At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

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You need to stop trying to prove His word wrong for the sake of your biased church doctrine and embrace the truth.

I have been sharing His word I and cited multiple passages of scripture to back up my arguments. You need to get beyond your one string banjo and consider the totality of scripture. You also need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

You had better heed the words of Jesus in John 3:18. These are His words and not mine. You need to be careful about being overconfident of your own righteousness. (Luke 18:9-14)

Your twisted rule book does not consider the totality of scripture. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

Properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine is not changing His word. Now you are playing judge and are also being a false accuser of the brethren. You are certainly NOT my judge.

I already previously told you. Here are multiple passages of scripture for you to consider. You need to see beyond your one string banjo. (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 15:3; Acts 10:43; 11 :17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Ephesians 5:26; 1 Peter 1:23)[/Q
You need to stop trying to prove His word wrong for the sake of your biased church doctrine and embrace the truth.

I have been sharing His word I and cited multiple passages of scripture to back up my arguments. You need to get beyond your one string banjo and consider the totality of scripture. You also need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

You had better heed the words of Jesus in John 3:18. These are His words and not mine. You need to be careful about being overconfident of your own righteousness. (Luke 18:9-14)

Your twisted rule book does not consider the totality of scripture. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

Properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine is not changing His word. Now you are playing judge and are also being a false accuser of the brethren. You are certainly NOT my judge.

I already previously told you. Here are multiple passages of scripture for you to consider. You need to see beyond your one string banjo. (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 15:3; Acts 10:43; 11 :17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Ephesians 5:26; 1 Peter 1:23)
No where in those verse does it tell you how to be reborn or get rid of our sins.

Do you have any idea what these people were missing as JESUS sent them to HELL?

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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No where in those verse does it tell you how to be reborn or get rid of our sins.
Are you really that blind? :oops:

Do you have any idea what these people were missing as JESUS sent them to HELL?
Yes, absolutely. (John 3:18)

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These many people were believing in/trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. Sound familiar?

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
 
May 24, 2025
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Are you really that blind? :oops:

Yes, absolutely. (John 3:18)

These many people were believing in/trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. Sound familiar?

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
So they were going to Hell for (believing in/trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone)

Can you explain what that means please.
 
Oct 12, 2017
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They were filled with the spirit of God they gave the answers and wrote the New Testament. The Bible just recorded those answers so we can hear and believe the truth
Did you ever make mistakes when you were a baby Christian that you now know was wrong?

They were baby Christians in many ways.

Look at Peter. He decided to draw lots and have a human vote to determine the replacement for Judas.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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So they were going to Hell for (believing in/trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone)

Can you explain what that means please.
Do you not understand what it means to believe in/have faith in/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 26:18 Romans 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) That would explain a lot. It means we are trusting in Him alone for salvation. What do you believe in/have faith in/trust in for salvation? The answer for me is JESUS CHRIST ALONE.
 
Oct 12, 2017
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They were filled with the spirit of God they gave the answers and wrote the New Testament. The Bible just recorded those answers so we can hear and believe the truth
You have them functioning as psychic mediums?
There were times God knew they were ready to write what they wrote.
They needed to learn the process.

Look at Peter.

He began to withdraw from eating with the gentiles after the legalists from James appeared.

Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came,
he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. " Galatians 2:11-12​


Peter made mistakes!

And, so do we.

That is why the Bible mentions their examples so we can see our need for correction when shown to be wrong.

In Christ .............
 
Apr 7, 2014
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Do you not understand what it means to believe in/have faith in/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 26:18 Romans 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) That would explain a lot. It means we are trusting in Him alone for salvation. What do you believe in/have faith in/trust in for salvation? The answer for me is JESUS CHRIST ALONE.
BELIEVE - Strongs's #4100: pisteuo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools. from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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Did you ever make mistakes when you were a baby Christian that you now know was wrong?

They were baby Christians in many ways.

Look at Peter. He decided to draw lots and have a human vote to determine the replacement for Judas.
“Look at Peter. He decided to draw lots and have a human vote to determine the replacement for Judas”

sure because he hadn’t received the Holy Ghost yet at pentocost Jesus told him to wait for it

when your saying Peter was wrong after God filled him with his spirit your saying saying Gods spirit had it wrong he was speaking by the spirit

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

…..Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:

…….This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4, 14, 16-17, 32-33, 37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when your argument relies on Peter was wrong and you are right you’ve lost me and I would suspect anyone else who believes the Bible to be true.

same with Philip the Holy Spirit was in him when he baptized people in Jesus name in water for remission of sins ……..some Christians Will trust scriptire over people explaining it’s wrong and you need to listen to them instead .
 
Oct 12, 2017
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“Look at Peter. He decided to draw lots and have a human vote to determine the replacement for Judas”

sure because he hadn’t received the Holy Ghost yet at pentocost Jesus told him to wait for it

when your saying Peter was wrong after God filled him with his spirit your saying saying Gods spirit had it wrong he was speaking by the spirit

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

…..Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:

…….This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4, 14, 16-17, 32-33, 37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when your argument relies on Peter was wrong and you are right you’ve lost me and I would suspect anyone else who believes the Bible to be true.

same with Philip the Holy Spirit was in him when he baptized people in Jesus name in water for remission of sins ……..some Christians Will trust scriptire over people explaining it’s wrong and you need to listen to them instead .
You can have the Holy Spirit not fill you and walk in the comfort of your own opinions if you have not acknowledged sin.

1 John 1:9 tells us we all need to recognize our sins, or we will not be filled with the Spirit.

In Galatians, Peter withdrew from eating with the Gentiles.
Peter at that point was post Pentecost!
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came,
he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. " Galatians 2:11-12

That is why we have so many Christian goofballs today.
Shouldn't be that way!

But?
Jesus told us many will walk on the broad and wide way that will destroy their spiritual lives.

It has got to be sound doctrine, or it is nothing.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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You have them functioning as psychic mediums?
There were times God knew they were ready to write what they wrote.
They needed to learn the process.

Look at Peter.

He began to withdraw from eating with the gentiles after the legalists from James appeared.

Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came,
he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. " Galatians 2:11-12​


Peter made mistakes!

And, so do we.

That is why the Bible mentions their examples so we can see our need for correction when shown to be wrong.

In Christ .............
“You have them functioning as psychic mediums? “

um no you apparently do that’s the first I’ve heard of “ psychic mediums “ what I said was this

“They were filled with the spirit of God they gave the answers and wrote the New Testament. The Bible just recorded those answers so we can hear and believe the truth”

i though every Christian knew that Jesus apostles were filled with the Holy Ghost at pentocost , to be his chosen witnesses to preach the gospel to all the world. I thought all Christian’s knew that all scriptire is inspired of God and written by his chosen witnesses from beginning to end ….ive never heard some of the thinggs you handful of guys say here like “Peter and Philip were wrong and I’m right “ that’s not an argument I’ve ever heard a Christian make to try to make thier point valid

Of another example is yesterday one of you explained that the book of acts is not reliable and we can’t trust it for “church doctrine “ lol because o wuoted a bunch of verses about baptism from it suddenly that book became “ not reliable doctrine “

Another told me only Paul’s letters are valid now and so I quoted this to him

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and rejects it and tells me that’s salvation. By works paul preached a different gospel …..that tonindersrsnd pauls letters you have to know how to “ divide out everything that teaches you to do something because that’s not grace of Paul’s teaching you what to believe or do your just saved by the “grace covenant “ I think was his term used ……

its impossible to discuss what the bi me says with a few of you in the Bible discussion forum 😂 there’s no verse you’ll accept if it says anything that you haven’t already explained to everyone . If it can teach you something new or different it’s just wrong somehow and you are right …..

so it becomes “ peters wrong so is Philip and I’m right you’ll never understand until you agree with me and reject the Bible “

or it becomes “ the book of the acts of the apostles and the four gospels aren’t valid doctrine for believers …..listen instead to me “

or it becomes “ James was righting to Jews only gentile faith is different “ so
James is. NOt valid doctrine “

Or that verse in 1 John that was added in and isn’t really supposed to be there and that verse in 2 John was only for a Jew they needed to abide in his doctrine lol gentiles they don’t need to thoer chosen and saved regardless of what the Bible has to say bout it “

it’s not a good use of time some of you to discuss with me and not good use of my time to discuss with some of you there is never fruit I’ve been trying for three years still can’t get acknowledgement the Bible is true and knows more than you guys do
 
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You can have the Holy Spirit not fill you and walk in the comfort of your own opinions if you have not acknowledged sin.

1 John 1:9 tells us we all need to recognize our sins, or we will not be filled with the Spirit.

In Galatians, Peter withdrew from eating with the Gentiles.
Peter at that point was post Pentecost!
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came,
he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. " Galatians 2:11-12

That is why we have so many Christian goofballs today.
Shouldn't be that way!

But?
Jesus told us many will walk on the broad and wide way that will destroy their spiritual lives.

It has got to be sound doctrine, or it is nothing.
“It has got to be sound doctrine, or it is nothing.”

yeah sound doctrine lol like “ the apostles Peter and Philip when filled with the Holy Ghost who was chosen to be his witness to the earth was wrong ! and I’m right listen to me instead “

that’s pretty sound doctrine you start with
 
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BELIEVE - Strongs's #4100: pisteuo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools. from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you trust someone teaching you important things promising salvation and are committed to them what do you do with his words in whom you trust ?

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭

“Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye ( the apostles and all those gethered with them ) are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and, being assembled together with them,( the apostles ) commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:4-5, 8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. ….But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judæa, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

…This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4, 14, 16-18, 21, 32-33, 36-39‬ ‭

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. ……But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-23, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. ( peters explaining more of this in acts 2 sermon before he commands baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins )

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”( marks summary of the acts of the apostles his chosen witnesses to the world of the gospel of salvation that remits sins and saves souls )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
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Do you not understand what it means to believe in/have faith in/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 26:18 Romans 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) That would explain a lot. It means we are trusting in Him alone for salvation. What do you believe in/have faith in/trust in for salvation? The answer for me is JESUS CHRIST ALONE.
No my answers come from HIS WORD.

Keeping HIS word in context, those scripture don't say nothing about how to be reborn.

I'm trying to figure out what do YOU think we have to do to be saved, just can't do it???

Since you can't answer that MAYBE you can answer these two simple questions.

1. Are we born in sin?

2. Will anyone in sin enter Heaven?
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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I can see how this is more Sola Scripture than the previous one.

Now it becomes a battle of man's interpretation vs. AI. It seems as if AI thus at this stage becomes one of the debaters and should be asked to compare its conclusions with the various conclusions of men and give reason why its conclusions are correct, just like we do with one another.
May I suggest that the plain reading of the text is probably better than applying an interpretation to the text.

AI reads the text as it is written, if and only if, it is restricted to the N.T. only.

You can't tell me that the historical church even got close to understanding the text.

I wonder what Jesus thinks of our behaviour through Christian history?
 
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No my answers come from HIS WORD.
After being filtered through your eisegesis.

Keeping HIS word in context, those scripture don't say nothing about how to be reborn.
So, all of these verses just went right over your head? Seriously? (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 15:3; Acts 10:43; 11 :17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Ephesians 5:26; 1 Peter 1:23)

I'm trying to figure out what do YOU think we have to do to be saved, just can't do it???
You could not figure it out from the multiple passages of scripture that I already shared with you? Allow me to simplify it for you. Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Since you can't answer that MAYBE you can answer these two simple questions.
I have answered. You just don't seem to understand.

1. Are we born in sin?
Are you asking me if we inherited a corrupted sinful nature from Adam? (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

2. Will anyone in sin enter Heaven?
No and believers have received remission of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 26:18) and have become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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I believe the above conclusions drawn by AI above to be incorrect. These verses, as with all verses, must be evaluated very closely against the full council of the whole Bible, considering the words the Bible uses (as closely as possible) in their entirety to find truth, which AI did not do. Instead, as is obvious from its conclusions, it used the superficial, immediately obvious meanings of those verses of the book of James which it restricted to themselves, and shoe-horned in an explanation to fit them– forcing a square peg into a round hole- without due regard for the doctrines stated in rest the Bible. The following contrasts the AI’s explanations above, with biblical doctrine that uses Christ as foundation as demonstrated by the whole Bible.

[Jas 2:14 KJV] 14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

2:14 - is actually teaching of what Christ achieved. It is saying that should someone claim that of themselves they have produced their own faith, then that faith also had better have works commensurate to their claim – both of which must be perfect and sufficient to bring forth salvation - that one cannot exist without the other. It was Christ alone who produced perfectly perfect faith AND perfect works thereby satisfying both requirements. Both of which become imputed to, and manifested by, those whom He saves. Otherwise, man, of himself, could never produce them sufficiently to satisfy God’s requirements, and man’s faith and works, never being able to save him - nor could man's faith independent of his works, being standalone save him. Further, the verse lacks specification about the type, amount, and frequency, which those works must occur to make a dead faith alive, or to keep a living faith alive -it lacks that crucial level of specification whereby one is notified of exactly how they can satisfy its requirements, which, if it were as AI states it, the writer would have had to include, but nevertheless did not include, meaning that it was never deemed as needed because it was never intended as AI interpreted it.

[Jas 2:17 KJV] 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:17 - This verse is saying that the true faith being spoken of, must already HAVE (“hath”) works as being integral to it for it to be a true saving faith. While we do produce works from our faith – they are a byproduct of, and from, faith - but works that come out of faith are not the works being spoken of in this verse (I think this is more easily be seen in the KJV). In the KJV, notice the "faith, if it hath not works"- by stating " if it hath not works " (“hath” in the present tense), is telling us that the works must already accompany, and present within, or as part of, the faith, not come FROM or out of faith after the fact – that the faith must already HAVE works - not produce works for salvation, yet only Christ's faith alone already has within it perfect works (along with righteousness), which, through/by His ministry, were formed from His sacrifice and offering while on this earth - they alone brought salvation. Notice that the verse does not say " if it hath not the works of faith" - which is what it should say if the intension was that works indeed from our faith are needed, but it does not say that, instead it says "faith, if it hath not works”, meaning the true faith itself must already have works. The distinction between the two is subtle, possibly hard to perceive, yet critical.

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

2:18 - confirms 2:17. The "man" in the verse is a reflection of Christ. It tells us that His faith is/was evidenced in/by His works, and anything less than one’s faith that includes perfect works, must be the equal of what Christ had achieved, otherwise, it would be insufficient for salvation and any attempt for man to achieve it if it falls short (which it will), will be judged as sin. Consider the “and I will shew thee my faith by my works” in the verse. That links the two – that faith for it to be a saving faith, must also have works worthy of bringing salvation - that faith alone (belief alone) cannot stand on its own to do so - only Christ's faith can.

[Jas 2:20-21 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

2:20 - 21. Those works were not Abraham's; they were Christ's which were imputed to Abraham, as is clearly stated in Rom 4:2:
Faith without works is a dead faith, lifeless.

Faith without works is a contradiction of Romans 8:29.

8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.

God is love and if you do not love the brethren then how can you claim to even know God?

Faith and love are linked at the hip.

You can't have one without the other.

Salvation is a gift but the fruit of the Holy Spirit is the requirement.

Holding to a form of Godliness but denying it's power sums up historical Christianity.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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“You have them functioning as psychic mediums? “

um no you apparently do that’s the first I’ve heard of “ psychic mediums “ what I said was this

“They were filled with the spirit of God they gave the answers and wrote the New Testament. The Bible just recorded those answers so we can hear and believe the truth”
The norm was they had to first experience personal growth with the Lord in their personal walk.

Paul tells us that he spent years receiving revelations from the Lord before anything else.

"I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ". Galatians 1:11-12
"I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord." 2 Corinthians 12:1:​
"Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas [Peter] and stayed with him fifteen days". Galatians 1:17-18
They did not just spew out truths as if they were a psychic medium in a trance.
Prophets had the ability to do like that sporadically, only when God called for it.


Of another example is yesterday one of you explained that the book of acts is not reliable and we can’t trust it for “church doctrine “ lol because o wuoted a bunch of verses about baptism from it suddenly that book became “ not reliable doctrine “
Acts is reliable for doctrine....

Reliable for those who matured enough to rightly divide the Word of God and be corrected.

In sections Acts can be used to show how baby Christians, while yet ignorant of doctrine, will make presumptions.
And, with those examples, it shows us that we should not be ashamed about being caught doing such a thing.


We must learn to think with the Word of God, not just spew something out that contains a keyword found in the topic of discussion.

I had to grow up.
There were times that it frightened me to realize how dumb I could be.


Keep in mind...
God only gives grace to the humble. James 4:6


The humble accept correction when shown to be in error.

Do not rebuke a scoffer, lest he hate you;
rebuke the wise and he will love you." Prov 9:8​

grace and peace....
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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“It has got to be sound doctrine, or it is nothing.”

yeah sound doctrine lol like “ the apostles Peter and Philip when filled with the Holy Ghost who was chosen to be his witness to the earth was wrong ! and I’m right listen to me instead “

that’s pretty sound doctrine you start with
Here is the problem...

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

Well?
What would you prefer to hear?
Look around long enough and you will find someone to agree and teach what you want to believe.

Onward on the upward path.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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May I suggest that the plain reading of the text is probably better than applying an interpretation to the text.

AI reads the text as it is written, if and only if, it is restricted to the N.T. only.

You can't tell me that the historical church even got close to understanding the text.

I wonder what Jesus thinks of our behaviour through Christian history?
The issue of the plain reading of the Text is that it's not always so plain. There are seeming contradictions and paradoxes, different kinds of literature, various kinds of outlining, and on and on, and the entire Text works together. I'm not seeing that AI has this all worked out.

In addition, it's probably going to take AI to work through all the combinations of grammar and make the multitude of choices necessary for a more accurate and consistent translation of the Text. I keep hearing people talk about the work of the Holy Spirit in this but if I follow this line of reasoning, then we should probably consider going back to Rome and having the Pope be the reigning Apostle telling everyone what accurate reading and meaning is and let him burn all the translations he deems wrong. IOW, God the Holy Spirit must be providing a multitude of translations and different interpretations to various groups for some purpose or something's off with our unified correct hearing.

I just had a fairly long session with ChatGPT on a topical issue. It was actually quite enjoyable and informational. It both translated a verse for me which I'm able to check and understand. Then through a number of deeper queries it was very informative on a few different ways the language could be interpreted and then how various interpretive traditions view the verse. It was simply straight forward objectivity apart from the nonsense we run into on these threads. But it never made a final choice on what's accurate, or maybe I didn't ask it to.

When I got down to focusing on one specific tradition, it was able to understand my queries that identified how one newer tradition in particular although having it's own view, ultimately does not deal with one specific important issue.

Our behavior, many or most of us maybe, is atrocious, at least when it comes to these threads. Our capacities are still limited or we just don't know how to tap into them. Historically one major doctrine, I don't recall what it is, took the church 500 years to resolve.

Something seems wrong to me, but it's His to control as He so chooses.