Atonement

[calibob]

Hi Calibob, I fully understand that the doctrine that I stand in defense of comes across to most as very confusing, but my belief, in my 85 years of living, that it is as near to the doctrine that Jesus taught than any other doctrine of men that I have heard. God says that he has written it to be a mystery to most, why, I do not know. I do not consult or read other men's interpretation of the scriptures, except those on this forum, and my guide in studying is the scriptures by themselves. I believe scripture proves scripture if they all harmonize. I took a peak at your profile and noticed you live in Lawton, Oklahoma. I am a retired U S Postal letter carrier and live in Comanche, Oklahoma.

I was just trying to figure out what the point you were trying to get a was. I don't read other peoples books regarding what the bible says any more. I used to work for a televised ministry were speaker, authors and traveling evangelist would come by several times per week the ranged from Messianic Jews to Lutherans to Baptist and Pentecostal's too. And often they would contradict each other and I realized many wer preaching for the money and or to keeping the seats full and passing the plate. we seated about 2,000 per service and on Sundays we had 4 services per day + various bible studies etc. That was nearly 40 years ago.

Of course they asked for donations on the air... Between the end time profits, traveling tent show type preachers and traditional OSAS vs salvation is temporary & requires righteousness and/or works type messages. I stopped listening and reading the Bible only. If says Calvin said this, Luther said that, and Westly said the other thing. J. Vernon Magee fans and Jimmy Swaggart fans. I tend to say "Who cares?" they didn't write the Bible. That ticks almost everybody off. We are supposed to follow the Lord and read Scriptures not what other people say about them. So I Fully understand your position about studying scriptures without other peoples opinions. I'll send you a PM soon and we can discuss things in private.

BTW. I live on Gore Across the street from the country club.

 

[calibob]

We also had a 24/7 prayer, crisis & suicide prevention hot line and a battered & and/or addicted women's shelter and a Men's Christian discipleship home. But there again we had no denominational ties, doctrines or dogmas.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Limited atonement cannot be successfully refuted in the word for word explanation of John 6:38.

What Is “ limited Atonement “ I know JESUS atoned for the world and HIS sacrifice was accepted by GOD our Father .
So then HIS atonement righteously made Eternal Life reachable for whosoever will believe.

 

[Whispered]

What Is “ limited Atonement “ I know JESUS atoned for the world and HIS sacrifice was accepted by GOD our Father .
So then HIS atonement righteously made Eternal Life reachable for whosoever will believe.

Did you know there is more than one type of grace in scripture?

1. Common Grace

God loves everyone. So, there is a common grace that He gives all people whether they acknowledge Him or not. Matthew 5:45 tells us, “He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”

2. Saving Grace

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” (Eph 2:8) By His saving grace, God has paid the ransom for everyone who will receive His gift of salvation. This alone is overwhelming.

3. Sanctifying Grace

There is power in God’s grace and immediately after we are saved, it goes to work to purify or sanctify us. You play a part in your purification through obedience, but ultimately you have to count on His sanctifying grace and know that “he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion” (Philippians 1:6).

4. Provisional Grace

Through His provisional grace, God provides for all our needs. As James 1:17 says, “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights.” When you get a better job or an unexpected gift, count it as grace from God.

5. Miraculous Grace

Look at what was happening in the early church. “Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed amazing miracles and signs among the people” (Acts 6:8). Through His grace, God still does miraculous things every day. He doesn’t have to do this. He does it because He is full of grace.

6. Serving Grace

Every believer is freely given spiritual gifts to serve others and bolster their faith. 1 Peter 4:10 tells us, “Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms.” We each receive serving grace.

7. Sustaining Grace

Finally, in those times of trial and suffering, Jesus says, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness” (2 Cor 12:9). And the Bible says, “Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need” (Heb 4:16). God sustains us.

Source

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What Is “ limited Atonement “ I know JESUS atoned for the world and HIS sacrifice was accepted by GOD our Father .
So then HIS atonement righteously made Eternal Life reachable for whosoever will believe.

If you read John 6:38 correctly, you will conclude that he only died for those that his Father gave him, and it was not all mankind, because he said that he would raise them all up at the last day, without the loss of even one. Many will tell you that this verse contradicts other verses, but it does not, all other verses are explainable and harmonize. All scripture must harmonize in order to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. You can not ignore any of them.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I was just trying to figure out what the point you were trying to get a was. I don't read other peoples books regarding what the bible says any more. I used to work for a televised ministry were speaker, authors and traveling evangelist would come by several times per week the ranged from Messianic Jews to Lutherans to Baptist and Pentecostal's too. And often they would contradict each other and I realized many wer preaching for the money and or to keeping the seats full and passing the plate. we seated about 2,000 per service and on Sundays we had 4 services per day + various bible studies etc. That was nearly 40 years ago.

Of course they asked for donations on the air... Between the end time profits, traveling tent show type preachers and traditional OSAS vs salvation is temporary & requires righteousness and/or works type messages. I stopped listening and reading the Bible only. If says Calvin said this, Luther said that, and Westly said the other thing. J. Vernon Magee fans and Jimmy Swaggart fans. I tend to say "Who cares?" they didn't write the Bible. That ticks almost everybody off. We are supposed to follow the Lord and read Scriptures not what other people say about them. So I Fully understand your position about studying scriptures without other peoples opinions. I'll send you a PM soon and we can discuss things in private.

BTW. I live on Gore Across the street from the country club.

Looking forward to our discussion.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

We also had a 24/7 prayer, crisis & suicide prevention hot line and a battered & and/or addicted women's shelter and a Men's Christian discipleship home. But there again we had no denominational ties, doctrines or dogmas.

I am a deacon in the Primitive Baptist church in Snyder, Oklahoma, which is a very small group. We only meet on 1st and 3rd Sundays. I visit the church in Duncan on 2nd Sundays and the Grandfield church on 4th Sundays.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Did you know there is more than one type of grace in scripture?

1. Common Grace

God loves everyone. So, there is a common grace that He gives all people whether they acknowledge Him or not. Matthew 5:45 tells us, “He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”

2. Saving Grace

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” (Eph 2:8) By His saving grace, God has paid the ransom for everyone who will receive His gift of salvation. This alone is overwhelming.

3. Sanctifying Grace

There is power in God’s grace and immediately after we are saved, it goes to work to purify or sanctify us. You play a part in your purification through obedience, but ultimately you have to count on His sanctifying grace and know that “he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion” (Philippians 1:6).

4. Provisional Grace

Through His provisional grace, God provides for all our needs. As James 1:17 says, “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights.” When you get a better job or an unexpected gift, count it as grace from God.

5. Miraculous Grace

Look at what was happening in the early church. “Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed amazing miracles and signs among the people” (Acts 6:8). Through His grace, God still does miraculous things every day. He doesn’t have to do this. He does it because He is full of grace.

6. Serving Grace

Every believer is freely given spiritual gifts to serve others and bolster their faith. 1 Peter 4:10 tells us, “Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms.” We each receive serving grace.

7. Sustaining Grace

Finally, in those times of trial and suffering, Jesus says, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness” (2 Cor 12:9). And the Bible says, “Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need” (Heb 4:16). God sustains us.

Source

Yes,and all that grace you broke down Into segments adds up to grace and grace comes by Faith.The just shall live by faith.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

If you read John 6:38 correctly, you will conclude that he only died for those that his Father gave him, and it was not all mankind, because he said that he would raise them all up at the last day, without the loss of even one. Many will tell you that this verse contradicts other verses, but it does not, all other verses are explainable and harmonize. All scripture must harmonize in order to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. You can not ignore any of them.

You have to understand that GOD Is sovereign so then HE knew who would come to JESUS but JESUS died for the whole world and that means unlimited atonement from GOD but not everyone will accept the atonement that was provided righteously which Is what man would call limited atonement.

So then from GODs viewpoint It would be unlimited atonement but from man’s point of view It would be limited atonement which really a person that looks at the atonement as limited Is putting emphasis on themselves but the atonement Is unlimited you see GOD IS a gentleman so to speak and HE righteously gives everyone the ability to make their own choice.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You have to understand that GOD Is sovereign so then HE knew who would come to JESUS but JESUS died for the whole world and that means unlimited atonement from GOD but not everyone will accept the atonement that was provided righteously which Is what man would call limited atonement.

So then from GODs viewpoint It would be unlimited atonement but from man’s point of view It would be limited atonement which really a person that looks at the atonement as limited Is putting emphasis on themselves but the atonement Is unlimited you see GOD IS a gentleman so to speak and HE righteously gives everyone the ability to make their own choice.

John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day. Did he draw all mankind? No, because all that he will draw he will raise up at the last day.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Limited atonement can't be supported by scripture period.
Show me one scripture that says that the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross is not sufficient for all.
I go as far as to say that limited atonement may very well be blasphemy. I think it robs the value of the sacrifice of Jesus, and lays blame for the lost at the feet of God. I think it's an attempt to make God into a moral monster that would create sentient eternal beings for the purpose of tormenting them forever.
When to the contrary it is stated over And over that God is not willing that any should perish

exactly

 

[7seasrekeyed]

So you have decided to carry on a conversation from another thread by starting a new thread?
Why would someone do that?

throwing in the dirty clothes for another go round

maybe use a better detergent?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Because no one can explain John 6:38 to include all mankind. Everyone avoids explaining the particular verse and "skirts around it" without making an attempt to explain it, as you have done. They always quote other verses that they think contradicts it, but I have attempted to explain all of said such verses. I would just like for someone to take it word for word and explain it.

back it up

the following has been repeated a good number of times in this forum over time and it is this:

salvation is available as the gospel plainly states, but not all accept Christ

the Bible does not teach that everyone is going to be saved

it teaches that salvation is offered to all

somewhere there may be someone who will take your version word for word

even then, it would not follow you are right

 

[Whispered]

Yes,and all that grace you broke down Into segments adds up to grace and grace comes by Faith.The just shall live by faith.

That's right.
And faith is arrived at through knowledge and understanding.

 

[Whispered]

If you read John 6:38 correctly, you will conclude that he only died for those that his Father gave him, and it was not all mankind, because he said that he would raise them all up at the last day, without the loss of even one. Many will tell you that this verse contradicts other verses, but it does not, all other verses are explainable and harmonize. All scripture must harmonize in order to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. You can not ignore any of them.

How do you consistently ignore the actual verse 38 text and what it actually says, so as to impart your own words to it?
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Verse 38 has never ever said what you insist is there. You are adding to the scripture and we're warned as to what happens to those who dare do that.

 

[Whispered]

throwing in the dirty clothes for another go round

maybe use a better detergent?

It appears they've arrived at a decision to glorify their own ideology, which necessarily assures them they are the "elect", as their theology defines it, so as to now interpose their own beliefs throughout cherry picked scriptures they've decided can be made to affirm the righteousness of their endeavor.

The god of their design is actually the Devil.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It appears they've arrived at a decision to glorify their own ideology, which necessarily assures them they are the "elect", as their theology defines it, so as to now interpose their own beliefs throughout cherry picked scriptures they've decided can be made to affirm the righteousness of their endeavor.

The god of their design is actually the Devil.

it's another take on the famous 'we are chosen and you are of the devil' Jesus heard time and again while he walked this earth

they have their own cherry orchard it would seem

 

[Whispered]

it's another take on the famous 'we are chosen and you are of the devil' Jesus heard time and again while he walked this earth

they have their own cherry orchard it would seem

It's so obvious. All one need do is read the meaning of each of the five points of Calvinism, or Reformed Theology, which is an apt description really in that the forefathers of that ideology did indeed re-form the actual teachings of Jesus Christ, so as to realize it is crystal clear it is of the Devil and not of God.

The first factor that refutes TULIP in its entirety is the passage in God's words that tells us, God is no respecter of persons.
That would make TULIP's idea of its defined elect invalid. Because TULIP's idea of "elect" says God is exactly that. He has favorites, and He pre-selected them before He created anything at all.

The Saint Apostle Peter told us, God shows no partiality. Read the Book of Acts chapter 10
Gentiles Hear the Good News
34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Partiality, the Greek, Prosōpolēmptēs


A pastor once said that John Calvin is responsible for countless souls entering Hell. That in itself is a travesty. However, for those alive today, that they have ears let them hear. That they have eyes, let them read, the elect described by the Re-formed truth of God in Christ, are of the Devil, when God Himself tells us He is no respecter of persons! And whosoever believes in His Son shall not perish but have immortal life! SALVATION IS FREE! Not pre-assigned by force, as TULIP imparts!

The Revelation of Jesus Christ unto the Saint Apostle John during his exile on the isle of Patmos. (a Greek island in the Aegean Sea)
Chapter 22
12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,[c] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”


17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.


18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

 

[Whispered]

Because no one can explain John 6:38 to include all mankind. Everyone avoids explaining the particular verse and "skirts around it" without making an attempt to explain it, as you have done. They always quote other verses that they think contradicts it, but I have attempted to explain all of said such verses. I would just like for someone to take it word for word and explain it.

People have refuted your errant assertions ad nausea. Your point is therefore no longer valid. It never actually was and I think it is because you refuse to read the verse you fixate upon.

God's will is that ALL should come to Salvation and NONE should perish. This is the opposite of what you argue here.

The book of 2nd Peter chapter 3
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Perish - Greek, apollymi
Repentance -Strong's Greek: 3341. μετάνοια (metanoia)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people...
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9-10
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

 

[Whispered]

It's not for to worry very much about as I see it because we were given the task of sharing the Gospel with everyone can be saved. We won't know till the book of life is opened for everyone to see who is and isn't saved. As my friend Lynn used to say, "Many would be surprised to see hookers and thieves in heaven and preachers and scholars in hell." We just need to do what we are called to do. God will do the rest.

True. However, false teachers, those who promote falsehood clad in their corruption of actual scripture, if let to be believed without redress , will lead many to Hell. And we , if we do not stand against those false teachings, and teachers, are partly responsible. We will also answer for that at the judgment when the books are opened. As shall they.