Cain's Offering

[Guojing]

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The incident with Cain and his brother isn't about the so-called plan of
salvation. It's about fellowship; which is a different issue altogether.

See Isa 1:2-15, Prov 15:8, and 1John 1:5-6.
_

So you were not thinking total depravity there?

 

[Guojing]

Not sure this is based on scripture? It sounds like a mixture of scriptures without correct interpretation. Let me ask you what this scripture means to you, using your ideology.

Hebrews 12:14-17 Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord. Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many. Make sure that no one is immoral or godless like Esau, who traded his birthright as the firstborn son for a single meal. You know that afterward, when he wanted his father’s blessing, he was rejected. It was too late for repentance, even though he begged with bitter tears.

The doctrine for Hebrews, as James, is meant for the Tribulation period, although we can learn lessons from it now.

 

[Guojing]

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The incident with Cain and his brother isn't about the so-called plan of
salvation. It's about fellowship; which is a different issue altogether.

See Isa 1:2-15, Prov 15:8, and 1John 1:5-6.
_

When you made the claim that

God has never been pleased with the offerings of unrighteous people even
when their offerings are 100% correct, timely, and God-given.

You are trying to say you believe that had Cain repented after Genesis 4:7 and offer a blood sacrifice like Abel, God would still have rejected him?

 

[TLC209]

The doctrine for Hebrews, as James, is meant for the Tribulation period, although we can learn lessons from it now.

Is it? You quoted from Hebrews. Seems like a weird way to avoid answering the question. How about you show where in scripture suggests James and Hebrews is for tribulation period. But nice try Guojing lol you always avoid questions that contradict your ideology.

 

[Webers.Home]

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So you were not thinking total depravity there?

Total depravity doesn't come into the picture till Gen 4:7, which says:

"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what
is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must
master it."

The Hebrew word for sin at this point is somewhat vague. It can refer to not
only a single offense; but also to offenses committed by repeat offenders. In
other words; not just an occasional slip-up, but a life style.

Whatever it was that God found displeasing in Cain's life at the time of the
offerings debacle was moved to the back burner at this point because
something far worse is looming on Cain's horizon; and it wasn't his kid
brother's murder.

It's a perpetual unwillingness to talk things over with God and get some
things straightened out between the two of you. This is not just serious-- it's
extremely serious and apparently quite common among people with Cain-ish
attitudes; for example:

"But they refused to pay attention, and turned a stubborn shoulder and
stopped their ears from hearing. And they made their hearts like flint so that
they could not hear the law and the words which the Lord of legions had
sent by His spirit through the former prophets" (Zech 7:11-12)

That stubborn-shoulder attitude was the sin crouching at Cain's door like a
predatory beast ready to pounce and overpower him should he fail to listen
to what God was telling him. In other words: Cain's unwillingness to
straighten up and fly right would become permanent; which of course it did
because anon Cain walked out on God.

"Cain went out from The Lord's presence" (Gen 4:16)
_

 

[Webers.Home]

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You are trying to say you believe that had Cain repented after Genesis 4:7
and offer a blood sacrifice like Abel, God would still have rejected
him?

I have yet to be shown irrefutable evidence that Abel's offering was slain. Please
see post No.50 for my take on this incident in the Old Testament.
_

 

[Guojing]

Is it? You quoted from Hebrews. Seems like a weird way to avoid answering the question. How about you show where in scripture suggests James and Hebrews is for tribulation period. But nice try Guojing lol you always avoid questions that contradict your ideology.

I did not avoid your questions, I answered your questions on what I believe in.

But I cannot make you accept my answer.

Btw, I never used Hebrews earlier, it was posthuman.

 

[Guojing]

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I have yet to be shown irrefutable evidence that Abel's offering was slain. Please
see post No.50 for my take on this incident in the Old Testament.
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So would you state clearly that you don't share the view of Calvinism?

 

[posthuman]

There was no command to bring an offering of the ground, there was a precedence set by God killing the animal, shedding blood and covering Adam and Eve's shame, sin and nakedness and the PROMISE of a redeemer in Genesis 3:15......from front to back the bible points at Jesus as the sacrifice for sin.....

so Cain was in a sense dependent on Abel, because Abel was the one who tended sheep

 

[posthuman]

There are many verses from Paul's epistles you can use to show:

1. "BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);
2. "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5);
3. "Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);
4. "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);
5. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);
6. "Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9) -

Btw, I never used Hebrews earlier, it was posthuman.

{Hebrews 4:10} ≅ {Romans 9:31-32}mod(♰)

 

[posthuman]

I have yet to be shown irrefutable evidence that Abel's offering was slain.

And Abel also himself brought of the firstfruits of his sheep, and of the fat of them
(Genesis 4:4)
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how do you get the fat out of an animal without killing it?
how do you devote something in an offering to the LORD?
how did Yah take the pelt of an animal - suppose for example a lamb - and make a tunic from it?
how was this he state of this suppositional lamb no longer having skin?

flesh removed; what does that do to a creature?

 

[posthuman]

When you made the claim that

God has never been pleased with the offerings of unrighteous people even
when their offerings are 100% correct, timely, and God-given.

You are trying to say you believe that had Cain repented after Genesis 4:7 and offer a blood sacrifice like Abel, God would still have rejected him?

i believe if Cain repented and did what was right God would have regard for his gift.
((just for the record))

 

[posthuman]

.



The incident with Cain and his brother isn't about the so-called plan of
salvation. It's about fellowship; which is a different issue altogether.

See Isa 1:2-15, Prov 15:8, and 1John 1:5-6.
_

everything in the Bible is about Christ, His person & His work. He is Salvation. His work is salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

so Cain was in a sense dependent on Abel, because Abel was the one who tended sheep

Under the law later given were people permitted to purchase an animal for price and offer it? Could Cain have traded, purchased or raised one himself?

What was it that CAIN lacked faith in?

He knew God, was offering to God, talked with God.....so what was shown by his offering? A lack of faith INTO what exactly?

And I will remind you he was 1st on the list in Jude that false teachers are compared to...WHY? And what what he portraying that was FALSE?

 

[posthuman]

Under the law later given were people permitted to purchase an animal for price and offer it? Could Cain have traded, purchased or raised one himself?

What was it that CAIN lacked faith in?

He knew God, was offering to God, talked with God.....so what was shown by his offering? A lack of faith INTO what exactly?

And I will remind you he was 1st on the list in Jude that false teachers are compared to...WHY? And what what he portraying that was FALSE?

if they are commemorating the lamb(s?) slain to make covering for their parents, and Abel by repeating what God had done shows faith, and Cain by his particular botanical offering is demonstrating the opposite, what is the antithesis in Genesis 3 of the coverings of skin?



figs. how many things did Christ curse while He tabernacled among us?
what/who ever died in His presence?

 

[posthuman]

so Cain was in a sense dependent on Abel, because Abel was the one who tended sheep

are we dependent on someone to provide a Lamb?

was Abraham.

 

[posthuman]

if they are commemorating the lamb(s?) slain to make covering for their parents, and Abel by repeating what God had done shows faith, and Cain by his particular botanical offering is demonstrating the opposite, what is the antithesis in Genesis 3 of the coverings of skin?



figs. how many things did Christ curse while He tabernacled among us?
what/who ever died in His presence?

what did Cain and Abel wear?
Adam and Eve had garments God made for them. what did they do when they had children, born naked? leave them naked?
if they clothed them, how?

Cain & Abel grew - did they need new clothes? how often? did their tunics wear out? become too small?
did Adam & Eve's tunics wear out?

when Cain & Abel needed new tunics, was it a special occasion? we've only got two examples of clothes in Genesis 1-4. both of those are fairly significant actions/events, right?

hmm

♥​

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[Elihoenai]

Matthew 8:2-4 King James Version (KJV)

2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.



Does Elohim/God require from Jews and Christians Sin Offering for Atonement? If yes, how is this possible without Third Temple on Temple Mount? Yeshua/Jesus teaches that the Levitical Priesthood must be performed.



Temple Mount

The Temple Mount (Hebrew: הַר הַבַּיִת, Har HaBáyit, "Mount of the House [of God, i.e. the Temple in Jerusalem]"), known to Muslims as the Haram esh-Sharif (Arabic: الحرم الشريف‎, al-Ḥaram al-Šarīf, "the Noble Sanctuary", or الحرم القدسي الشريف, al-Ḥaram al-Qudsī al-Šarīf, "the Noble Sanctuary of Jerusalem") and the Al Aqsa Compound,[2] is a hill located in the Old City of Jerusalem that for thousands of years has been venerated as a holy site, in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam alike.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

 

[Webers.Home]

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so Cain was in a sense dependent on Abel, because Abel was the one who
tended sheep

In those days, everybody was a vegetarian because it wasn't till after the
Flood that God gave humanity permission to eat meat; which of course
implies that Abel and his mom and dad were all dependent upon Cain for
their food seeing as how he was the one doing the farming.
_

 

[Webers.Home]

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And Abel also himself brought of the firstfruits of his sheep, and of the fat of
them (Genesis 4:4)

The pronoun "them" is plural; which strongly suggests the involvement of
more than one animal.

how do you get the fat out of an animal without killing it?

Unfortunately, the Hebrew word for "fat" is ambiguous. It can mean fleshy
material, but it can also refer to prosperity, abundance, and/or the best of
the best; for example:

"Take your father and your households and come to me, and I will give you
the best of the land of Egypt and you shall eat the fat of the land.
Gen 45:18

This all tells me that Abel not only offered an animal from among his blue
ribbon stock, but he picked out the choicest one of them all.

NOTE: The Hebrew word for "sheep" is nowhere in the text of Gen 4:2-4. It's
the word for flock; which can be sheep or goats, i.e. lambs or kids, either
one.

In point of fact, the Hebrew word for Abraham's "lamb" in the 22nd chapter
of Genesis is ambiguous too. It too can mean either sheep or goats. Sometimes
translators have to make arbitrary decisions which, at times, can be
misleading.
_