephesians 3:20-21 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
.
In 1 Cor 2, the context changes from the gospel to the mystery, the hidden wisdom at 1 Cor 2:6.
1 Corinthians 2:
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Jesus Christ, and Him crucified = gospel
1 Corinthians 2:
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [of full age, mature]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom [the gospel was never hid], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The things spoken of in vss 6-14 which are spiritually discerned are enumerated in the verses:
vs 6 – the wisdom which was discussed among the mature believers ... the gospel was taught in the general congregation (vss 1-2).
vs 7 – the wisdom of God in a mystery ... this wisdom was kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25); and in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:5); and from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God (Eph 3:9); and which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest (Col 1:26). Again, the gospel was never hid ... the gospel is proclaimed throughout all of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
vs 8 – if the devil and his minions had known the mystery, the hidden wisdom, they never would have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.
vs 9 – the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
vs 10 – the deep things of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel). The gospel is considered milk upon which the new believer (indeed, all believers) is to desire so that he/she may grow thereby... the mystery, the hidden wisdom is (scripturally) considered to be strong meat.
vs 11 – the things of God which no man knoweth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
vs 12 – the things that are freely given to us of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
vs 13 – things which the Holy Ghost teacheth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
vs 14 – the things of the Spirit of God and specifically the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
The verse in Jeremiah refers to the people who had turned away from God.awelight said:
Jeremiah 5:11-12 For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the LORD. They have belied the LORD, and said, it is not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine
The verse in Proverbs tells us that God has gifted us with ears and eyes. The purpose of ears and eyes is for mankind to hear and seek God.
We are told to hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: for they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
We are told further if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause ... cast in thy lot among us ... My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path (Prov 1:8-15).
Are you suggesting that God is to blame when a person mis-utilizes that which God gifted to him or her ... ears that they should hear / eyes that they should see???
.
There is a problem in the following verse you quoted.
Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, G4267 he also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
There are three possible groups of people that could be the subject in this verse.
1) For whom (the Jews) he did formerly know
2) For whom (the Gentiles) he did formerly know
3) For whom (Jew and Gentile) he did formerly know
If the subject of this verse (Romans 8:29) is the Jews, which the context of Romans chapters 2 to chapters 12 would dictate. Then the Jews are likewise predestined to be conformed to that same image, Jesus Christ.
We need to know the racial identity of 'For whom'. Because the interpretation of Romans 8:29 will alter depending on whom Paul is referring too.
Carp are various species of oily, freshwater fish from the family Cyprinidae, a very large group of fish native to Europe and Asia ...
Polycarp are a type of apparel sold by the American Carp Society ...
Here's how I'm seeing it (briefly):
--the "FOR" (regarding the "whom" in v.29) points back to the "those according to His purpose [G4286] being [present participle] called [G2822]"...
... and same book in Romans 1:6,7 says "6 called [G2822] of Jesus Christ" and "7 called [G2822] saints".
...and in 1Cor1:24 says, "to them the called [G2822] both Jews and Greeks"...
... and see also 1Cor1:2 and Jude 1:1 and how they use this same word - https://biblehub.com/greek/2822.htm
So then the question becomes, to what does the word (in Rom8:28) refer, where it says "[those according to His] PURPOSE - G4286 [being called - G2822]"...
... and we see some of this in the following passage:
8To me [Paul], the very least of all saints, was given this grace: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ 9and to enlighten all what is the administration of the mystery having been hidden from the ages in God, the One having created all things, 10so that now through the church the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11according to the purpose - G4286 of the ages, which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have [...]
The problem is that Paul in chapter two is directly addressing the Jews.
The context of Romans 2 to Romans 12, would indicate that Paul is explaining the plight of the Jews.
Romans 2:17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God...
Paul is certainly not addressing the Gentiles here.
I do believe that Paul is notifying the Gentiles, that the Jews though severed from Christ. They also have been predestined to be conformed to a Christ like state.
Good grief man how in the world did you ever deduce that falsehood?
KJV Search Results for "gentiles" (blueletterbible.org)
Rom 1:13
Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Rom 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Well, I've not said that.
Nor was that the ultimate point of my post (in case you thought so). = )
Regarding Romans 2 (where some try to suggest that 'Gentiles BECOME Jews [upon trusting in Christ for salvation]', according to how they [incorrectly] perceive verses 28a,29)... here's what I've put in an old thread/post:
[quoting from old post]
One must track with Paul's outline [in ROMANS], here:
[--Romans 1:1-7 - Salutation]
--where he has been covering "Gentiles" from 1:8-1:32 (except for vv.19-21 where he covers each[/both]);
--a transition section from 2:1-2:16;
--then covering the "Jews" from 2:17-3:20 (where we find our verse under discussion, 2:28-29);
--then finally from 3:21 forward covers the fact that "ALL [Jews and Gentiles alike] have sinned and come short..."
[end quoting from old post]
____________
So, what I was pointing out about the "whom" (of Rom8) is those "being called"...
... and Romans 1:6,7 say... "Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ" [and] "called to be saints"
^ to further clarify that ^ post...
.... and in this part that I'd also put in my post ^ especially what I've [now] put in BLUE here, this is speaking specifically of "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]" ; Eph1:20-23 "WHEN [as to its existence]") which is NOT just the "Gentiles" but "Jews AND Gentiles" (who are considered neither in our standing before God "IN Christ")
.... and in this part that I'd also put in my post ^ especially what I've [now] put in BLUE here, this is speaking specifically of "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]" ; Eph1:20-23 "WHEN [as to its existence]") which is NOT just the "Gentiles" but "Jews AND Gentiles" (who are considered neither in our standing before God "IN Christ")
How about paying more closer attention to the text itself.
Here have a read of the verses below and then ask yourself the question. What has Paul been talking about in the last ten chapters of the letter to the Romans?
Romans 11:1
I say then, God has not rejected His people (the Jews), has He?
Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened.
Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 11:28-29
In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
I understand exactly how you interpret the text.
What is the context of Romans chapters 9,10,11?
Why would Paul deviate from his line of argument in chapter 8 of Romans?
Thanks for the questions.
I'll need to be very brief here (tight schedule ATM)... but basically:
--Romans 1 thru 5:11 [Subject] is "sinS"
... and when he's finished covering THAT, then he transitions to...
--Romans 5:12 - chpt-8-end [Subject] is "Sin"
... and when he's finished covering THAT, then he transitions to...
--Romans 9-11 [Subject]... which is basically addressing the understood question, "what of the promises made to Israel??" [where are they?? what happened to them?? (basically covering "Israel [singular nation]" and "Gentiles [plural nations]"... chpt 11 being esp re Israel's "future")--And summing up that section (chpts 9-11) by saying, "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that He might have mercy UPON ALL" (Jew AND Gentile) - Rom11:32;
...and when he's finished covering THAT, then he transitions to...
--Romans 12 thru the end of Romans [Subject]... which is basically the "practical" application (in view of "the mercies of God" having been spoken of in the previous parts of the epistle, leading up to chpt 12)
Hope that helps you see my perspective. Happy to try to answer any further questions (but may have to wait till tomorrow, or more likely Monday evening). = )
I found a lot of two-headed fish... poly poly carps!Carp are various species of oily, freshwater fish from the family
Cyprinidae, a very large group of fish native to Europe and Asia ...
Polycarp are a type of apparel sold by the American Carp Society ...
