Belief a CHOICE?

[NickInCali]

I'm sorry to inform you of this, but Molinism is purely philosophy and has no scriptural grounding. In fact, when one reads portions of the bible (isaiah 10 for example) we see that such a thing as Molinism couldn't work biblically.

You'll have to explain for us how you think Isaiah 10 contradicts Molinism.

 

[Saul_Durian]

You'll have to explain for us how you think Isaiah 10 contradicts Molinism.

I agree there, I had to go back and re-read it...but it was lost on me as well.

 

[zackabba]

"Sovereignty is God's absolute and exclusive right to exercise authority in the universe (I Chron 29:11-12; I Sam 2:6-8; Psa 50:10-11)."

Is a pretty standard interpretation on what the bible says on God's sovereignty. God isn't just omniscient he is omnipotent.

No, I meant that's what middle knowledge implies - which, I guess it doesn't now.


God is all sovereign and all-knowing. I guess I confused that a little bit, to my fault.


Grace and Love

 

[zackabba]

See 1 Peter 1 and Romans 8, where election/predestination are said to be based on God's foreknowledge.

I agree. It is based on His foreknowledge - if, of course, you take foreknowledge to be a verb. Romans 8 says that He choose the roles of Jacob and Esau before they had done good or bad.

And he's absolutely right in holding such a view. This has always been the Achilles heel of Calvinism (or any system that rejects free will). God ceases to be just in any meaningful sense if mans freedom is not acknowledged.

God has to bend down to our will, otherwise He's not just.

Actually, in my eyes it's to the contrary - why didn't God do more to make Sodom and Gomorrah believe? God did all He could, yet He wasn't powerful enough to make them believe.

I believe God consigned them over to belief - they were a vessel of destruction to His glory, to show His great power, to show His wrath, to put fear in the hearts of many, to show Him, my Father, as a mighty Judge. At least, this is what the Bible implies.



So wait, you deny that God even POSSESSES middle knowledge, at all? In doing so you're basically denying God's omniscience. Middle knowledge is just a subset of Gods knowledge of all things, past, present, and future, as well as all things actual and possible. For an example of middle knowledge in the Bible, see where Jesus chides Bethsaida in the Gospels, by saying that if He had performed the miracles He did for them in Sodom and Gomorrah, those cities WOULD HAVE repented. This is a textbook example of middle knowledge.

God knows everything past, present, and future, because He is there. He is eternal, not constrained by time. So, I could even say that indeed we are "seated up with Christ" and mean that we are truly there right now...yet, we are not there at the same time.

As for the city, that it would have repented, do you believe that the people He was talking to would have understood that there are multiple paths that one can take, and that God knows the outcome of all of them...or, was Jesus just trying to illustrate a point? I would go with the latter.

Middle knowledge does not threaten Gods sovereignty at all.

...except that it shows that He must bend to our will - our will be done, not His. Of course, death has been defeated by Christ, and you would embrace that whole-heartedly no doubt - the question is, how does it so happen that Christ came at the time GOD had appointed, the perfect time for Him to come? Was God saying "Wait, Son, hold on...wait a few more years...aw, Israel, c'mon! Well, just hang tight for a while Son." I would think not.




Grace and Love


(and, remember, we are both fallible - I could be wrong, you could be right, but none of us has it all in the bag. We do believe in Christ, though, and He has everything in the bag - He is victorious!)

 

[zackabba]

"Peter 2:21 says of evildoers, "It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them." Jeremiah 42:19-22 also shows that if you are not determined to obey God, you are better off not asking what God’s will is. So in judgment not only is the amount of evil a factor, but also how much truth a one has."

I would agree.

I would add that knowing what the Truth is no way results in actually believing in that Truth. So, even the apostates mentioned in Hebrews really never knew Christ, were not born again - they tasted, but they were enticed by their desires, blinded by them, only willing to follow Satan's lies.



Grace and Love

 

[NickInCali]

...except that it shows that He must bend to our will - our will be done, not His.

This is untrue. It is God who gave men free will and who chooses, in His goodness, to allow us to cooperate with His grace. It is within His plan to predestine those whom He foreknew. His will is absolutely done.

Of course, death has been defeated by Christ, and you would embrace that whole-heartedly no doubt - the question is, how does it so happen that Christ came at the time GOD had appointed, the perfect time for Him to come? Was God saying "Wait, Son, hold on...wait a few more years...aw, Israel, c'mon! Well, just hang tight for a while Son." I would think not.

How God timed the Incarnation in human history is a distinct question than how exactly God chooses to predestine people. I agree, as all orthodox Christians do, that God is not "surprised" by anything we do. That has nothing to do with Molinism.

(and, remember, we are both fallible - I could be wrong, you could be right, but none of us has it all in the bag.

While I agree you and I are fallible, Christ's Church is certainly NOT fallible, as the pillar and ground of the truth. I'm Catholic, so I'm sure you and I see things differently in that regard, and thats a topic for another time. That being said, the Church doesn't "choose a side" between Thomism and Molinism, although any system that absolutely rejects free will is certainly out.

 

[Relena7]

I was brought up in a Christian family, and never questioned the existence of God in all my childhood.

But when I was about late 17 and 18, I began to have my first ever doubting thoughts, these resulted in horrible chain reactions of internalized freak outs and scary realizations, because for the first time ever, I began to understand that I actually had a choice to believe in God.

The fact that believing in God and the bible could even BE a choice and he may not be real freaked me out. Because it made everything in the entire world and universe seem unstable and alien in my head. I felt utterly alone, and helpless to save myself from my mind. My world turned upside down cause I had never before had those beliefs in my head challenged. I had felt like the worst person in the world because I could not force myself to believe in God and could not relax, and reading the Bible just made me feel worse...I thought there was something really wrong with me.

I suppose it's a normal part of growing up as a Christian. At least I think it is? I don't hear many people talk about having an "explosion of conflict age". but it wouldn't surprise me if it happens to at least a few others.

Anyway, I'd like to say the conflict has stopped forever, but it's still there sometimes. Just different types now, and much less extreme.


Belief is a choice but only under very specific conditions. You gotta be open, gotta be leaning toward it already, and gotta want it and not be fearful of the truths you'll uncover.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

This is a fascinating topic. I'm not sure I ever "chose" to believe. Honestly, when it comes down to it, I think God chose me, not the other way around.

I do think rstrats is onto something. How is it... why is it ... that so many people cannot believe, even if they want to. I mean really, if someone said, "Ok, either believe in me or you'll die," if it were as easy as making a choice, DUH, you'd make that choice, right? Obviously, it's not as simple as that. Of all the non-believers I know, most of them have, at some point, wanted to believe, or even tried to believe. Some of them have even prayed for faith, and never received that "gift" of faith. I don't know how to explain it, and I don't know why I believe so easily. I do know that my faith in God defies all logic, all reason, all explanation. It is a quantum leap to accept something I cannot see, hear, touch, taste, or smell, something I cannot "know" the way that I "know" that 2+2=4, and yet I believe more strongly than any factoid you could prove in a math book. It certainly is something of a different realm, and I'm not convinced human language will ever be adequate to describe it.

 

[rstrats]

Saul_Durian,
　
re: "...I say leprechaun is a bad example, because not many people actually believe in them. "
　
And that is why they were suggested since it seemed likely that a person wouldn’t already have a belief in them.
　
　
　
　
re: "I know, that was the point."
　
I’m afraid I don’t see your point. Why would you present a contradictory comment?
　
　
　
　
re: " You choose to believe the scripture every time someone speaks against it."
　
That is incorrect. As I said, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have.
　
　


re: "But I think I know what you are trying to say. "
　
That would be correct only if you understand what I’m saying -i.e., asking for - in the OP.

 

[rstrats]

NickInCali,
　
re: "Not exactly. There could, of course, be a time when you're in intellectual limbo about a topic and aren't sure what to believe."

And it is at that time that you don’t have a belief with regard to the issue. There are only 2 possibilities - you have a belief or you don’t have a belief. You can’t have both states of mind at the same time with regard to the same thing. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other.
　
　

re: "Really? You really have no idea why someone wouldn't just start believing something simply because you ask them to..."
　
No. I asked for some help. I really don’t see why someone in CCR&F wouldn’t want to do that if they were able to.
　


re: "Your only reason for suggesting someone should believe in leprechauns is to satisfy your morbid curiosity..."
　
What is "morbid" about wanting to be able to consciously CHOOSE one’s beliefs?

 

[rstrats]

Relena7,

re: "Belief is a choice but only under very specific conditions. You gotta be open, gotta be leaning toward it already, and gotta want it and not be fearful of the truths you'll uncover. "


And then what?

 

[crissy17]

Whenever we talk about beliefs and choices, it inevitably leads to a discussion of free will. Are human beings able to make any free choices at all? But libertarian freedom implies that you can choose to investigate and reason through ideas.God holds us accountable for our actions and our choices. One aspect of being human is the ability to look beyond one's habits and customs and ask questions like "why". Why do we do this or that? What reasons do we have for doing thus and so? In fact, we consider it progress when we don't simply act as we have done in the past, but investigate whether what we are doing has good reasons behind it.
The Bible teaches this view as well. We know that we are told to test our beliefs - even those that support Christianity. Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 that we should "examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good". This means all that we hold should be looked at with careful consideration to see if there is a good basis for our holding that view.

 

[tribesman]

There is no "free will" for the sinner in spiritual matters since he is DEAD in his sins and trespasses.

The carnal, natural, man does not receive or will anything that is of God's good will. Only a regenerated person does that.

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Phil.2

[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Col.2

[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[NickInCali]

NickInCali,
　
re: "Not exactly. There could, of course, be a time when you're in intellectual limbo about a topic and aren't sure what to believe."

And it is at that time that you don’t have a belief with regard to the issue. There are only 2 possibilities - you have a belief or you don’t have a belief. You can’t have both states of mind at the same time with regard to the same thing. There has to be an instant when your one state of mind changes to the other.
　

But again, people do not make this change overnight on a whim. Coming to accept a belief, particularly a complex one like belief in something supernatural, involves a process. So your request for someone to just change their belief right now for no reason other than asking them to, isn't going to happen.
　

re: "Really? You really have no idea why someone wouldn't just start believing something simply because you ask them to..."
　
No. I asked for some help. I really don’t see why someone in CCR&F wouldn’t want to do that if they were able to.
　

Because people have a desire to be RIGHT when they believe something. No one holds beliefs they think are false. Again, people don't just come to believe things on a whim.

re: "Your only reason for suggesting someone should believe in leprechauns is to satisfy your morbid curiosity..."
　
What is "morbid" about wanting to be able to consciously CHOOSE one’s beliefs?

It's an expression. People aren't going to choose to believe something that is ridiculous, such as the existence of leprechauns, simply because you tell them. People take their beliefs more seriously than that.

 

[NickInCali]

Sorry Zack, I didn't see the rest of your response that was hidden in quotes! Let me give a more complete response:

I agree. It is based on His foreknowledge - if, of course, you take foreknowledge to be a verb. Romans 8 says that He choose the roles of Jacob and Esau before they had done good or bad.

You're actually thinking of Romans 9 there. Foreknowledge is a noun, as used in 1 Peter; foreknew is a verb, as used in Romans 8. Romans 9 is a discussion of the nation of Israel and how God chose them corporately. The verse you're referring to is not talking about the individual salvation of Jacob and Esau, it's talking about how God chose them as heads of separate lineages for His own purposes.

God has to bend down to our will, otherwise He's not just.

It's not about Him "bending," it's about Him loving. God loves us and wants our love in return, which if we have no free will, isn't really possible. God chooses to allow us to have freedom so that we can freely choose Him and love and serve Him.

Actually, in my eyes it's to the contrary - why didn't God do more to make Sodom and Gomorrah believe? God did all He could, yet He wasn't powerful enough to make them believe.

So because God didn't "make" them believe, He is not powerful enough to do so? You seem to be jumping all over the map here. Sodom and Gomorrah had enough grace, as we all do, to repent and do what is right if they had chosen to do so. Could God have "done more?" Sure. God could open up the heavens right this moment and come down in all His glory. But He doesn't. Why? Well, it seems to me God is interested in us having this little thing called faith. As Jesus told Doubting Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet have believed."

I believe God consigned them over to belief - they were a vessel of destruction to His glory, to show His great power, to show His wrath, to put fear in the hearts of many, to show Him, my Father, as a mighty Judge. At least, this is what the Bible implies.

I don't have a problem with this description, as long as it is understood that, on an individual level, each Sodomite and Gomorrite had the opportunity to repent and do what's right, and chose not to do so.

As for the city, that it would have repented, do you believe that the people He was talking to would have understood that there are multiple paths that one can take, and that God knows the outcome of all of them...or, was Jesus just trying to illustrate a point? I would go with the latter.

I don't think it's an either/or choice there. As with many teachings of Jesus (and the rest of the Bible), there is certainly a down-to-earth, in-the-moment practical application that is involved. But there are simultaneously deeper levels that point to more fundamental theological and spiritual truths. So yes, Jesus was making a point...the people He was talking to were being stubborn, hard-hearted idiots who needed to wake up and smell the miracles. But in making that point, Jesus revealed that His knowledge (and by extension, Gods knowledge generally) includes all things possible, not just all things actual.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

If you can choose to believe, then you can choose to be saved.

If you can choose to be saved, then salvation is a work that the individual does, not something that God does.

If salvation is something we choose for ourselves, then there is no need for Christ Jesus.

As for me and my house, we shall worship the LORD (Christ Jesus). Salvation is a gift of grace.

 

[lil_christian]

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”


Unbelief and Its Consequences

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Romans 2:1-5

The Impartiality of God

1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

Romans 5:15-17

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

 

[Relena7]

Relena7,

re: "Belief is a choice but only under very specific conditions. You gotta be open, gotta be leaning toward it already, and gotta want it and not be fearful of the truths you'll uncover. "


And then what?

Then wait for the dust (conflict) to settle. After that, it's your choice to pick a belief or seek further if not satisfied.

 

[rstrats]

NickInCali,
　
re: "But again, people do not make this change overnight on a whim."

But they can if beliefs can be engendered by simply CHOOSING to have them.
　


re: "Coming to accept a belief, particularly a complex one like belief in something supernatural, involves a process."

How would you know when the process was completed so that you could go ahead and be able to say: "I’ve completed the process, and while I still don’t believe that "X" exists, I am going to go ahead and believe that it does exist, and ----poof---- I now believe that it exists"?
　
　

re: "Really? You really have no idea why someone wouldn't just start believing something simply because you ask them to..."


No, I really don’t . I asked for some help. I really don’t see why someone in CCR&F wouldn’t want to do that if they were able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. There would be no effort on their part - just go ahead and make the instantaneous transition.





re: "People aren't going to choose to believe something that is ridiculous..."

But again, they could. If beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them why not just go ahead and just do it if it will demonstrate their ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things? What harm can it do?

 

[zackabba]

Sorry Zack, I didn't see the rest of your response that was hidden in quotes! Let me give a more complete response:

You're actually thinking of Romans 9 there. Foreknowledge is a noun, as used in 1 Peter; foreknew is a verb, as used in Romans 8. Romans 9 is a discussion of the nation of Israel and how God chose them corporately. The verse you're referring to is not talking about the individual salvation of Jacob and Esau, it's talking about how God chose them as heads of separate lineages for His own purposes.

Aye, you're right about that - my bad. I couldn't remember if it was Romans 8 or 9 - I did know that 9 talks about vessels of mercy and vessels of destruction.

I never talked about the individual salvation of them - I meant just as you said. However, God didn't look and see what their actions would be - He chose their roles before they even did anything, good or bad.


It's not about Him "bending," it's about Him loving. God loves us and wants our love in return, which if we have no free will, isn't really possible. God chooses to allow us to have freedom so that we can freely choose Him and love and serve Him.

The point is, we are dead in our trespasses before we accept Christ. Only those that the Father has chosen will come to Him - He calls them out of darkness into light through His Son Jesus Christ, who will raise all that come to Him up on the last day to salvation.

We are not our own - we were bought by the blood of Christ. He chose us before we chose Him, not the other way around. He uses us for His glory and His own purposes.

But then you would say, "Who can resist His will?" and I would say "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"


So because God didn't "make" them believe, He is not powerful enough to do so? You seem to be jumping all over the map here. Sodom and Gomorrah had enough grace, as we all do, to repent and do what is right if they had chosen to do so. Could God have "done more?" Sure. God could open up the heavens right this moment and come down in all His glory. But He doesn't. Why? Well, it seems to me God is interested in us having this little thing called faith. As Jesus told Doubting Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet have believed."

God is all powerful. He can do so. But you seem to believe that He did all He could to lead them to believe, but they didn't. Unless you believe that He didn't do that, but instead only did that with select people like Paul.

God is interested in us having faith. The question is, where does this faith come from? Is it out of the "goodness" of our hearts (the ones that were dead in sins and rejected God), or could it be that God gave it to us as a gift, and truly saved us by His mercy? Is it that we truly *didn't* deserve it, and that He saved those He had chosen out of His sovereign grace, as He is still doing? Or do we take credit for it, seeing as we, of course, believed in the first place?

I would say, He gives us the gift of faith, pouring His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit whom He has given to us.


I don't have a problem with this description, as long as it is understood that, on an individual level, each Sodomite and Gomorrite had the opportunity to repent and do what's right, and chose not to do so.


I don't think it's an either/or choice there. As with many teachings of Jesus (and the rest of the Bible), there is certainly a down-to-earth, in-the-moment practical application that is involved. But there are simultaneously deeper levels that point to more fundamental theological and spiritual truths. So yes, Jesus was making a point...the people He was talking to were being stubborn, hard-hearted idiots who needed to wake up and smell the miracles. But in making that point, Jesus revealed that His knowledge (and by extension, Gods knowledge generally) includes all things possible, not just all things actual.


I wish I had a quote from the Bible to back up these claims.




Grace and Love