At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[GWH]

Yes, I believe Romans 6:3 is water baptism. The imagery is of one being “buried” ( in water) and then “raised” up out of the water to a new life. Verse 4. While in the water, we are “United” with Christ in His death (verse 5) and we are “crucified” with Him in His death ( verse 6). So that our old body of sin is removed or “done away”. We are no longer slaves of sin. Those who have “died with Christ” in baptism have been “ freed from sin” and we shall live with Him. Verse 7. It’s a beautiful picture!!

I had to look up the definitions of “by” and “ in” and I’m not sure if this is right, but what I found was “by” refers to who does the action or how it was performed. So in 1 Cor. 12:13 by the Spirit of God we were All baptized into the body of Christ. This is the same Spirit that Is talked about in Ephesians 4:4 there is one Lord, one faith, one Spirit and one baptism. I don’t mean to get off the subject here but we know the Bible speaks of at least 5 baptisms: 1) John’s Baptism, 2) baptism of fire ( hell), 3) baptism of suffering, 4) Holy Spirit baptism and 5) baptism in the name of Christ. I believe the meaning of “one” in Ephesians 4 is that there is only one that is for salvation. That’s another subject for maybe another time.

So, 1 Cor. 12:13, “In” the Spirit, my source said that “in” means “What was used to perform the action.” Or the position or “place” of it. I really don’t see much difference; I think it safe to say, the Holy Spirit is the one putting us into the body of Christ when we are baptized. That is the purpose of the action of baptism—to put us into the body of Christ. Verse 27, he says “YOU are the body of Christ, but members individually. The Spirit is the one who performs the action of actually putting us into Christ’s body. However, that happens, spiritually, it is done by the power of the Holy Spirit. . It reminds me of how the Spirit of God was involved in the creation of the world—the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.” Gen. 1:2

It’s hard for me to differentiate the Godhead when it comes to miraculous baptism. Yes, it probably is as you say,
Christ and the Spirit, but they all work together as “one” so much that it’s hard to give a definite answer.

As to your last question: Let me start out by reminding us that in the 1st century when these events in the Bible were happening, there was no written Bible. We have a new religious movement, whose leader and founder Jesus Christ has been killed, and no one knows what they are suppose to do, how to act, or even what to think. Jesus had to leave, but He left them the apostles and the Holy spirit called “the helper” to guide them. The apostles, who God filled with His Holy Spirit (Acts 2), began getting revelations from God via the Spirit and began writing these things down in “letters” to the churches; again GUIDED by the Spirit. The letters were circulated among the different congregations (Col. 4:16) to be read by all. It was some time before they had all of God’s revelation compiled into one book, the Bible. Until that time, they had to rely on spiritual gifts of prophecy, revelation, interpretation of tongues, healing, knowledge, etc. these “gifts” were important to the early church in order for them to function. But 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that they are only going to be temporary. When the “perfect” will of God, the Bible, is completed, there will no longer be any need for spiritual gifts. See 1 Corinthians. 13:8, Romans 12:2, and James 1:25. Since the Holy Spirit could not be “passed on” from person to person, when the last apostle died, and when the last person that had the gift of the Spirit died, then spiritual gifts ceased.

Miraculous baptism was used as a “Sign” that God approved. In Acts 2, it was a sign to the Jews at Pentecost that these men were from God and their message was from God. Notice what happened.The apostle began speaking in tongues and it got the attention of all the Jews. Read verses 6-12 of Acts 2. The Holy Spirit baptism was not used to SAVE anyone. It was used as a “sign” to get their attention and to prove they were from God.

Now go to Acts 10. The first time the Spirit was given to the Jews. Now, it is given to the gentiles—to prove to the Jews that God was including gentiles as recipients of the gospel. The Jews had always been God’s chosen people and gentiles had been hated by them. It took something shocking to convince them that it wasn’t going to be this way anymore. Read verses 44-46. When the H. S. fell on the gentiles, the Jews were amazed! The Holy Spirit baptism was accompanied by the speaking in tongues just like in Acts 2. The Jews who were not there at that time “contended” with Peter because he had gone into a gentile home. But when Peter told them about the gentiles receiving the baptism of the Spirit, the other Jews said, “Then God has also granted to the gentiles repentance to life.” The miraculous baptism of the Spirit on the gentiles was a “sign” to the doubtful Jews of the gentiles acceptance by God. Please notice that No where in the scriptures in either Acts 2 or Acts 10 does it ever imply in any way that miraculous baptism of the Holy Spirit saved anyone. The purpose of this baptism was not for salvation. After Cornelius and his house received the Holy Spirit, they were then COMMANDED by Peter to be”water” baptized. Verse 48. This causes me to believe that baptism in the name of Jesus is the “one “ baptism that removes our sins as Peter said in Acts 2 and is the “ one” baptism talked about in Ephesians 4:4.

Bear with me while I make one other point: Going back to Acts 8, those people in Samaria, who had believed and been baptized in verse 12, were saved when they BELIEVED and were BAPTIZED according to what Jesus says in Mark 16:16, but they did not receive the Holy Spirut until Peter and John came from Jerusalem and laid their hands on them. Verses 15-17). So there is no indication that the Holy Spirit was given to “save” anyone. It was given to impart spiritual gifts to be used by the early Christians.

I realize you may not be in agreement with me on this. That’s alright. I appreciate you reading this lengthy post and allowing me the opportunity to share what I believe the Bible teaches.

Unless Paul was schizophrenic we should believe that Eph. 4:4 and Rom. 6:3 with 1Cor. 12:13 speak of one baptism and when viewed as the NT replacement for circumcision means that harmonization is achieved by understanding WB to be the NT way of professing Christ and manifesting SB.

 

[GWH]

I believe the above conclusions drawn by AI above to be incorrect. These verses, as with all verses, must be evaluated very closely against the full council of the whole Bible, considering the words the Bible uses (as closely as possible) in their entirety to find truth, which AI did not do. Instead, as is obvious from its conclusions, it used the superficial, immediately obvious meanings of those verses of the book of James which it restricted to themselves, and shoe-horned in an explanation to fit them– forcing a square peg into a round hole- without due regard for the doctrines stated in rest the Bible. The following contrasts the AI’s explanations above, with biblical doctrine that uses Christ as foundation as demonstrated by the whole Bible.

[Jas 2:14 KJV] 14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

2:14 - is actually teaching of what Christ achieved. It is saying that should someone claim that of themselves they have produced their own faith, then that faith also had better have works commensurate to their claim – both of which must be perfect and sufficient to bring forth salvation - that one cannot exist without the other. It was Christ alone who produced perfectly perfect faith AND perfect works thereby satisfying both requirements. Both of which become imputed to, and manifested by, those whom He saves. Otherwise, man, of himself, could never produce them sufficiently to satisfy God’s requirements, and man’s faith and works, never being able to save him - nor could man's faith independent of his works, being standalone save him. Further, the verse lacks specification about the type, amount, and frequency, which those works must occur to make a dead faith alive, or to keep a living faith alive -it lacks that crucial level of specification whereby one is notified of exactly how they can satisfy its requirements, which, if it were as AI states it, the writer would have had to include, but nevertheless did not include, meaning that it was never deemed as needed because it was never intended as AI interpreted it.

[Jas 2:17 KJV] 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:17 - This verse is saying that the true faith being spoken of, must already HAVE (“hath”) works as being integral to it for it to be a true saving faith. While we do produce works from our faith – they are a byproduct of, and from, faith - but works that come out of faith are not the works being spoken of in this verse (I think this is more easily be seen in the KJV). In the KJV, notice the "faith, if it hath not works"- by stating " if it hath not works " (“hath” in the present tense), is telling us that the works must already accompany, and present within, or as part of, the faith, not come FROM or out of faith after the fact – that the faith must already HAVE works - not produce works for salvation, yet only Christ's faith alone already has within it perfect works (along with righteousness), which, through/by His ministry, were formed from His sacrifice and offering while on this earth - they alone brought salvation. Notice that the verse does not say " if it hath not the works of faith" - which is what it should say if the intension was that works indeed from our faith are needed, but it does not say that, instead it says "faith, if it hath not works”, meaning the true faith itself must already have works. The distinction between the two is subtle, possibly hard to perceive, yet critical.

[Jas 2:18 KJV] 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

2:18 - confirms 2:17. The "man" in the verse is a reflection of Christ. It tells us that His faith is/was evidenced in/by His works, and anything less than one’s faith that includes perfect works, must be the equal of what Christ had achieved, otherwise, it would be insufficient for salvation and any attempt for man to achieve it if it falls short (which it will), will be judged as sin. Consider the “and I will shew thee my faith by my works” in the verse. That links the two – that faith for it to be a saving faith, must also have works worthy of bringing salvation - that faith alone (belief alone) cannot stand on its own to do so - only Christ's faith can.

[Jas 2:20-21 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

2:20 - 21. Those works were not Abraham's; they were Christ's which were imputed to Abraham, as is clearly stated in Rom 4:2:

[Rom 4:2 KJV] 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

This also holds true for Rahab

[Jas 2:24 KJV] 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

2:24 It is evident throughout the scripture, that we can only be justified by Christ - by His faith and by His works, not ours. There is nothing within man’s power that will justify himself.

[Tit 3:6-7 KJV]
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Lastly, AI should not be perceived as a crutch to learn or interpret the gospel, as is explained by the following verses. Regardless of how AI may characterize itself, nevertheless, anyone who leans upon it for their understanding has had the answers given to them in some sense/form or another (albeit usually incorrectly) and are they who do so, are not of strong meat - given that they have not exercised their own spiritual senses/intellect, to the finding of truth. God wrote the Bible in the form that He wanted it to be read in without it having artificial, intervening, undefinable, layers of logic inserted between it and its readers. Otherwise, we would be learning/adopting AI’s understanding of doctrine and of those who wrote AI's logic which is super-imposed upon the Bible.

[Heb 5:12-14 KJV]
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Briefly we are saved by faith and genuine faith is followed by loving works.

 

[rogerg]

Briefly we are saved by faith and genuine faith is followed by loving works.

We are not saved by our faith but saved by Christ's faith - that was the point explained in the post. Did you read it?

 

[GWH]

We are not saved by our faith but saved by Christ's faith - that was the point explained in the post. Did you read it?

Will you accept saved by grace through faith?

 

[rogerg]

Will you accept saved by grace through faith?

Yes definitely, but the faith being Christ's faith, not ours - He is the Savior, we are not

 

[GWH]

Yes definitely, but the faith being Christ's faith, not ours - He is the Savior, we are not

So you reject/ignore the numerous references to the sinner’s faith in Christ being the condition of forgiveness?

 

[rogerg]

So you reject/ignore the numerous references to the sinner’s faith in Christ being the condition of forgiveness?

Yes, reject it. I do not believe that it is stated in the Bible that it is a sinner's faith in Christ is a prerequisite for forgiveness and salvation. In fact, I do not believe that anyone can have true faith in Christ UNTIL they have been saved - faith accompanies salvation -
by then, sins have been forgiven, or they wouldn't have received faith.

 

[Genez]

Can a person be reborn (Believe, repent, get baptized in JESUS name and be filled with the Holy Ghost like in Acts 4) and then go back to their old life and stay reborn?

Lie, cheat be a drunker or do anything they wish? Have a free pass!!

After we are reborn we are suppose to work for him.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

You've nerve seen a pastor fall? Or anymen?

Are you giving Satan too much credit that he will not go after those who are reborn and when he does FAIL 100% of the time?

Why did JESUS say this?

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

God will not be mocked.

Like with King Saul.... such sinners (after they are saved) will die a horrible death.

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, ​

you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin ​

does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying ​

that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin ​

that does not lead to death.​

​

1 John 5:16-17

God will not allow them to continue in sin.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions NINE different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Believing is not baptism and believing precedes baptism and we are saved the moment we believe in Him for salvation. It's just that simple.

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” *These Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

It is simple stuff unless you prefer flawed hermeneutics that creates contradictions in scripture over properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. “

yeah I’ve made the point before it says whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved , it doesn’t say anyone who believes and couldn’t get baptized is damned .

never have made the argument even once that it f a person believes truly the actual gospel and then somehow couldn’t get baptized they’re lost .

My argument is and always has been that baptism is for remission of sins in Jesus name like the Bible says

Why would you guys want to dismiss it that’s what I don’t understand

What real believer in Jesus hear Jesus say anyone who believes and is baptized shall be saved ! And then go out telling everyone why they never need to get baptized ?

What believer wouldn’t want this ?

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

why would you guys want to remove that part that’s explaining what baptism means for us ? I honestly don’t understand why would anyone want to remove this part ?

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Why remove all the effectual power of baptism for those who actuwlly believe what god sent forth for them ?

why remove the doctrine of baptism and claim it’s not necassary what is the value ?

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

can you tell me why there’s such a need in scripture to remove what being taught about baptism ? Or are we back to Paul’s not teaching about baptism ? Ot there’s some other secret and different baptism ?

 

[GWH]

Yes, reject it. I do not believe that it is stated in the Bible that it is a sinner's faith in Christ is a prerequisite for forgiveness and salvation. In fact, I do not believe that anyone can have true faith in Christ UNTIL they have been saved - faith accompanies salvation -
by then, sins have been forgiven, or they wouldn't have received faith.

Well, it just so happens that your post #132 on UGE is up for analysis on the Hermeneutics thread,
so it would be great if you join that discussion if you are interested in harmonizing the pro-TULIP and pro-MFW Scriptures.
Thanks.

 

[rogerg]

Well, it just so happens that your post #132 on UGE is up for analysis on the Hermeneutics thread,
so it would be great if you join that discussion if you are interested in harmonizing the pro-TULIP and pro-MFW Scriptures.
Thanks.

Thanks.

 

[Ouch]

I can see just fine that Jesus said BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT. Jesus did not say born of baptism and the Spirit so Jesus was not saying unless one is water baptized; he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In John 3:18, Jesus said - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (1 Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Both spiritual washing/purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God at the moment of salvation happened in Acts 10. Water baptism "followed" and signified what happened. Water baptism is the picture and not the reality.

You are confused, and this has nothing to do with disproving once saved always saved. I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose once saved always saved, which has always been a major red flag for me.

Now Paul was not telling them to get out and confess Jesus in order to stay saved. That is your eisegesis. You turn confession into a work for salvation. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confession is a confirmation of faith which is why we will be saved if we confess and is not a work for salvation that happens days or weeks later, after we believe unto righteousness, at which point we are saved. (Romans 4:5-6)

So, how can people hear without a preacher? Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17) is Paul's point.

How many times does salvation through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" have to come up with you in order for you to realize that baptism is not in the equation???? Water baptism is not the foundation of salvation.

In regard to Acts 2:41, those who gladly received his word (upon repentance/faith) were "afterwards" baptized. Acts 10:43-47 remains your Achilles heel.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Ok what does JESUS mean by water?

If he ment living water he would have said "unless a man is born of living water and the spirit you can not enter"!!

I know you don't like Acts 2:38 and in the past you told me it said something ridiculous but IT ALMOST says the same thing as John 3:5

Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

WATER AND SPIRIT!!!

Now lets look who Peter was talking to, all of those who was responsible for putting JESUS on the cross!!

What happened? THEY HEARD the same message I'M SHARING WITH YOU BUT YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN.

They OBEYED and what happen then? 3 THOUSAND SOULS WERE ADDED!!!

According to you they were reborn in Acts 2:37 BUT HIS word does NOT SAY 3 thousand souls were added UNTIL after they were baptized. No idea if they got the Holy Ghost I can't say they did, YOU can't say they didn't.

So tell if you LOVE sharing other scriptures which may not go in to detail of being baptized and speaking in tongues WHY DON'T YOU LIKE Acts 2:38-39?

FYI, Peter knew what needed to happen for people to be saved, NO way would have Peter baptized the Gentiles he wasn't even suppose to speak to them so when JESUS FILLED them with the Holy Ghost HE KNEW what to do and COMMANDED them to be baptized.

I don't need your twist on what he word says, I DON'T FOLLOW MEN or their personal views of what YOU THINK HIS WORD says.

Once saved always saved is a lie from Satan keeping you comfortable in your sins. You should get a RED FLAG thinking you can enter Heaven WITH SIN!!!

Romans 10, Paul is telling the church to get out and preach or they will lose their salvation.

Acts 4 and 5 are you just grabbing a couple of verse out of a story to make a doctrine?

 

[GWH]

Thanks.

Begin with post #471.

 

[Inquisitor]

What was your query?

Did it list resources it drew from?

Some to much of this sounds like the New Perspective on Paul.

AI was restricted to the New Testament only.

No tradition, no theology, no church bias.

 

[Kroogz]

I think the elementaries are pretty well known among the main traditions. I don't think about being in a tradition anymore.

The elementary principles of the Lord Jesus Christ Is not some tradition. And the elementaries are NOT known.

We can all believe and be saved.

And He will lose NONE.

The tradition says......We may be able to forfeit/ walk away/ lose salvation. And the majority can't even believe to be saved

The TRUTH...

He died and rose again for ALL.

He will lose NONE who have put their trust in Him.


If one thinks that salvation can be lost for any reason......They are believing tradition and not His truth.

If one thinks that some cannot believe in the Lord for their salvation.....They believe tradition and not His truth.

 

[Kroogz]

1. "Everyone who says, "The Holy Spirit taught me." I have to pass on." When you should pass on those who are not taught by the HS.

2. "Never perish is never perish." It means will live again in heaven if saved.

Ok. Then you cannot claim to be saved?

I am saved and will never perish. I have eternal life.

How do you not know that you have eternal life?

It's sad to talk with believers that don't KNOW they have LIFE.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[studier]

The elementary principles of the Lord Jesus Christ Is not some tradition. And the elementaries are NOT known.

Not what I said or meant. The elementaries (concepts, truths) of the Lord Jesus Christ (who He is and that Salvation is in Him) are known among the main [theological] traditions. You're being taught under one of those theological traditions (Free Grace Dispensationalism).

 

[Genez]

Why would you guys want to dismiss it that’s what I don’t understand What real believer in Jesus hear Jesus say anyone who believes and is baptized shall be saved ! And then go out telling everyone why they never need to get baptized ?

Because we must discern our new dispensation with its own new type of baptism.
Our baptism that is the reality, that water could only symbolize.

After Jesus was resurrected, He appeared to his disciples to teach them the following change that was to take place.

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: ​

“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you ​

have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you ​

will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5​

Peter messed up at first, having forgotten what Jesus told him. For Peter continued doing what he had done before the Church age began.
Peter, without thinking, automatically did what he had been trained to do. He ordered water baptisms.

It was only later on that Peter recalled what Jesus had told him.
Then we see no more water baptisms being commanded by Peter once Peter remembered!

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. ​

Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be ​

baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Acts 11:15-16​

See that?

Peter finally remembered Jesus words, only after commanding thousands of water baptisms!


Grace and peace!

 

[studier]

AI was restricted to the New Testament only.

No tradition, no theology, no church bias.

It's answering from the perspective of Church history, so it's compiling from traditions.

 

[Kroogz]

The elementaries (concepts, truths) of the Lord Jesus Christ (who He is and that Salvation is in Him) are known among the main [theological] traditions. You're being taught under one of those theological traditions (Free Grace Dispensationalism).

Excuse me.

So, why are the traditions having such a hard time with truth?

The Lord Jesus Christ Propitiated the Father.......Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL for salvation.

The Lord Jesus Christ will never forsake a saved individual. Eternal security.

TRUTHS in His word. Not some tradition.