Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[Magenta]

John 12:31-32

 

[rogerg]

do you recall that we have already gone through the fact that it is the Lord Who removes the veil?

No, the person DOES NOT CAUSE THE TURNINTG. God causes the turning AND removes the veil. Either you didn't understand or haven't been reading the replies.

Here is what I submitted in Post 526

reneweddaybyday said:16 Nevertheless when it [the heart of the reader] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.2 Cor 3:15-16 – the veil remains upon the heart of some when they read Scripture. However, when the reader turns his or her heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, the veil is removed. [note: the verb is active which means the reader turns his/her heart]

That is not what the verse says - you're fudging "the heart of the reader" isn't within the verse - you've altered it. Shame on you!
I posted numerous translations that do not include your addition. It is God alone who turns His chosen to Jesus. Man of himself
will not/can not do that. Read this verse. I haven't altered it:

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

I'll be happy to just go through the versions you have submitted and highlight in red the "you" in the verse. In fact, just replace the word in red with "rogerg":

It is God who causes one to turn. 2 Co 3:16 makes an objective statement that when one turns the veil is removed,
but it does not address the why or how. The problem you have is that you've never been able to follow the biblical rule that
the spiritual must be compared to the spiritual in order to find biblical wisdom/truth. Unless and until you do that, you will
come to many incorrect interpretations.
Phl 2:13 below it explains it.

[2Co 3:16 NKJV] 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Instead of arguing, why don't you just try turning your heart to the Lord ... He will always be there waiting for you with arms wide open to receive you and hold you close.

I argue because I'm afraid that someone might actually believe the trash you forth, so it is my duty, whether they accept it or not, to provide correction/contrast to you. You would have one's works be the core of salvation instead of by God and His grace alone.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, I realize that you understand it differently than I do. I believe the lost sheep to be the elect who have not yet become born-again and therefore do not yet know Christ as Saviour, rather than it of being those who were born-again and yet have fallen-away. I do not believe it possible for that to happen, because we are told that it is God who made Himself guarantor that it wouldn't. To me, it comes down to this: whether Jew or Gentile does not matter at all. All that matters, and the point of departure for salvation, is whether or not someone's name had been written into the book of life from before the foundation of the world: those names who were, must become saved, and they cannot, not, become saved - intervention or lack of it by man in that regard cannot subvert that end from occurring. All categories or sub- divisions of natural man are irrelevant and insignificant to that. Therefore, have all true believers been instructed by God to share the gospel to all non-believers, irrespective of either's lineage or heritage.

[Jhn 10:16 KJV] 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Phl 1:6 KJV]
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Thanks for taking the time to explain your understanding.

What do you think your relationship with God is when you are walking according to the flesh, in which we all do at times?

 

[rogerg]

Since none of the believers who have posted in this thread "attribute their salvation to what they have done or what they will do, instead of God", perhaps you were speaking of folks from other sites who do as you claim in your Post 749???

Your interpretation of 2 Col 3:16 is exactly that, as you make turning the requirement of the person to do, instead of God.
Do you not even realize the implications of what you're posting?

Do you know that Scripture tells us whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23) and that if we knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17)???

It is Christ's faith. The "good" is to trust in Christ alone as Saviour, not in ourselves, otherwise, we sin.

you added the words "because of ourselves or because of anything that we have done or might do". Just read the verse as written ... God excluded the words you want to include and, as the Author of Scripture, if He had wanted to include them, He would have.

Yeah, well, you were supposed to compare the spiritual with the spiritual, which you don't do, and which is your core problem. I did include several verses that confirm what I said. Here is one again.

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

God's desire for us is that we not sin, but because He knoweth our frame, He remembereth we are dust, in His grace and lovingkindness, He makes provision for us if and when we do sin.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

If, as according to you "the Bible tells us that we do not sin", there would be no need for God to include 1 John 1:9 in Scripture (or 1 John 2:1 ... or many other verses He included).

Those are the Bible's words. If someone has been born-again, in terms of salvation, they do not sin.
To sin is to not have true faith in alone Christ as Saviour which is remedied if/when saved by God - when He places
His Chosen under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus - His work, not ours.
Christ is the advocate for all of the elect with the Father. Until becoming saved/born-again, they remain under
the law of sin and death yet He is still their advocate because they will eventually become saved.

Notice the condition if we walk in the light

Not all of the elect are saved at the same time, nevertheless, eventually, they will become saved. The "if" pertains to those of the elect
who have not yet been but will be.

Is this your proof text that you do not sin, rogerg? ... that you have never, ever sinned since the moment you were born again ???

In terms of salvation, yes, those born-again do not sin because to sin is not to be covered under/by Christ. and that pertains to all the saved/born again. And, it is not of themselves, it is the work of God. So, you either don't understand or recognize that verse as being God's, and have chosen to override His authority with your own.

Are you claiming that you never, ever walk after the flesh, rogerg? ... that you have walked and continue to walk after the Spirit 24/7/365 from the moment you were born again to this day???

To walk after the flesh, is to trust in the works of the flesh (our own works), for salvation. And no, after becoming born
again, neither I, nor anyone who has been born-again, so trust.

not true, rogerg. the born again one may stumble in this life and he or she may sin. Until we see the Lord Jesus Christ face-to-face and we are like Him, we can be drawn away through the lusts of our flesh ... just as explained in James 1.

To sin is to not be under Christ but under works. Those saved/born again will not/cannot be moved from Christ because it is God who has made Himself the guarantor of such. It is not by man.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

God is absolutely faithful and He does work within each born again one. However, is the born again one always faithful to follow Him at all times (24/7/365) since he or she was born again?

To ask that question means that either you didn't read or don't understand that verse (or both I guess). As I said above, God has made Himself the guarantor. It is NOT up to man.

Again, rogerg, I am not speaking of salvation. I am speaking of the fellowship the child of God has with the Father ... the moment by moment, day by day close relationship which can and does become strained when the child of God stumbles and sins.

If you are saying that you are not speaking about salvation, then that must mean you agree with me. So, if you are not speaking
of salvation, then we have nothing left to discuss, because everything else is a byproduct of, and results from, being saved/born again.
Does that mean those saved live perfect lives? No. But neither does it affect their salvation. If someone is not saved, then the rest pales into insignificance.

Myself? I am not perfect (yet) and I have sinned since becoming born again. The moment I realize I have strayed and turn back to the Lord Jesus Christ, He is there welcoming me back into the fold. He is so, so good.
.

Maybe in terms of salvation you don't understand what sinning is. If sinning is of man's actions, and to sin
denies someone salvation, then our salvation is dependent upon us and not Christ. Can you possibly believe that is correct?

 

[rogerg]

Thanks for taking the time to explain your understanding.

What do you think your relationship with God is when you are walking according to the flesh, in which we all do at times?

No problem, I enjoy our discussions. Anyway, I believe that to walk in the flesh means to trust in the flesh (the works of man) for salvation. I do not believe it pertains to things we may do that are immoral or improper. God does not like any
Christian to behave in ways not God glorifying, but neither will that affect one's salvation. However, for the true Christian,
God most definitely provides correction to them in ways that are most unpleasant, and He keeps increasing the unpleasantness until
we stop. Having undergone that process several times, I can attest that God knows precisely what we don't like - even better
than we do - and goes right to it like a heat seeking missile and His correction can last for quite a long time. It is much, much better
to avoid it in the first place. We can know when we are about to undertake something God doesn't like because a voice in our
inner mind screams "STOP" before we do it. Should we ignore that warning, we will experience a very interesting period of time.
But again, that does not affect salvation because salvation is by Christ, not us. As an example, look at king David.

 

[rogerg]

nope ... to be "drawn away" is to be lured through the lusts of the flesh:

James 1:

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The words "drawn away" are translated from the Greek word exelkó which means to be lured away.

The word "enticed" is translated from the Greek word deleazó which means to bait a hook or set a trap with bait; luring them in through their own selfish impulses.

Yeah, but that is in being tempted/drawn away to trust in works for salvation and not in Christ. It is not the foibles and mistakes of man in everyday life. Not that they are good to do, but neither do they affect one's salvation. We are saved by what Christ had accomplished on our behalf; it is not ourselves. See my reply to ForestGreenCook above (#786).

I have explained to you the difference between salvation and fellowship.

Salvation alone is what is significant. God will lead us to, and will correct us, should we stray away from that which He desires from us.
That is not to say it is okay to do what is not pleasing to Him - in fact, very much to the contrary of that - but neither does it affect one's salvation.

 

[rogerg]

John 12:31-32

The "all" are all the Father gave to Christ for salvation. It cannot include anyone who is not of those.

[Jhn 6:37-39 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[rogerg]

Apparently the Galatian believers did not get the memo that "they wont stray away from it, they cant no longer be deceived"

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

[Gal 5:10 KJV] 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No problem, I enjoy our discussions. Anyway, I believe that to walk in the flesh means to trust in the flesh (the works of man) for salvation. I do not believe it pertains to things we may do that are immoral or improper. God does not like any
Christian to behave in ways not God glorifying, but neither will that affect one's salvation. However, for the true Christian,
God most definitely provides correction to them in ways that are most unpleasant, and He keeps increasing the unpleasantness until
we stop. Having undergone that process several times, I can attest that God knows precisely what we don't like - even better
than we do - and goes right to it like a heat seeking missile and His correction can last for quite a long time. It is much, much better
to avoid it in the first place. We can know when we are about to undertake something God doesn't like because a voice in our
inner mind screams "STOP" before we do it. Should we ignore that warning, we will experience a very interesting period of time.
But again, that does not affect salvation because salvation is by Christ, not us. As an example, look at king David.

Forgive me, if I have ask you this before. What is your explanation of Rom 10:1-3?

Are the ones that Paul is praying for born again?

Seems I have more questions, than answers. The Jews, in Acts 2:37, have they already been born again with the heart changed from a stony one, to a fleshy one?

 

[rogerg]

Forgive me, if I have ask you this before. What is your explanation of Rom 10:1-3?

Are the ones that Paul is praying for born again?

Seems I have more questions, than answers. The Jews, in Acts 2:37, have they already been born again with the heart changed from a stony one, to a fleshy one?

No problem. I think we may have discussed this before, but My understanding of Rom 10:1 - 3 is that they are of the elect but have not yet born-again. For Acts 2:37, I believe they had just become born-again and that is why they were "pricked in their heart". We can know they had become born-again because we are told that "they that gladly received the word", which will only happen
to those born again. It additionally tells us that there were others there who did not gladly receive the word, demonstrating
they did not yet become born-again, and possibly, never would because they were not of the elect.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Philippians 2:13 does not change the fact that the verb in 2 Cor 3:16 is active, not passive as you continue to insist.

Instead of arguing, why don't you just try turning your heart to the Lord ... He will always be there waiting for you with arms wide open to receive you and hold you close.

I argue because I'm afraid that someone might actually believe the trash you forth, so it is my duty, whether they accept it or not, to provide correction/contrast to you.

Explaining to you that you are manipulating Scripture by changing an active verb to passive is not "trash".

What is "trash" is your manipulation of Scripture in changing the active verb to the passive.

"your duty" is to read Scripture as is without changing the active verb to the passive.

When you change Scripture, you no longer have Scripture.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Since none of the believers who have posted in this thread "attribute their salvation to what they have done or what they will do, instead of God", perhaps you were speaking of folks from other sites who do as you claim in your Post 749???

Your interpretation of 2 Col 3:16 is exactly that, as you make turning the requirement of the person to do, instead of God.
Do you not even realize the implications of what you're posting?

Do you think I'm just making up the fact that the verb is active? Look it up for yourself. The words shall turn are a verb in the active voice.

You and brightfame52 want to change the active into the passive for whatever reason. But your desire to change the active to the passive does not change it.

Do you know that Scripture tells us whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:23) and that if we knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin(James 4:17)???

The "good" is to trust in Christ alone as Saviour, not in ourselves, otherwise, we sin.

oh really ... aren't you the one who keeps insisting that the born again one cannot sin???

... read the verse again

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

you added the words "because of ourselves or because of anything that we have done or might do". Just read the verse as written ... God excluded the words you want to include and, as the Author of Scripture, if He had wanted to include them, He would have.

Yeah, well, you were supposed to compare the spiritual with the spiritual, which you don't do, and which is your core problem.

... now you're inferring that your added words are "spiritual" and your added words should be compared to the true spiritual matters contained in Scripture??? What a farce!!!

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

God's desire for us is that we not sin, but because He knoweth our frame, He remembereth we are dust, in His grace and lovingkindness, He makes provision for us if and when we do sin.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

If, as according to you "the Bible tells us that we do not sin", there would be no need for God to include 1 John 1:9 in Scripture (or 1 John 2:1 ... or many other verses He included).

Those are the Bible's words.

that's right ... so why do you not believe them???

[1Jo 1:7 KJV] 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ hi Son cleanseth us from all sin

Notice the condition if we walk in the light

The "if" pertains to those of the elect

who have not yet been but will be.

... nope. The "if" pertains to the born again believers who walk in fellowship with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ (1 John 1:3).

Those who walk in fellowship with the Father and the Son will be walking in the light and they will have fellowship one with another (1 John 1:7).

Is this your proof text that you do not sin, rogerg? ... that you have never, ever sinned since the moment you were born again ???

In terms of salvation, yes

Again you conflate salvation with fellowship and in so doing, you reveal you do not understand either.

Are you claiming that you never, ever walk after the flesh, rogerg? ... that you have walked and continue to walk after the Spirit 24/7/365 from the moment you were born again to this day???

To walk after the flesh, is to trust in the works of the flesh (our own works), for salvation.

nope ... to walk after the flesh is to live in light of who you were in Adam before becoming born again. Scripture refers to this as "the old man" and we are instructed to "put off the old man":

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts

And Scripture makes clear this is something the believer is to do ... you put off. Does God help us "put off" ... yes He does. But you are the one who is instructed to "put off ... the old man". When those deceitful lusts start working on us to tempt us to be drawn away from God, don't turn from Him ... just stay the course. Resist the devil and he will flee – James 4:7 ... no telling how long we have to resist, but God's promise holds true, eventually the devil will go off to bother someone else if he can't get us to budge.

not true, rogerg. the born again one may stumble in this life and he or she may sin. Until we see the Lord Jesus Christ face-to-face and we are like Him, we can be drawn away through the lusts of our flesh ... just as explained in James 1.

To sin is to not be under Christ but under works. Those saved/born again will not/cannot be moved from Christ because it is God who has made Himself the guarantor of such.

Again you conflate salvation with fellowship and in so doing, you reveal you do not understand either.

Again, rogerg, I am not speaking of salvation. I am speaking of the fellowship the child of God has with the Father ... the moment by moment, day by day close relationship which can and does become strained when the child of God stumbles and sins.

If you are saying that you are not speaking about salvation, then that must mean you agree with me.

... nope, I agree with Scripture and to the extent you and I both agree with Scripture, then you and I are in agreement.

I do not know if you and I are in agreement concerning fellowship because you continuously conflate salvation with the day to day/ongoing fellowship with the Father.

Myself? I am not perfect (yet) and I have sinned since becoming born again. The moment I realize I have strayed and turn back to the Lord Jesus Christ, He is there welcoming me back into the fold. He is so, so good.

Maybe in terms of salvation you don't understand what sinning is. If sinning is of man's actions, and to sin
denies someone salvation, then our salvation is dependent upon us and not Christ. Can you possibly believe that is correct?

another example wherein you conflate salvation with fellowship.

Here is what I told you in Post 535

I believe that when a person is born again, he or she is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). The seal is evidence of ownership. The born again one belongs to God and no one can remove the born again one from God.​

​

The born again one can, however, be robbed of fellowship with the Father and with the Lord Jesus Christ if / when he or she is drawn away by his or her own lusts ... which can lead to undesirable consequences for the believer.​

Here is what I told you in Post 760

Again, rogerg, I'm not referring to salvation. There is no issue concerning salvation because you and I both agree that when a person is born again, he or she is a child of God ... belongs to God. God places His seal upon the born again one ... sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchase possession – Eph 1:13-14.​

​

I am speaking of the moment by moment, day by day walk in this life ... the things we do which are not in alignment with who we are in the Lord Jesus Christ and which distract us from following Him. This does not affect our standing as a child of God. This does affect our fellowship with God ... our close walk with Him.​

.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No problem. I think we may have discussed this before, but My understanding of Rom 10:1 - 3 is that they are of the elect but have not yet born-again. For Acts 2:37, I believe they had just become born-again and that is why they were "pricked in their heart". We can know they had become born-again because we are told that "they that gladly received the word", which will only happen
to those born again. It additionally tells us that there were others there who did not gladly receive the word, demonstrating
they did not yet become born-again, and possibly, never would because they were not of the elect.

I remember our discussion now. I agree with the Acts account, but the Rom 10 is where we differ, anyway, all of the elect are saved.


Do you believe the salvation scriptures teach that there in an eternal deliverance, and there is, also, many timely deliverances for the elect as they sojourn here on earth?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

nope ... to be "drawn away" is to be lured through the lusts of the flesh:

James 1:

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The words "drawn away" are translated from the Greek word exelkó which means to be lured away.

The word "enticed" is translated from the Greek word deleazó which means to bait a hook or set a trap with bait; luring them in through their own selfish impulses.

Yeah, but that is in being tempted/drawn away to trust in works for salvation and not in Christ.

wrong ... read the verses again, rogerg. It is clear that the believer is being tempted/drawn away to sin:

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin ...

It is not the foibles and mistakes of man in everyday life.

Yes, rogerg, James 1:14-15 is speaking of the sin that is committed.

And James 1:12 tells us Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

The only way we can endure temptation is in not allowing ourselves to be drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ. It is only in the Lord Jesus Christ that we have the capacity to endure the trial.

When we get distracted by the lusts of our flesh, we take our focus off of the Lord (we are drawn away from Him). We have no strength in and of ourselves to endure ... that is why it is imperative that we keep our focus on the Lord Jesus Christ. He walks with us and shares our burden so that we can endure.

I have explained to you the difference between salvation and fellowship.

Salvation alone is what is significant.

... wow ... so fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ is not "significant"??? sorry ... not in agreement with you there, rogerg.

That is not to say it is okay to do what is not pleasing to Him - in fact, very much to the contrary of that - but neither does it affect one's salvation.

That some folks have such a blasé attitude if/when a born again one sins because, "hey, they're still born again so what's the big deal ... it doesn't affect one's salvation".

There is loss that is suffered by the born again one who stumbles.

It brings sorrow to the heart of the Father when He sees one of His children sin.

And what about the Lord Jesus Christ? He's the One Who was crucified on our behalf. He's the One Who endured the cross, despising the shame.


Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

“He is grieved with us mainly for our own sakes, for he knows what misery sin will cost us; he reads our sorrows in our sins… He grieves over us because he sees how much chastisement we incur, and how much communion we lose.” (Spurgeon)

The "communion we lose" refers to fellowship with the Father ... Spurgeon understood the difference between salvation and fellowship.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Once a Sheep has been converted to the Truth, they wont stray away from it, they cant no longer be deceived.

Apparently the Galatian believers did not get the memo that "they wont stray away from it, they cant no longer be deceived"


Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

[Gal 5:10 KJV] 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

Galatians 5:10 does not support your claim that a born again believer "wont stray away from [the Truth], they cant no longer be deceived".

Read Galatians 5:7 ... just a few verses before your proof text:

Galatians 5:7-10 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.


The Galatian believers were hindered by someone who had come into the church and taught something other than the truth.

The NIV translates Gal 5:7 as follows: You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?

It is clear from Scripture that a born again believer can stray from the Truth and they can be deceived. If and when this occurs, this affects their day to day walk with God ... their communion with Him, their fellowship with the Father ... notwithstanding the insistence by you and brightfame52 to the contrary.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[rogerg]

I remember our discussion now. I agree with the Acts account, but the Rom 10 is where we differ, anyway, all of the elect are saved.


Do you believe the salvation scriptures teach that there in an eternal deliverance, and there is, also, many timely deliverances for the elect as they sojourn here on earth?

Sorry, ForestGreemnCook, I'm not sure that I understand your latter point. Would you mind posting an example of what you have in mind. Thanks.

 

[rogerg]

It is clear from Scripture that a born again believer can stray from the Truth and they can be deceived. If and when this occurs, this affects their day to day walk with God ... their communion with Him, their fellowship with the Father ... notwithstanding the insistence by you and brightfame52 to the contrary.

This is the only reply I'm going to male to your recent posts because I've already refuted them before. Christ IS the Truth. Despite your insistence to the contrary, no one who is elect/saved/born again can stray from Christ as their Saviour because it is God Himself who guarantees that will not happen.
Everything else flows from, and a byproduct of that salvation.

 

[rogerg]

Read Galatians 5:7 ... just a few verses before your proof text:

Galatians 5:7-10 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.


The Galatian believers were hindered by someone who had come into the church and taught something other than the truth.

Okay, you did post a new point so I will reply to that one too.
Sure, there have been/will be false prophets who attempt to bring false doctrine into or to hinder the true church, but as true believers, they will never follow it. But that they were being hindered (or their forward progress slowed or stopped), was not the point, Instead, the point was whether they remained faithful to Christ, by Christ.

You didn't read far enough which is a common problem for you. Paul was not speaking of their falling away from belief in Christ as Saviour, instead, he was speaking of their desire to observe holy days instead of the liberty that is in Christ Jesus. Paul corrected them, especially because they were new in the faith and were still learning about Christ, of their salvation, and of Christian doctrine. No Christian wakes up one morning knowing everything there is to know about the tenets of salvation nor of Christ. Paul accompanied his teaching with admonitions that they should cease and desist from the seeking or the doing of them- by which they learned and gained wisdom. However, even in the depths of their ignorance of doctrine, they never perceived it as being something they needed to perform to become or remain saved, nor of their needing to return back to faith- they steadfastly remained in belief that salvation is/was/by Christ alone and was not by them.

this was Paul's criticism:

[Gal 4:10 KJV] 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

How do we know they would cease from that? Because Paul said they would, but only "through the Lord"; that is, because God was within them moving them to recognize the truth and moving them to follow it - it was by God, otherwise, for the unsaved, they would not. This is confirmed, and confirms, 1 Pet 1:5.

[Gal 5:10 KJV] 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Paul's criticism of them, in essence was the same one he levied against Peter and Barnabas. Would you say that Peter and Barnabas had fallen from faith in Christ as Saviour? No, absolutely not!

A failure to observe or know doctrine, is not synonymous to a failure or an abandonment of faith.

[Gal 2:12-13 KJV]
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

 

[brightfame52]

Galatians 5:10 does not support your claim that a born again believer "wont stray away from [the Truth], they cant no longer be deceived".

Read Galatians 5:7 ... just a few verses before your proof text:

Galatians 5:7-10 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.


The Galatian believers were hindered by someone who had come into the church and taught something other than the truth.

The NIV translates Gal 5:7 as follows: You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?

It is clear from Scripture that a born again believer can stray from the Truth and they can be deceived. If and when this occurs, this affects their day to day walk with God ... their communion with Him, their fellowship with the Father ... notwithstanding the insistence by you and brightfame52 to the contrary.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

No, a believer cannot be deceived, here is the memo from Christ Matt 24:24


For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

If they come under the influence of false teaching, they still wont be finally deceived. They have an unction from God 1 Jn 2 that makes it impossible to be finally deceived and fall from the Faith

1 Jn 2:20-21,26-28

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Notice John said that ye shall abide in Him ! Thats a guarantee they shall abide in the true doctrine because of the indwelling Spirit who is with them forever

In the original Ye shall abide is a future active indicative. They are abiding in Christ now and shall be in the future. The indactive means:

Is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

can a True believer fall prey to the influences of false teaching, of course, can they they be finally deceived and lost, NO !