Body Of CHRIST "Does NOT" Go To Heaven?

[presidente]

No assumptions

We know the dead in Christ are resurrected and taken to heaven immediately.

We know they precede the living.

We know Postrib s have that exactly backwards.

Rev 14 has a gathering of ripe fruit during the trib ( hello...you refute that....you say the rapture/ resurrection is after rev 14)

All facts....no assumptions.

I stand on Gods word while you futilely attempt to say I did not make you go against the bible.

That's what i showcase...you guys going against the bible.

I have such an easy job.

Read the passage. This is a harvest of grapes, not wheat.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[Absolutely]

Read the passage. This is a harvest of grapes, not wheat.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Yes re read it.
The ripe fruit is gathered by Jesus.

The over ripe gathered later. A separate harvest by angels. Not Jesus.

The ripe fruit is main harvest. The 144k are firstfruits of the main harvest.
The first two harvests are Jews.

The third is possibly Jew and gentile mix (the only harvest of three you looked at)

The Jews are ushered to safety early on or midway in the GT.
The GT is Jacobs trouble or the gathering of the Jews.

Hardly anyone is interested or takes the time to unpack revelation.

 

[Absolutely]

"""Read the passage. This is a harvest of grapes, not wheat."""

Ok
You are actually digging.
Very few are even willing to dig.

Now think on this:
In heaven, the last is first and visa vi. What was the first priestly miracle of Jesus?

At a wedding. Concerning wine. And festivities.
That is also the last.

It was declared " you saved the best wine for last"

That is rev 14.

Nobody else will tell you that.
Nobody

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Nice to see a peaceful discussion. So many different ideas out there. When you want the real answer, just come to papa Oyster.

More coffee?

So let's keep our eyes on the King.
The triumphant return of Our Lord is going to be most exciting time in human history!!
The prophetic record has more to say about it than anything else and our resurrection is tied to it.
Scripture flows together beautifully.

Matt 24
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
(NASB)

 

[presidente]

Yes re read it.
The ripe fruit is gathered by Jesus.

The over ripe gathered later. A separate harvest by angels. Not Jesus.

The ripe fruit is main harvest. The 144k are firstfruits of the main harvest.
The first two harvests are Jews.

The third is possibly Jew and gentile mix (the only harvest of three you looked at)

The Jews are ushered to safety early on or midway in the GT.
The GT is Jacobs trouble or the gathering of the Jews.

Hardly anyone is interested or takes the time to unpack revelation.

Show specific verses you are referring to, please, along with scripture to back up how you interpret the passages.

My approach is to accept what the very clear didactic passages teach, and allegorical type passages need to be interpreted in line with the clear passages. Your approach seems to be to ignore what the clear didactic teaching passages teach, and use allegorical interpretations of apocalyptic literature to back up your interpretation. Not to take anything from apocalyptic literature in scripture, but these passages can be interpreted numerous ways.

Can you reconcile pre-trib with II Thessalonians 1, where the church is still here when Jesus returns and executes vengence on them that believe not? How could that passage possibly be reconciled with pre-trib?

I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture at the parousia, the coming of Christ. In II Thessalonians 2, 'that wicked' is destroyed at the brightness of Christ's parousia. How is this reconcilable with pre-trib? How could the man of sin do all the things he will do BEFORE the rapture if he is destroyed at the parousia, and the rapture also occurs at the parousia? Deal with the plain, straightforward passages first, before coming up with allegorical interpretations of Revelation.

 

[Absolutely]

Show specific verses you are referring to, please, along with scripture to back up how you interpret the passages.

My approach is to accept what the very clear didactic passages teach, and allegorical type passages need to be interpreted in line with the clear passages. Your approach seems to be to ignore what the clear didactic teaching passages teach, and use allegorical interpretations of apocalyptic literature to back up your interpretation. Not to take anything from apocalyptic literature in scripture, but these passages can be interpreted numerous ways.

Can you reconcile pre-trib with II Thessalonians 1, where the church is still here when Jesus returns and executes vengence on them that believe not? How could that passage possibly be reconciled with pre-trib?

I Thessalonians 4 sets the rapture at the parousia, the coming of Christ. In II Thessalonians 2, 'that wicked' is destroyed at the brightness of Christ's parousia. How is this reconcilable with pre-trib? How could the man of sin do all the things he will do BEFORE the rapture if he is destroyed at the parousia, and the rapture also occurs at the parousia? Deal with the plain, straightforward passages first, before coming up with allegorical interpretations of Revelation.

We both believe Jesus returns after the trib.
Some of your verses are that coming.

To say that is all there is,is to go against the bible.
(The coming on white horses IS NOT Jesus sitting on a cloud or acts one.)You actually need that dynamic to be true....No way is it even possible. You can not POSSIBLY force fit it honestly. No possible way.

You have yet to unpack Jesus on a cloud in rev. 14. Or " like manner" in acts 1.
Not to mention Mat 24 with Jesus using 2 pretrib dynamics with Noah and Lot.

Btw. It was you that invoked the " wheat/ grapes" analogy.

I thought you might want that dug into.
Instead you take some bizarre "anti analogy " position.....while invoking analogy.

Plain weird

 

[presidente]

We both believe Jesus returns after the trib.
Some of your verses are that coming.

To say that is all there is,is to go against the bible.
(The coming on white horses IS NOT Jesus sitting on a cloud or acts one.)You actually need that dynamic to be true....No way is it even possible. You can not POSSIBLY force fit it honestly. No possible way.

I do not follow your argument here. I am unaware of any verses about Christ 'sitting on' a cloud. Why would "He cometh with clouds' precludes the possibility of His riding a horse?

Do you have any reason to believe that flying horses repel clouds. I've never seen clouds move away from a flying horse. I have no reason to think that both cannot be present.

And I see no reason from scripture for there to be multiple second comings of Christ. It's an unreasonable position. Paul refers to the 'parousia', not multiple parousia's. The rapture occurs at the parousia. That wicked is destroyed at the brighteness of Christ's parousia.

You have yet to unpack Jesus on a cloud in rev. 14. Or " like manner" in acts 1.

In Acts 1, Jesus did not go up half way, come down for seven years, then ascend again.

Not to mention Mat 24 with Jesus using 2 pretrib dynamics with Noah and Lot.

This is a reference to what happens AFTER the tribulation in that passage. read my previous post.

Btw. It was you that invoked the " wheat/ grapes" analogy.

Grapes are associated with blood. There is a harvest of grain at the end of the age in one of the parables in Matthew.

 

[Absolutely]

I do not follow your argument here. I am unaware of any verses about Christ 'sitting on' a cloud. Why would "He cometh with clouds' precludes the possibility of His riding a horse?

Do you have any reason to believe that flying horses repel clouds. I've never seen clouds move away from a flying horse. I have no reason to think that both cannot be present.

And I see no reason from scripture for there to be multiple second comings of Christ. It's an unreasonable position. Paul refers to the 'parousia', not multiple parousia's. The rapture occurs at the parousia. That wicked is destroyed at the brighteness of Christ's parousia.



In Acts 1, Jesus did not go up half way, come down for seven years, then ascend again.


This is a reference to what happens AFTER the tribulation in that passage. read my previous post.



Grapes are associated with blood. There is a harvest of grain at the end of the age in one of the parables in Matthew.

I'm counting two " fors" and one " against" typologies.

"""In Acts 1, Jesus did not go up half way, come down for seven years, then ascend again."""

Way off the topic
Try looking at "like manner"
You have Jesus in the example of the angels coming with billions of saints blackening the sky to conquor in war with billions of white horses.

That is the 2nd coming on horses AFTER the GT.

The depiction of the angels makes that impossible.

Left by himself
Returns by himself....like manner.
Left as a groom taken away
Returns as a groom for his bride.
Left in peace no war no killing ...returns in like manner
Left with no horses
Returns with no horses.

You literally have to ignore all that.

I like what my bible says.
It says like manner.

But Postribs ignore so much.
Why?

 

[Absolutely]

"""Do you have any reason to believe that flying horses repel clouds. I've never seen clouds move away from a flying horse. I have no reason to think that both cannot be present."""

You do realize the danger of adding to revelation?

The following is Jesus sitting on a cloud???;
Really????;
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Carefully compare rev 14 to rev 19.

I just put a irreparable hole....permanent hole...you could sail a ship through...in postrib rapture theory


Rev 14
The coffin nail...big time.

 

[Absolutely]

You can not change Gods word enough to make postrib rapture fit..
Can not be done.

Not many people will buy it.

But why do it in the first place.

Just say " wow, were we ever decieved"

You know where that doctrine got traction????

The early church saw Israel destroyed and the Jews scattered.
They saw end times through that distorted prism.
No Israel.
GT must have already happened.
So a bunch of them saw ANY RAPTURE as postrib.

Others said they are already in the mil.

Distortions.
Based on distortions

 

[presidente]

I'm counting two " fors" and one " against" typologies.

"""In Acts 1, Jesus did not go up half way, come down for seven years, then ascend again."""

Way off the topic
Try looking at "like manner"
You have Jesus in the example of the angels coming with billions of saints blackening the sky to conquor in war with billions of white horses.

That is the 2nd coming on horses AFTER the GT.

The depiction of the angels makes that impossible.

Left by himself
Returns by himself....like manner.
Left as a groom taken away
Returns as a groom for his bride.
Left in peace no war no killing ...returns in like manner
Left with no horses
Returns with no horses.

You literally have to ignore all that.

I like what my bible says.
It says like manner.

But Postribs ignore so much.
Why?

There is the sound of an archangel when Christ returns. The Bible also says He returns with angels, and with ten thousands of his saints. Paul clarifies that they that are Christ's meet the Lord in the air. The Bible does not talk about multiple comings of Christ, over and over again. Paul was waiting for the coming of Christ. Where is there any reference to Jesus coming back multiple times? Where is the pre-trib rapture event described in any passage that lays out a sequence? It is not in Revelation or Matthew 24. Why would the passage skip over such a big event if Jesus is going to come back more than once? Why doesn't the Bible teach that Jesus comes back multiple times if this is the case? If it does, show us some scripture that actually teaches this?

What I don't get is why you believe in pretrib if the best argument you can come up with is the kind of stuff listed above or the idea that 'not appointed unto wrath' does not allow for the saints to be on the earth. The Bible does not indicate that God is angry with the tribulational saints.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

There is the sound of an archangel when Christ returns. The Bible also says He returns with angels, and with ten thousands of his saints. Paul clarifies that they that are Christ's meet the Lord in the air. The Bible does not talk about multiple comings of Christ, over and over again. Paul was waiting for the coming of Christ. Where is there any reference to Jesus coming back multiple times? Where is the pre-trib rapture event described in any passage that lays out a sequence? It is not in Revelation or Matthew 24. Why would the passage skip over such a big event if Jesus is going to come back more than once? Why doesn't the Bible teach that Jesus comes back multiple times if this is the case? If it does, show us some scripture that actually teaches this?

What I don't get is why you believe in pretrib if the best argument you can come up with is the kind of stuff listed above or the idea that 'not appointed unto wrath' does not allow for the saints to be on the earth. The Bible does not indicate that God is angry with the tribulational saints.

I think the whole Bible tells the same story. As you've said. There is one return of Jesus.
Pop-Christianity doesn't encourage Christians to look for the 2nd coming. Just to escape tribulation.
That's not the message the prophets, Jesus or the apostles gave us.

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin,
but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto the resurrection of damnation.

The deliverer is coming!! But before deliverance, the enemy attacks. As in EVERY pattern of Biblical prophecy.
The plagues are poured out on Egypt before the deliverance from Pharaoh.
After the last plague he draws pharaoh out. This mirrors Armageddon.
God isn't unable to protect one group while he pours his wrath out on another one.

Psalm 91:7
A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

 

[Blade]

I praise GOD man (me in that) has no say in this. I blindly take what Christ said and .. thats it. He will come take us receive us unto Him self so where He is THERE we will be. He said you know WHERE I am going you know how.

So where I am there you will be. Me? Man I will have my eyes on only HIM!

 

[Absolutely]

There is the sound of an archangel when Christ returns. The Bible also says He returns with angels, and with ten thousands of his saints. Paul clarifies that they that are Christ's meet the Lord in the air. The Bible does not talk about multiple comings of Christ, over and over again. Paul was waiting for the coming of Christ. Where is there any reference to Jesus coming back multiple times? Where is the pre-trib rapture event described in any passage that lays out a sequence? It is not in Revelation or Matthew 24. Why would the passage skip over such a big event if Jesus is going to come back more than once? Why doesn't the Bible teach that Jesus comes back multiple times if this is the case? If it does, show us some scripture that actually teaches this?

What I don't get is why you believe in pretrib if the best argument you can come up with is the kind of stuff listed above or the idea that 'not appointed unto wrath' does not allow for the saints to be on the earth. The Bible does not indicate that God is angry with the tribulational saints.

You are welcome to believe anything you want.

Don't let me sway you.

Do your own research.

The things I am telling you are from research and you are not familiar with.

You reject every word whether or not you can disprove anything I have told you.

All you " know" is pretrib rapture is incorrect.

That is your starting place.

That is why you can not challenge my posts.

You never have and never will.

Ignoring verses is your friend.

 

[Absolutely]

I praise GOD man (me in that) has no say in this. I blindly take what Christ said and .. thats it. He will come take us receive us unto Him self so where He is THERE we will be. He said you know WHERE I am going you know how.

So where I am there you will be. Me? Man I will have my eyes on only HIM!

Amen
That is the only strategy.

Be wise like the 5 wise virgins.
Keep plenty of oil. ( Holy Spirit)

The bible ends with the bride saying " come Lord Jesus"

If I do not think he could crack the sky at any moment and come, that prayer could not possibly resonate.

 

[Absolutely]

I think the whole Bible tells the same story. As you've said. There is one return of Jesus.
Pop-Christianity doesn't encourage Christians to look for the 2nd coming. Just to escape tribulation.
That's not the message the prophets, Jesus or the apostles gave us.

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin,
but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto the resurrection of damnation.

The deliverer is coming!! But before deliverance, the enemy attacks. As in EVERY pattern of Biblical prophecy.
The plagues are poured out on Egypt before the deliverance from Pharaoh.
After the last plague he draws pharaoh out. This mirrors Armageddon.
God isn't unable to protect one group while he pours his wrath out on another one.

Psalm 91:7
A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

Amazingly Jesus uses prejudgement examples.

Noah
Lot

But we also have the baby Jesus.

All three removed prejudgement.

The models we do have of " going through" are Israel.
The fiery furnace is a vivid picture of ISRAEL going through the GT.

The plagues of Egypt the same deal.

Pssssst...that is why it is called " Jacobs/ Israels" trouble.
That is why ONLY JEWS are sealed against the flying scorpions.

That is why ONLY JEWS are ushered into safety with the devil in pursuit.

Note the similarity.
Pharaoh dying in the water.( swallowed by Gods flood)

In rev a flood is sent to destroy the Jews. (The earth swallowed the flood)

Jacobs trouble
The church removed
Jacobs trouble begins.

Jacobs trouble has zero to do with the church.

The time of the gentile ends. Jacobs trouble begins.

That is why ps 91 is REMOVED concerning the church.

The AC receives power to overcome the saints.
He kills every last one of them.
No ps 91. They are all martyred.

All the apostles save John were all martyrs.
No ps 91 at martyrdom.
No ps 91 for Christians during the GT.

The church age ends.
Jacobs trouble begins.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Amazingly Jesus uses prejudgement examples.

Noah
Lot

But we also have the baby Jesus.

All three removed prejudgement.

The models we do have of " going through" are Israel.
The fiery furnace is a vivid picture of ISRAEL going through the GT.

The plagues of Egypt the same deal.

Pssssst...that is why it is called " Jacobs/ Israels" trouble.
That is why ONLY JEWS are sealed against the flying scorpions.

That is why ONLY JEWS are ushered into safety with the devil in pursuit.

Note the similarity.
Pharaoh dying in the water.( swallowed by Gods flood)

In rev a flood is sent to destroy the Jews. (The earth swallowed the flood)

Jacobs trouble
The church removed
Jacobs trouble begins.

Jacobs trouble has zero to do with the church.

The time of the gentile ends. Jacobs trouble begins.

That is why ps 91 is REMOVED concerning the church.

The AC receives power to overcome the saints.
He kills every last one of them.
No ps 91. They are all martyred.

All the apostles save John were all martyrs.
No ps 91 at martyrdom.
No ps 91 for Christians during the GT.

The church age ends.
Jacobs trouble begins.

All I see is a lot of presumption there. False narratives with not a single scripture to back any of it up.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I praise GOD man (me in that) has no say in this. I blindly take what Christ said and .. thats it. He will come take us receive us unto Him self so where He is THERE we will be. He said you know WHERE I am going you know how.

So where I am there you will be. Me? Man I will have my eyes on only HIM!

Indeed. When he comes he is revealing himself. You will be with him where he is right here in his Kingdom on earth.

2 Thes 1

6 God is just: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you

7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marvelled at among all those who have believed.
This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[Absolutely]

All I see is a lot of presumption there. False narratives with not a single scripture to back any of it up.

Show me one specifically.

I will wait

 

[Absolutely]

Indeed. When he comes he is revealing himself. You will be with him where he is right here in his Kingdom on earth.

2 Thes 1

6 God is just: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you

7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marvelled at among all those who have believed.
This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Yes
Definately.