Baptism of fire

[eternally-gratefull]

Supernatural gifts such as speaking in tongues is usually associated with the Holy Spirit: "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." - Acts 2:4.

Baptism by fire in terms of a "refiner's fire" could be seen as a reference to 1 Cor 3:13-15.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is... If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." - 1 Cor 3:13-15

This passage is especially relevant to the parable of wheat because the analogy of wheat is in reference to fruits of faith, and the fruits of our faith are our works.

YHWH alludes to purification in Isaiah 1:25 "And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin" which follows with the concept of Mat 3:12's reference to using a winnowing fork (basically a "dehusker") to burn the chaff (the husk) of the wheat. All wheat has chaff. A winnowing fork is used to separate/purify wheat from its chaff.

"When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee." - Isaiah 43:2

In my opinion, there is a strong case for applying the refiner's fire interpretation to "baptism by fire".

1 cor is not an eternal life. It will be a fire that is momentary and when it is extinguished or goes out. It will not longer be there. So this can not be the fire mentioned by John the baptist.

The gift of the spirit are certainly a result of the spirit. However. They are result of the scripture who is put or given to us. or as the way the spirit entered jesus, to come into or on us. In scripture terms. This is anointing. Scripture says we have been anointed by the spirit. This is where all gifting comes from. This is a seperate act of God from the baptism of the spirit.

In the baptism of the spirit. We are cleansed by God and made righteous in him. While true, We could have no gifts apart from this baptism. The gifts are not directly related to this ministry of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, and at some point we make a decision as to who is doing the best job of discovering authorial intent even if it requires one to change a previously held position. Sometimes the best we can do is make a choice and stay open.

I changed many of my views by studying myself. and finding out those I trusted for years i could no longer in those areas trust. Because what I saw in my studies did not match up what they said. Does not mean I was right. But again, I will be judged based on what I believe not on what they said

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here are a few more contributions to the discussion:


The superiority of the “stronger one” is explained in terms of two baptisms (clearly marked as a contrast by a classical men/de construction): John’s water-baptism is a preliminary ritual “with a view to repentance,” clearing the way for the real thing, the “stronger one’s” baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire. 65 Water is an outward sign, but the work of the Holy Spirit will be inward. Since fire occurs in both v. 10 and v. 12 (and probably also by implication in v. 7 in the imagery of the snakes escaping the fire) as a metaphor for God’s judgment, it should probably be taken in the same sense here. The coming of the Holy Spirit will burn away what is bad and so purify the repentant people of God. 66 For a similar metaphor in the OT see Isa 4:4; Zech 13:9; Mal 3:2–4.

Foot Notes on verse 11

65. R. L. Webb, John 272–275, argues convincingly for this combination of Holy Spirit and fire being the original version of John’s message, despite Mark’s omission of πυρί and against the suggestion of some that orignially only fire was mentioned, the Holy Spirit being a Christianizing of John’s message of judgment. Note the use of the imagery of fire in connection with the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:3).

66. Albright & Mann, 26–27, argue on the basis of Qumran evidence that πνεύματι ἁγίῳ καὶ πύρι is a hendiadys, and translate “with the fire of the Holy Spirit;” the Greek wording, which combines the two nouns under the single preposition hen, suggests the same. The case is more fully argued by Davies & Allison, 1.317. Matthew’s wording does not support the assumption of some commentators that the Holy Spirit and fire denote the contrasting fates of different groups of people (“Those producing good fruit will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Those producing bad fruit will suffer unending punishment.” Gundry, 49). B. Charette, Recompense 122, n. 4, supports Gundry’s view on the grounds that John is still addressing the Pharisees and Sadducees, but the “you” of this verse denotes those baptized by John, not the critical bystanders.


France, R. T.. The Gospel of Matthew (The New International Commentary on the New Testament) (p. 113). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

Non of these arguments answer the question about the fire that no one can extinguish.

Thats why we have to go deep. If I believed that baptism of fire was given to all believers. I could read these things and easily say yep. here we go makes sense to me.

But if I am honest. They leave the one unanswered question out.

also. with the fire of the holy spirit??

pneumati hagio kai pyri

holy spirit and fire

the word Kai is translated with and, even or also. not "of" as this person stated (which would be the greek word eis or pyri eis pneumati hagio)

again, We need to not just glance, but go deeper

 

[Jocund]

1 cor is not an eternal life. It will be a fire that is momentary and when it is extinguished or goes out. It will not longer be there. So this can not be the fire mentioned by John the baptist.
.

What in 1 Cor 3 leads you to believe that the fire is momentary? What in 1 Cor 3 leads you to assume that the fire is extinguished? From the burning bush to eyes of fire, God often manifests Himself as fire. "God is a consuming fire" - Deuteronomy 4:24 & Hebrews 12:29.

Consider the interpretation that the trial by fire is a purification in the most personal sense. A direct and personal unmaking and cleansing of all of the evil and pain by God himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What in 1 Cor 3 leads you to believe that the fire is momentary? What in 1 Cor 3 leads you to assume that the fire is extinguished? From the burning bush to eyes of fire, God often manifests Himself as fire. "God is a consuming fire" - Deuteronomy 4:24 & Hebrews 12:29.

Consider the interpretation that the trial by fire is a purification in the most personal sense. A direct and personal unmaking and cleansing of all of the evil and pain by God himself.

A trial, a trial is temporary. That fire is something that is lit, then goes out when the fire goes out,

what in matt makes you think it is not hell?

also. What in matt makes you think the baptism of the holly spirit happens over and Over?
baptism in water is once
baptism in the spirit is once
why would we think baptism in fire is not also one act?

 

[Runningman]

A trial, a trial is temporary. That fire is something that is lit, then goes out when the fire goes out,

what in matt makes you think it is not hell?

also. What in matt makes you think the baptism of the holly spirit happens over and Over?
baptism in water is once
baptism in the spirit is once
why would we think baptism in fire is not also one act?

Good questions and points I did not think of at first.

I think the part that people are getting hung up on is that chaff are initially integral parts of the wheat that are later removed with a winnowing fork, not fire. The fork removes the chaff and the fires burns the chaff.

The broader contact here is repentance. John is telling them that if they do not repent then they are like a tree that will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

We know that repentance is part of submission to God.

The imagry I get out of this is that the wicked are unrepentant and because of this they will be treated like chaff and burned.

The repentant are useful to God and are like wheat.

I am in agreement with you that the context of these verses in regards to the baptism of fire is definitely judgement and final destination, but certainly not a blessing for repentant people.

The key point here, as far as I can tell, are:

1. The audience of numerous people
2. The context of repentance
3. The unquenchable fire

I think the baptism of fire as a blessing from God is most likely a denominational teaching and not Biblical.

 

[Runningman]

I would also like to add the following Old Testament verses for examination:

Psalm 1:4 and Hosea13:2-3

These say the wicked are like chaff.

I think the Pharisees and Sadducees were well-read in the scriptures and would have known exactly what John the Baptist was saying: repent because judgment is coming.

 

[MattforJesus]

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

The baptism of the Holy Ghost, and with fire is for the saints.

All sin must be purged with fire which the saints have their sins purged by receiving the Holy Ghost.

That is why the Bible says the old heaven shall melt with fervent heat for it has been tainted with sin by the fallen angels, and earth shall be burned up and all the works of it for it has been tainted with sin by people, and the wicked shall be cast in to the lake of fire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

The baptism of the Holy Ghost, and with fire is for the saints.

All sin must be purged with fire which the saints have their sins purged by receiving the Holy Ghost.

That is why the Bible says the old heaven shall melt with fervent heat for it has been tainted with sin by the fallen angels, and earth shall be burned up and all the works of it for it has been tainted with sin by people, and the wicked shall be cast in to the lake of fire.

Sin is taken care of with the baptism of the spirit, this is the spiritual circumcision mentioned by Paul in col 2, or the immersion into the death and burial of Christ mention in Romans 6, here is where our sins are washed away,

our sins are washed by the blood, and only God can immerse us into the blood

fire here is a sign of punishment not of refinement

 

[MattforJesus]

Sin is taken care of with the baptism of the spirit, this is the spiritual circumcision mentioned by Paul in col 2, or the immersion into the death and burial of Christ mention in Romans 6, here is where our sins are washed away,

our sins are washed by the blood, and only God can immerse us into the blood

fire here is a sign of punishment not of refinement

Luk 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Either he was telling them that they would be punished if they did not repent or he was telling them that they can be baptized unto repentance and receive the Holy Spirit and fire to purge them instead of hell.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luk 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Either he was telling them that they would be punished if they did not repent or he was telling them that they can be baptized unto repentance and receive the Holy Spirit and fire to purge them instead of hell.

Or he was telling them he baptized with water, but that was nothing compared to the one who would come, he will baptize with the HS amd fire

the what are believers, the barn is heaven

that chaff are unbelievers, the fire is the fires of hell

 

[Scribe]

Good questions and points I did not think of at first.

I think the part that people are getting hung up on is that chaff are initially integral parts of the wheat that are later removed with a winnowing fork, not fire. The fork removes the chaff and the fires burns the chaff.

The broader contact here is repentance. John is telling them that if they do not repent then they are like a tree that will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

We know that repentance is part of submission to God.

The imagry I get out of this is that the wicked are unrepentant and because of this they will be treated like chaff and burned.

The repentant are useful to God and are like wheat.

I am in agreement with you that the context of these verses in regards to the baptism of fire is definitely judgement and final destination, but certainly not a blessing for repentant people.

The key point here, as far as I can tell, are:

1. The audience of numerous people
2. The context of repentance
3. The unquenchable fire

I think the baptism of fire as a blessing from God is most likely a denominational teaching and not Biblical.

When is the first time it shows up in Christian literature?

 

[MattforJesus]

Or he was telling them he baptized with water, but that was nothing compared to the one who would come, he will baptize with the HS amd fire

the what are believers, the barn is heaven

that chaff are unbelievers, the fire is the fires of hell

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Luk 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

I believe John was saying that he baptizes with water but the saints will be baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire to purge them, and those that do not accept Jesus will be punished in fire.

With these verses you have to take that in to consideration and John was talking to people that might believe for he was talking to more people than the Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

[Runningman]

When is the first time it shows up in Christian literature?

When is the first time the baptism of fire shows up in Christian literature or when is the first time wicked are referred to as chaff?

Wicked like chaff seems to be Job 21:17-18 as far as I can tell.

As far as the etymology of the baptism of fire is concerned it is not referenced using the same language as it is in Matthew 3.

When it says "poured out upon" is that like a kind of baptism?

I had to do some researching for this one it's possibly here:

2 Chronicles 34
25Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.

Or maybe here:

Jeremiah 7
20Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Or here?

Lamentations 2
4He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.

 

[Runningman]

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Luk 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

I believe John was saying that he baptizes with water but the saints will be baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire to purge them, and those that do not accept Jesus will be punished in fire.

With these verses you have to take that in to consideration and John was talking to people that might believe for he was talking to more people than the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Key difference I think is that metals like silver and gold aren't destroyed by fire. They are purified by fire because the heat separates the metal from the impurities. Fire totally 100% destroys wheat and chaff, reducing them to ashes. That sounds more like annihilation or a kind of long term punishment.

 

[infinitekhanol]

I have heard numerous people over the years say they have received the "baptism of fire." The Bible describes what the baptism of fire is and it is not the same thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit baptism is the one we want. The baptism of fire is a reference to hellfire and we do not want that.

Verses often cited for what the baptism of fire is reveal a context that describes useless dead trees and chaff thrown into an unquenchable fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for 'wheat' which is just figurative language used to describe those who are saved. Jesus will gather His wheat into His barn.

Those who receive the baptism of fire is not what people sometimes think it is; again, it is a reference to hellfire.

(Underlines added by me)
Matthew 3:10-12 (KJV)
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

I tend to disagree. I have gone through some responses on this first page and I think Prigrimshope brought out some important facts that portray the meaning of being baptised with Fire.

The way I see it is this: Every believer will be baptised with the Holy Spirit and with Fire.

We Christians are so engrossed and happy with the baptism of the Holy Spirit that we tend to ignore the baptism of fire, thereby misconstruing the fire of affliction in our lives which serves three purposes:

To prove our faith

As a rod of chastisement of God so we can repent and turn to Him, for those He loves, He chastises.

To purify our mortal heart, mind and body and make us holy.

Fire is a refining agent. Raw gold and silver are subjected to the furnace of the earth to make them pure and fit for use. As silver and gold are tried in the furnace of the earth and purified, so also we are placed under the fire of affliction to prove our hearts towards God and be purified in the process. The fire is meant to burn off the lusts of the flesh (chaff) leaving the spirit stronger and whole to remain steadfast. Metaphorical speaking, the fire purges the sin away from our hearts making us whole in the process. The Lord is with his fan, thoroughly purging his floor separating the chaff from the wheat and burning the chaff in an unquenchable fire. God places us under trials for a glorious end. He says in Jeremiah 29:11, “For I know the thoughts that I think for you, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you an expected end”.

The experiences and understanding we garner while going through the trials of life increase our faith and enable us to grow and live a holy life. In Isaiah 48: 10, the Lord says, behold I have refined you but not with silver, I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction. Each affliction we go through in life must have meaning to us. This is the reason we are enjoined to glory in tribulation, knowing that tribulation works patience and patience experience and experience hope and in this process, we are not ashamed to remain hopeful, waiting for the " hope " of our righteousness by faith (Galatians 5:5) and for the glory of God to manifest in our lives for everyone to see, for the world waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.

We are not ashamed because we have the assurances of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which He has given us. (Romans 5:4-5). We feel alive and peaceful in it because the Holy Ghost walks with us all the way, giving the comfort and understanding we require to triumph and showing us the way to go.

In Hebrew 12: 5 -13 we read, as Oyster67 mentioned , you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, “ my son, despise not the chastening of the Lord nor faint when you are rebuked of Him for whom the Lord loves, He chastens and scourged every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons for what son is He whom the father chastens not? But, if you are without chastisement whereof all are partakers, then, are you bastards and not sons.

Furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us and we give them reverence, shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the father of spirits and live?, for they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure, but He for our profit that we might be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening of the present seems to be joyous but grievous, nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore, lift up the hands which hang down and the feeble knees and make straight paths for your feet lest that which is lame be turned out of the way but let it rather be healed.

Our Lord says in Revelation 3: 19 – 21, as many as I love I rebuke, and chasten, be zealous therefore and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and will eat with him and he with me. To him that overcomes, will I grant to sit with me in my throne even as I also overcame and am sat down with my father in His throne. I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire that you may be rich and white raiment that you may be clothed and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear and anoint your eyes with eyesalve that you may see.

In Revelation 3: 10, He says, “because you have kept the word of my patience, I will keep you from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth”. There is no one on this earth, who shall not face the trials or temptations of life. The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations through the action of the Holy Spirit.

Philippians1:29 ----- For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ , not only to believe in him but also to suffer for his sake. We must partake in his sufferings as part of the way of the cross.

 

[infinitekhanol]

No.

Matthew 3 is not saying that Jesus will give each believer a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism.

John the Baptist is not speaking to an individual in this narrative, but many people.

It's saying that He will give out a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism. That's because only God is capable of deciding those kind of judgments.

Both judgements cannot simultaneously apply to individuals. For example, someone can't be judged to be chaff and thrown into a furnace and then become wheat to be gathered into a barn. This is because it's talking about two different kinds of people.

Read Matthew 13:36-43 and see if it helps you understand better.

Fire baptism is not a judgement but part of the way of the cross every believer will go through.

 

[Runningman]

I tend to disagree. I have gone through some responses on this first page and I think Prigrimshope brought out some important facts that portray the meaning of being baptised with Fire.

The way I see it is this: Every believer will be baptised with the Holy Spirit and with Fire.

We Christians are so engrossed and happy with the baptism of the Holy Spirit that we tend to ignore the baptism of fire, thereby misconstruing the fire of affliction in our lives which serves three purposes:

To prove our faith

As a rod of chastisement of God so we can repent and turn to Him, for those He loves, He chastises.

To purify our mortal heart, mind and body and make us holy.

Fire is a refining agent. Raw gold and silver are subjected to the furnace of the earth to make them pure and fit for use. As silver and gold are tried in the furnace of the earth and purified, so also we are placed under the fire of affliction to prove our hearts towards God and be purified in the process. The fire is meant to burn off the lusts of the flesh (chaff) leaving the spirit stronger and whole to remain steadfast. Metaphorical speaking, the fire purges the sin away from our hearts making us whole in the process. The Lord is with his fan, thoroughly purging his floor separating the chaff from the wheat and burning the chaff in an unquenchable fire. God places us under trials for a glorious end. He says in Jeremiah 29:11, “For I know the thoughts that I think for you, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you an expected end”.

The experiences and understanding we garner while going through the trials of life increase our faith and enable us to grow and live a holy life. In Isaiah 48: 10, the Lord says, behold I have refined you but not with silver, I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction. Each affliction we go through in life must have meaning to us. This is the reason we are enjoined to glory in tribulation, knowing that tribulation works patience and patience experience and experience hope and in this process, we are not ashamed to remain hopeful, waiting for the " hope " of our righteousness by faith (Galatians 5:5) and for the glory of God to manifest in our lives for everyone to see, for the world waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.

We are not ashamed because we have the assurances of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which He has given us. (Romans 5:4-5). We feel alive and peaceful in it because the Holy Ghost walks with us all the way, giving the comfort and understanding we require to triumph and showing us the way to go.

In Hebrew 12: 5 -13 we read, as Oyster67 mentioned , you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, “ my son, despise not the chastening of the Lord nor faint when you are rebuked of Him for whom the Lord loves, He chastens and scourged every son whom He receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons for what son is He whom the father chastens not? But, if you are without chastisement whereof all are partakers, then, are you bastards and not sons.

Furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us and we give them reverence, shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the father of spirits and live?, for they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure, but He for our profit that we might be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening of the present seems to be joyous but grievous, nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore, lift up the hands which hang down and the feeble knees and make straight paths for your feet lest that which is lame be turned out of the way but let it rather be healed.

Our Lord says in Revelation 3: 19 – 21, as many as I love I rebuke, and chasten, be zealous therefore and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and will eat with him and he with me. To him that overcomes, will I grant to sit with me in my throne even as I also overcame and am sat down with my father in His throne. I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire that you may be rich and white raiment that you may be clothed and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear and anoint your eyes with eyesalve that you may see.

In Revelation 3: 10, He says, “because you have kept the word of my patience, I will keep you from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth”. There is no one on this earth, who shall not face the trials or temptations of life. The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations through the action of the Holy Spirit.

Philippians1:29 ----- For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ , not only to believe in him but also to suffer for his sake. We must partake in his sufferings as part of the way of the cross.

Matthew 3:8-12 is not talking about God chastising and correcting His children.

The context is definitely repenting by bearing fruits in keeping with repentance or else be treated like a fruitless tree that's cut down and burned in "unquenchable" fire.

I think if Matthew 3 was about correction then John the Baptist could have just said so. I don't think it's anywhere close to what you're suggesting for several reasons:

1. Jesus does not indiscriminately baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. So when John spoke to his audience the baptism reference must apply to them somehow, but since John is not Jesus he couldn't guarantee they'll receive a Holy Spirit baptism. Semantically, John is saying they'll receive either the Holy Spirit or fire.

2. The unquenchable fire is definitely a reference to hell. The only reference to fire that cannot be quenched is God's wrath or hell. Mark 9:47-48 says the fire of hell is not quenched.

3. I would like to add that wicked people are referred to as chaff frequently in the old testament: Job 21:17-18, Psalm 1:4, Hosea13:2-3

4. Only metals are purified by fire. The heat causes the impurities to separate from the valuable parts. Fire totally destroys wheat or chaff. Furthermore, the fire used to refine people isn't referred to as unquenchable.

5. The "flames as of tongues of fire" in the upper room on Pentecost are no unquenchable fires. Actually, 1 Thessalonians 5:19 says the Spirit can be quenched.

I think Matthew 3 parallels the parable of the weeds in Matthew 13:36-43.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is about salvation for the repentant (wheat). The baptism of fire is about hell for the unrepentant (chaff/dead trees/weeds).

 

[Scribe]

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Luk 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

I believe John was saying that he baptizes with water but the saints will be baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire to purge them, and those that do not accept Jesus will be punished in fire.

With these verses you have to take that in to consideration and John was talking to people that might believe for he was talking to more people than the Pharisees and Sadducees.

That's probably the best interpretation. One should definitely look to the Old Testament for prophesies that would match what John was saying. John had already set the pace for referring to OT prophesies concerning himself and his ministry. It stands to reason that this baptism in the Holy Spirit and in fire was something that can be found in the prophesies.

I think you are on the right track in this presentation.

 

[Scribe]

When is the first time the baptism of fire shows up in Christian literature or when is the first time wicked are referred to as chaff?

Wicked like chaff seems to be Job 21:17-18 as far as I can tell.

As far as the etymology of the baptism of fire is concerned it is not referenced using the same language as it is in Matthew 3.

When it says "poured out upon" is that like a kind of baptism?

I had to do some researching for this one it's possibly here:

2 Chronicles 34
25Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.

Or maybe here:

Jeremiah 7
20Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Or here?

Lamentations 2
4He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.

I was asking when is the first time an interpretation of John's statements about "baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire" shows up in Christian writers in church history?

Someone was suggesting that interpreting it as a spiritual fire that is part of the baptism of the Holy Spirit was a denominational view, but if it shows up in the early church fathers it would not be true that it is a denominational view but rather it is an interpretation first presented in Christian literature by ??? in date ???

Why does it matter? Because the fact that different people can read it and come to different conclusions is sometimes because they were taught it by their denomination but sometimes it is because they found reason to interpret that way from the scriptures themselves and if the earliest commentaries on the passage in extant precede denominations then it is not true that it is a denominational view. It cannot be dismissed so easily. We have to use a different reason than "it is a denominational view" to dismiss it.