Back-loading Works into the Gospel:

[JohnRH]

... where does the Bible command us to be assured of "someone else's" salvation

Why do you ask me that? That has nothing to do with what I said.

The first question that I typically ask someone who is lacking (to one degree or another) the assurance of their salvation is this, "is the way that you live your life now different in anyway from the way that you lived your life before you were saved?".

I'm seeing a circular reasoning in your statement. You're talking to someone who lacks assurance, and your question asserts that he was saved; "... before you were saved". Is this hypothetical guy saved or not? He wants to know.

Also, does the life that you lead now (as a Christian) appear to be a life that is, at least generally/mostly, lead by the Spirit and focused on Him .. e.g. Galatians 5:22-23, or are you still walking in the flesh/according to the desires of the flesh (with all of its lusts and self focus) like non-Christians typically do .. e.g. Galatians 5:19-21

Appear, generally/mostly, and typically = subjectivity
Hath everlasting life = assurance

When you sin, are you grieved/sorrowful because of your sin, and do you immediately seek the Lord's forgiveness when you do, even for the smallest of your foibles/peccadilloes

How long is "immediately"?


Examine yourselves, whether ye be [saved]. How does that work? How do you determine whether you're saved, via self-examination?

 

[Budman]

Why do you insist in adorning the grace of God with the filthy rags of your righteousness? By grace apart from works so there will be no boasting. Paul counted all his righteousness all his good deeds as dung for Christ. What does it mean to pour contempt on all our pride?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Pride is at the root of all of this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What common sense or report of God's ways is "being free from sin by the law"? Freedom from sin is only through Christ.

And accusing me over and over: blind, refusing, so dumb I don't understand, won't listen. We are not to call other Christians fools, you surpass scripture.

Are you preaching that a saved person should be disobedient? You keep hammering away at law.

I am not hammering the law, I am hammering you and those like your interpretation of the law

the law is perfect. for what it was intended to do.

it not perfect if taken out of context like your doing

you accuse me of saying a saved person should be disobedient, yet my belief JUST states no one can keep the law. That’s not the same

ypu on the other hand in declaring people can keep the law. in fact water it down. And excuse your own sinfulness by denying it and judging others

 

[Budman]

To say that person should want sin in his life after salvation is a wrong statement.

No one sins against their will. The flesh still gives us the desire to sin - the "want" to sin. Why? Because sin is pleasurable. If it weren't, even unbelievers wouldn't desire to sin.

The difference, I think, is that an unbeliever jumps into the mud-pit of sin and desires to stay there - the "pigs" in the "pearls before swine" statement. Whereas believers, walk into that mud-pit, but as the "sheep" we are, do not want to remain in it.

We still want to sin, but while in sin, we are miserable.

 

[Budman]

I am not hammering the law, I am hammering you and those like your interpretation of the law

the law is perfect. for what it was intended to do.

it not perfect if taken out of context like your doing

you accuse me of saying a saved person should be disobedient, yet my belief JUST states no one can keep the law. That’s not the same

you on the other hand in declaring people can keep the law. in fact water it down. And excuse your own sinfulness by denying it and judging others

Exactly.

NOBODY can keep the Law - not even the Jews to whom it was given: (Galatians 6:13)

The Bible also says that all who rely on observing the Law are under a CURSE (Galatians 3:10-11) because the Law is not for the righteous (1 Timothy 1:9). And who are righteous? Christians. (Romans 3:22)

If we are led by the Holy Spirit, (and only Christians are) we are not under the Law (Galatians 5:18) because Christ ABOLISHED the Law for believers (Ephesians 2:15, Romans 6:14, 7:6, 10:4, John 1:17, Galatians 2:16, 3:23-25, )

Like EG said, it's only purpose now is to make people conscious of sin. It leads people to the cross and NO FURTHER. (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:24-25)

Paul calls believers FOOLS who have the Spirit and still try obtain righteousness by observing the Law. (Galatians 3:2-3)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No one sins against their will. The flesh still gives us the desire to sin - the "want" to sin. Why? Because sin is pleasurable. If it weren't, even unbelievers wouldn't desire to sin.

The difference, I think, is that an unbeliever jumps into the mud-pit of sin and desires to stay there - the "pigs" in the "pearls before swine" statement. Whereas believers, walk into that mud-pit, but as the "sheep" we are, do not want to remain in it.

We still want to sin, but while in sin, we are miserable.

I can attest to this as can most if not all true believers

 

[tribesman]

Keeping the law = believing the gospel.

 

[Gardenias]

Oh my.......
Reading cc makes me crazy!
Will there be any saved and ready @ his coming?
This one believes this,that one believes another way.......
Thankfully Jesus @ the gathering of his bride will be the judge!

 

[Blik]

I am not hammering the law, I am hammering you and those like your interpretation of the law

the law is perfect. for what it was intended to do.

it not perfect if taken out of context like your doing

you accuse me of saying a saved person should be disobedient, yet my belief JUST states no one can keep the law. That’s not the same

ypu on the other hand in declaring people can keep the law. in fact water it down. And excuse your own sinfulness by denying it and judging others

I have never declared that people can keep the law. I object to your constant posts saying you know all about the law and others don't, yet each post includes something against obedience. Actions of obedience through Christ, not from self righteousness, are still the actions of obedience, we are not to slam and try to discourage people from letting their self do good through Christ. You constantly do this. It is almost as if you post recommendations of disobedience, and you say that is not your purpose. Then why do it?

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello again John, it's clear that we are to watch out for one another, but where does the Bible command us to be assured of "someone else's" salvation?:

Why do you ask me that?

I was replying to what you said in bold below.

This deals with how others are assured of an individual's salvation, but not how the individual is assured of his own salvation. Those 2 issues are as different as night & day.

Did I misunderstand your meaning somehow

Examine yourselves, whether ye be [saved]. How does that work? How do you determine whether you're saved, via self-examination?

I already answered those questions for you .. in Post #199.

~Deut

Matthew 7​

18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.​

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.​

20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.​

.​

 

[JohnRH]

I was replying to what you said in bold below.

Did I misunderstand your meaning somehow

I didn't say that the Bible commands us to be assured of someone else's salvation.

I already answered those questions for you .. in Post #199.

You replied but you didn't answer them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have never declared that people can keep the law. I object to your constant posts saying you know all about the law and others don't, yet each post includes something against obedience. Actions of obedience through Christ, not from self righteousness, are still the actions of obedience, we are not to slam and try to discourage people from letting their self do good through Christ. You constantly do this. It is almost as if you post recommendations of disobedience, and you say that is not your purpose. Then why do it?

The jews did exactly as your doings and Jesus himself shamed them

yu would take heed to listen,

if you think we need to obey the law, then you do not understand the will law. Period.

you should seek what WILL help yu grow in Christ and become a mature believer, not go back to what was given to lead you to him, and can NeVER make you mature in anything,

 

[notuptome]

The jews did exactly as your doings and Jesus himself shamed them

yu would take heed to listen,

if you think we need to obey the law, then you do not understand the will law. Period.

you should seek what WILL help yu grow in Christ and become a mature believer, not go back to what was given to lead you to him, and can NeVER make you mature in anything,

Correct. We grow, we are sanctified by the washing of the word of God. Formalism endeavors to look like growth when it can produce no growth in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Deuteronomy]

I didn't say that the Bible commands us to be assured of someone else's salvation.

Semantics. Where does the Bible ~command/suggest/insinuate/hint at/recommend~ that we are to be assured of someone else's salvation? (if a different verb is required to answer the question, then by all means, choose the one that suits you best)

You replied but you didn't answer them.

Of course I did. I can't help the fact that you don't like the answers that I gave you in Post #199 (answers which are perhaps best summed up in the Lord Jesus' statement, "you will know them by their fruits" .. cf Matthew 7:18-20; Galatians 5:19-24), but that is hardly the same thing as not answering them!

It's time to move on John (as this is quickly becoming a waste time .. for us both).

~Deut

Galatians 5​

19 The deeds of the flesh ~are evident~, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, ​

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, ​

21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. ​

​

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ​

23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. ​

24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

​

 

[JohnRH]

Semantics. Where does the Bible ~command/suggest/insinuate/hint at/recommend~ that we are to be assured of someone else's salvation? (if a different verb is required to answer the question, then by all means, choose the one that suits you best)

I didn't say that the Bible commands, or any other of your verbs, that we are to be assured of someone else's salvation.

I can't help the fact that you don't like the answers that I gave you in Post #199

Your reply didn't answer the questions.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

That in incorrect. The Bible makes it crystal clear that our good works do prove that we are saved. As James says, faith without works in dead.



JAMES 2: FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD


14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,


16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?


17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The Faith being spoken of in the context of James 2 is Faith regarding our service. It deals with our walk, not salvation. For Salvation, we are saved by grace through faith, without works. If we therefore did not get saved by our works, then how can we look to our works to prove that we are saved???


Regarding the question, James asks inn James 2:14, What doth It profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?

Well it depends. In terms of Salvation, the answer is YES. But in terms of Christian service, the answer to the same question is NO. To be justified before God, all we need to have is Faith. However though, to be justified before man, we must have Works with our Faith since man can only see the outside, but cannot see our heart and our inner being. Only God knows our Heart.


Therefore, the Bible teaches us that good works are a result of Walking in the Spirit. Hence, our good works are proof that we are Walking in the Spirit. But they are not proof that we are saved. Just as the entire epistle of 1 John is not evidence of salvation, but rather it is evidence that we are walking with God, walking in the Spirit and that we are having fellowship with God.

And what exactly is repentance other than genuinely TURNING FROM sins and idols and TURNING TO God and Christ for forgiveness and salvation. Indeed, the Lord Jesus Christ made it crystal clear that repentance is for the remission of sins: And [Christ] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46,47)


Christians need to be extremely careful that in their zeal to maintain salvation is by grace through faith, they do not neglect the proclamation of two things: (1) the necessity of repentance before salvation and (2) the necessity of good works after salvation. In addition to this, the necessity of Christian baptism is a commandment.



There has been far too much Easy Believism, and it is time that Christians get back to Gospel Truth.

While I certainly do believe in Repentance unto Salvation. Nevertheless though, good works after salvation are not guaranteed. The Christian has a free will and if he is going to do good works with the right motive after his salvation, then he needs to walk in the Spirit. Because if he chooses to walk after the flesh, then he will not produce a changed life. And so whether a Christian does good works or not, after salvation, he is still saved and still going to heaven. Since his salvation is not contingent upon his Service or any good works he may do or not do after he is saved.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Faith being spoken of in the context of James 2 is Faith regarding our service.

No. The faith being spoken of is saving faith. If a person claims to have saving faith, then James asks for evidence of that saving faith through good works. And rightly so. See Ephesians 2:8-10.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

No. The faith being spoken of is saving faith. If a person claims to have saving faith, then James asks for evidence of that saving faith through good works. And rightly so. See Ephesians 2:8-10.

You are wrong, sir. The faith being spoken of in James 2 pertains to SERVICE and The CHRISTIAN WALK.

NOT SALVATION.

The faith spoken of in Romans 4 is about Salvation.

 

[Deuteronomy]

...we are saved by grace through faith, without works. If we therefore did not get saved by our works, then .. how can we look to our works to prove that we are saved???

Hello ChosenbyHim, as Christians, our works (what we do/say/think) are evidence of saving faith because what we did/said/thought as unbelievers was so radically different from what we do/say/think now (as Christians). Likewise, if someone claims him/herself a believer, but nothing about them ever changes (in the direction of Christlikeness), then their "claim" of having become a believer should be considered to be nothing more than that!!

The Christian has a free will and if he is going to do good works with the right motive after his salvation, then he needs to walk in the Spirit.

God has free will, but we know that He never chooses to sin (nor will we in Heaven). Why do you think that is

..if [a Christian] chooses to walk after the flesh, then he will not produce a changed life.

If someone claims to be a Christian, but he/she continues to "walk after the flesh"/never chooses to regularly "walk in the Spirit", then his/her claim that they have become a Christian should be regarded as nothing more than that (as they are CINO).

~Deut



CINO = Christian In Name Only

 

[Blik]

No. The faith being spoken of is saving faith. If a person claims to have saving faith, then James asks for evidence of that saving faith through good works. And rightly so. See Ephesians 2:8-10.

Right on.

We are to give evidence of our faith, and also we are not to judge the evidence that others give of their faith. Instead, we are to encourage others as in Heb. 3:13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

We are also not to judge the evidence of their faith that others give, calling it legalistic or formalistic. but look for ways it is good evidence.

Phil 4:8. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.