Assualts Against Restrainer

[stilllearning]

PaulThomson said:
Okay. So, is the context quite clear that the revelation/uncovering of the wicked one (ἀποκαλυφθήσεται ὁ ἄνομος) is being restrained?



OK. So, the revelation/apocalypse of the wicked one is being restrained. Does the text say who is restraining the apocalypse of the wicked one?

3, Let no man (mE tis) deceive (exapatEsE you (humas) by any means (kata mEdena tropon): because (hoti) unless (ean mE) comes (elthEi) the falling away (apostasia) first (prOton), and (kai) that man of sin (ho anthrOpts tEs hamartias) be revealed (apokaluphthEi), the son of perdition (ho huios tEs apOleias);
6. And now (kai nun) ye know (oidate) the thing restraining (to katechon), for him (eis auton) to be revealed (apokaluphthEnai) in his own (en eautou) time (kairOi).
7 For the mystery (gar to mustErion) of iniquity (anomias) doth work (energeitai) already (EdE): only (monon) now (arti) [he is] the restraining one (ho katechOn), until (eOs) he becomes (genEtai) out of the midst (ek mesou)
8 And then (kai tote) that Wicked one (ho anomos) will be revealed (apokaluphthEsetai) , whom (hOn) the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Personally I find that the Holy Spirit is the one restraining. I find he has been doing so since the first prophecy of the champions of good and evil or the seeds.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We know that the seed of the woman is of course Christ. I find that the seed of Satan is the man of perdition. The battle upcoming between the champion of heaven and the champion of hell. While I find that the Holy Spirit is the one who restrains he now does so from the vantage point of the body of Christ, the temple not made with earthly hands.

Here is how I see it from a reply on a similar subject. So I will paste myself from there.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/restrainer.218234/page-2

"I believe the restrainer is the same one for the last 4000 years. The Holy Spirit. During the Tower of Babel we had the proto anti-Christ and the proto world kingdom.

Genesis 11:6-7
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech

So this is what I find is actually being restrained from the Tower to now. The rise of the man of perdition and that final kingdom, all we imagine. In the past from the the tower to the death of Christ and his return to the Father. The restraint was done in the confounding of language.

I believe that the Holy Spirit was using the languages of mankind to restrain. However, with the outpouring of the Spirit and the gift of tongues. I believe the method employed changed to the church. With the Spirit dwelling in the Temple of God, us the church and him restraining from that vantage point.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The word gates is pyle in the Greek and this is what Strong's has to say on the matter.

4439 pýlē (a feminine noun) – a large door; an entrance-gate to a city or fortress; a door-gate. 4439 /pýlē ("a door-gate") typically refers to the exit people go out, i.e. focusing on what proceeds out of it.

https://biblehub.com/greek/4439.htm

So the emphasis on the gates of hell is not a entrance but a exit. They are not able to prevail because they are being held shut. In Revelations we have verses that show what comes up from the bottomless pit.

So I believe that this what is being spoken about in 2 Thessalonians 2 concerning the restrainer and what is being restrained. We can pick up after the restraint is removed reading Revelations chapter 5 and 6. Christ taking the book and opening the first seal unleashing the anti-Christ whom he will destroy with his coming."

 

[Musicmaster]

If "the one holding back" (ho katechOn) is middle voice rather than passive voice, who would the context be identifying as "the one holding back" in 2 Thess. 2:3-8?

3, Let no man (mE tis) deceive (exapatEsE you (humas) by any means (kata mEdena tropon): because (hoti) unless (ean mE) comes (elthEi) the falling away (hE apostasia) first (prOton), and (kai) that man of sin (ho anthrOpts tEs hamartias) be revealed (apokaluphthEi), the son of perdition (ho huios tEs apOleias);
6. And now (kai nun) ye know (oidate) the thing restraining (to katechon), for him (eis auton) to be revealed (apokaluphthEnai) in his own (en eautou) time (kairOi).
7 For the mystery (gar to mustErion) of iniquity (anomias) doth work (energeitai) already (EdE): only (monon) now (arti) [he is] the restraining one (ho katechOn), until (eOs) he becomes (genEtai) out of the midst (ek mesou)
8 And then (kai tote) that Wicked one (ho anomos) will be revealed (apokaluphthEsetai) , whom (hOn) the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

There seems to be something (neuter gender) holding back the coming of the Lord; and someone (masculine gender) holding back the unveiling of the wicked one (also masculine gender).
Could it be that the wicked one is holding back (middle voice) from unveiling himself within the church, until the church has become fully leavened, when he feels he will have the maximum chance of deceiving the maximum number of people to follow him and reject the real Christ.?

I already told you that the answer is not in that particular context. What I stated to you is that Christ empowered the Church, the body of Christ, as the restrainer. Because the key term is singular, that emphasizes the body of Christ as the restrainer, without diminishing Christ Himself as the Giver of the Power granted unto His earthly body.

Look, there is no context that expressly declares the Trinity, but most of us here believe it on the basis of a systematized study of scripture. The same goes for Jesus never outright saying of Himself, "I am God." Your repeated question of context is precisely the same argumentation Muslims try to use when arguing against the divinity of Chrsit Jesus.

So, what I have stated on a Systematic Theology grounding is still valid regardless of your fixatiion on that one singular context.

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
If "the one holding back" (ho katechOn) is middle voice rather than passive voice, who would the context be identifying as "the one holding back" in 2 Thess. 2:3-8?

3, Let no man (mE tis) deceive (exapatEsE you (humas) by any means (kata mEdena tropon): because (hoti) unless (ean mE) comes (elthEi) the falling away (hE apostasia) first (prOton), and (kai) that man of sin (ho anthrOpts tEs hamartias) be revealed (apokaluphthEi), the son of perdition (ho huios tEs apOleias);
6. And now (kai nun) ye know (oidate) the thing restraining (to katechon), for him (eis auton) to be revealed (apokaluphthEnai) in his own (en eautou) time (kairOi).
7 For the mystery (gar to mustErion) of iniquity (anomias) doth work (energeitai) already (EdE): only (monon) now (arti) [he is] the restraining one (ho katechOn), until (eOs) he becomes (genEtai) out of the midst (ek mesou)
8 And then (kai tote) that Wicked one (ho anomos) will be revealed (apokaluphthEsetai) , whom (hOn) the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

There seems to be something (neuter gender) holding back the coming of the Lord; and someone (masculine gender) holding back the unveiling of the wicked one (also masculine gender).
Could it be that the wicked one is holding back (middle voice) from unveiling himself within the church, until the church has become fully leavened, when he feels he will have the maximum chance of deceiving the maximum number of people to follow him and reject the real Christ.?

I already told you that the answer is not in that particular context. What I stated to you is that Christ empowered the Church, the body of Christ, as the restrainer. Because the key term is singular, that emphasizes the body of Christ as the restrainer, without diminishing Christ Himself as the Giver of the Power granted unto His earthly body.

Look, there is no context that expressly declares the Trinity, but most of us here believe it on the basis of a systematized study of scripture. The same goes for Jesus never outright saying of Himself, "I am God." Your repeated question of context is precisely the same argumentation Muslims try to use when arguing against the divinity of Chrsit Jesus.

So, what I have stated on a Systematic Theology grounding is still valid regardless of your fixatiion on that one singular context.

MM

I see I made an error in my previous post. I was perhaps a bit tired and muddled two points in my head.

I mistakenly referred to "to katechOn" as potentially middle voice. No. It is a present indicative participle: "the one restraining/holding back". The passive which I meant to point to that could be middle voice is "will be revealed" (apokaluphthEsetai).

If the one who "will be revealed" (ho katechOn) is middle voice rather than passive voice, who would the context be identifying as "the one who "will be revealed" in v. 8? "

3, Let no man (mE tis) deceive (exapatEsE you (humas) by any means (kata mEdena tropon): because (hoti) [it won't happen] unless (ean mE) comes (elthEi) the falling away (hE apostasia, feminine) first (prOton), and (kai) that man (ho anthrOpos, masculine) of sin (tEs hamartias) be revealed (apokaluphthEi, passive subjunctive), the son (ho huios, masculine) of perdition (tEs apOleias);
6. And now (kai nun) ye know (oidate) the thing restraining (to katechon, neuter), for him (eis auton) to be revealed (apokaluphthEnai) in his own (en eautou) time (kairOi).
7 For the mystery (gar to mustErion, neuter) of iniquity (anomias) doth work (energeitai) already (EdE) [within the church?]: only (monon) now (arti) [he is] the one holding things up (ho katechOn, masculine present participle), until (eOs) he becomes (genEtai) out of the midst (ek mesou) [of the church ?]
8 And then (kai tote) that Wicked one (ho anomos, masculine) will be revealed (apokaluphthEsetai), whom (hOn, masculine) the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

There seems to be something (neuter gender) holding back the coming of the Lord vv. 3 & 6 & 7;
and someone (masculine gender) who will unveil the man of sin, the son of perdition, the antichrist (all also masculine gender) vv. 3 & 6 & 7.
And there is the wicked one who unveils himself when the man of sin becomes out of the midst [of the church] v. 8

Could it be that
1.
And the need for a falling away and the unveiling of the antichrist first is holding back the coming of the Lord v. 3
2.
And the one holding up the appearing of the Lord is the antichrist because he needs to come out of the midst of the church first to lead the apostasy. v. 3, 7
3.
The wicked one (satan) is holding back the unveiling of the man of sin/the son of perdition (the antichrist) from being unveiled within the church, until the church has become fully leavened, when satan feels he will have the maximum chance of deceiving the maximum number of people to follow him and reject the real Christ v. 8 ?

 

[Musicmaster]

PaulThomson said:
If "the one holding back" (ho katechOn) is middle voice rather than passive voice, who would the context be identifying as "the one holding back" in 2 Thess. 2:3-8?

3, Let no man (mE tis) deceive (exapatEsE you (humas) by any means (kata mEdena tropon): because (hoti) unless (ean mE) comes (elthEi) the falling away (hE apostasia) first (prOton), and (kai) that man of sin (ho anthrOpts tEs hamartias) be revealed (apokaluphthEi), the son of perdition (ho huios tEs apOleias);
6. And now (kai nun) ye know (oidate) the thing restraining (to katechon), for him (eis auton) to be revealed (apokaluphthEnai) in his own (en eautou) time (kairOi).
7 For the mystery (gar to mustErion) of iniquity (anomias) doth work (energeitai) already (EdE): only (monon) now (arti) [he is] the restraining one (ho katechOn), until (eOs) he becomes (genEtai) out of the midst (ek mesou)
8 And then (kai tote) that Wicked one (ho anomos) will be revealed (apokaluphthEsetai) , whom (hOn) the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

There seems to be something (neuter gender) holding back the coming of the Lord; and someone (masculine gender) holding back the unveiling of the wicked one (also masculine gender).
Could it be that the wicked one is holding back (middle voice) from unveiling himself within the church, until the church has become fully leavened, when he feels he will have the maximum chance of deceiving the maximum number of people to follow him and reject the real Christ.?



I see I made an error in my previous post. I was perhaps a bit tired and muddled two points in my head.

I mistakenly referred to "to katechOn" as potentially middle voice. No. It is a present indicative participle: "the one restraining/holding back". The passive which I meant to point to that could be middle voice is "will be revealed" (apokaluphthEsetai).

If the one who "will be revealed" (ho katechOn) is middle voice rather than passive voice, who would the context be identifying as "the one who "will be revealed" in v. 8? "

3, Let no man (mE tis) deceive (exapatEsE you (humas) by any means (kata mEdena tropon): because (hoti) [it won't happen] unless (ean mE) comes (elthEi) the falling away (hE apostasia, feminine) first (prOton), and (kai) that man (ho anthrOpos, masculine) of sin (tEs hamartias) be revealed (apokaluphthEi, passive subjunctive), the son (ho huios, masculine) of perdition (tEs apOleias);
6. And now (kai nun) ye know (oidate) the thing restraining (to katechon, neuter), for him (eis auton) to be revealed (apokaluphthEnai) in his own (en eautou) time (kairOi).
7 For the mystery (gar to mustErion, neuter) of iniquity (anomias) doth work (energeitai) already (EdE) [within the church?]: only (monon) now (arti) [he is] the one holding things up (ho katechOn, masculine present participle), until (eOs) he becomes (genEtai) out of the midst (ek mesou) [of the church ?]
8 And then (kai tote) that Wicked one (ho anomos, masculine) will be revealed (apokaluphthEsetai), whom (hOn, masculine) the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

There seems to be something (neuter gender) holding back the coming of the Lord vv. 3 & 6 & 7;
and someone (masculine gender) who will unveil the man of sin, the son of perdition, the antichrist (all also masculine gender) vv. 3 & 6 & 7.
And there is the wicked one who unveils himself when the man of sin becomes out of the midst [of the church] v. 8

Could it be that
1.
And the need for a falling away and the unveiling of the antichrist first is holding back the coming of the Lord v. 3
2.
And the one holding up the appearing of the Lord is the antichrist because he needs to come out of the midst of the church first to lead the apostasy. v. 3, 7
3.
The wicked one (satan) is holding back the unveiling of the man of sin/the son of perdition (the antichrist) from being unveiled within the church, until the church has become fully leavened, when satan feels he will have the maximum chance of deceiving the maximum number of people to follow him and reject the real Christ v. 8 ?

This must assume that the man of sin is holding back the revealing of himself by his own choice and power and that cannot be the case, for that assumption presumes the Lord is not in total control and preeminent over all. There wil be no signs as to the approaching rapture, except that the fulness of the Gentiles has come into being a part of His body.

In relation to the "falling away," it is interesting that all the Bibles in existence before the KJV all translated that as "depart," such as the 1599 Geneva translation, et al.

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

This must assume that the man of sin is holding back the revealing of himself by his own choice and power and that cannot be the case, for that assumption presumes the Lord is not in total control and preeminent over all. There wil be no signs as to the approaching rapture, except that the fulness of the Gentiles has come into being a part of His body.

In relation to the "falling away," it is interesting that all the Bibles in existence before the KJV all translated that as "depart," such as the 1599 Geneva translation, et al.

MM

I disagree that what I wrote must assume that the man of sin is holding back the revealing of himself by his own choice and power. That is not what I said. I said the wicked One is holding back the revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition. There is no logical reason why this cannot be the case, and God still be in control of His timetable, so that the Wicked One, Satan, reveals the Man of sin at a time of God's choosing.

You say - "There wil be no signs as to the approaching rapture, except that the fulness of the Gentiles has come into being a part of His body.." So far, this is just an assertion on your part. What evidence have you?

You say - "In relation to the "falling away," it is interesting that all the Bibles in existence before the KJV all translated that as "depart," such as the 1599 Geneva translation, et al.'

is apostasy not departing from the faith?

 

[Mem]

is apostasy not departing from the faith?

apparently, a lot of people believe its speaking to departing from the earth

 

[Omegatime]

Maybe both meaning apply

 

[PaulThomson]

apparently, a lot of people believe its speaking to departing from the earth

Whichever it is, it does not seem a slam dunk for some to assert that because earlier translations used the word "depart" in cannot mean apostasy.

 

[Mem]

Whichever it is, it does not seem a slam dunk for some to assert that because earlier translations used the word "depart" in cannot mean apostasy.

Especially considering that possibility of Jesus' promise to prepare a place for us, "so that 'where I am' there you may be also," includes the, imo, an arguable interpretation. Am I the only one that wonders if this, "where I am," is an existential claim? I'm thinking in terms of the possibilities in the sense of varying levels of existence.

 

[Musicmaster]

I disagree that what I wrote must assume that the man of sin is holding back the revealing of himself by his own choice and power. That is not what I said. I said the wicked One is holding back the revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition. There is no logical reason why this cannot be the case, and God still be in control of His timetable, so that the Wicked One, Satan, reveals the Man of sin at a time of God's choosing.

You say - "There wil be no signs as to the approaching rapture, except that the fulness of the Gentiles has come into being a part of His body.." So far, this is just an assertion on your part. What evidence have you?

You say - "In relation to the "falling away," it is interesting that all the Bibles in existence before the KJV all translated that as "depart," such as the 1599 Geneva translation, et al.'

is apostasy not departing from the faith?

Paul, we don't seem to be getting anywhere, because I never said you stated any such thing about the man of sin. I said, in essence, that your conclusion must have that as one of the premises because there isn't anything in your stated premises that would withstand scrutiny to lead to the conclusion you made.

So, perhaps we can agree to disagree since you're talking past me without regard for what I actually said.

Have a good one.

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

Paul, we don't seem to be getting anywhere, because I never said you stated any such thing about the man of sin. I said, in essence, that your conclusion must have that as one of the premises because there isn't anything in your stated premises that would withstand scrutiny to lead to the conclusion you made.

So, perhaps we can agree to disagree since you're talking past me without regard for what I actually said.

Have a good one.

MM

And I am saying that you are simly misunderstanding the post you are objecting to. My understanding of this 2 Thss. 2 passage has been evolving during this thread, because I am responding to responses by revisiting the Greek and finding other possibilities and I am learning, which means my understanding is maleable. And I have mispoken in places. But the post you are referring to is my best effort so far, and it proposes that three hinderances are mentioned, and they are not all referring to the day of Christ as the direct object.

The fact that "the falling away/departure must happen first and the man of sin, the son of perdition be revealed", which expression is represented by a neuter pronoun and participle in v, 6 is "to katechon" i.e. "the thing holding up".

The man of sin, the son of perdition is holding up the day of Christ by not himself appearing: the masculine pronoun in v, 6 "eis auton apokaluphthEnai" i.e. "for him to be revealed".

And the wIcked one, satan, is restraining the unveiling of the man of sin, until the mystery of lawlessness has fully leavened the church and the maximum earth-dwellers are rejecting the real Christ. Perhaps he is hoping for demoncratic vote by the earth's citizens that will oust Christ from the planet and leave it to him. AS Jesus said, "When the Son of Man returns, will he find fith on the earth?

I noticed the typo "demoncratic" there, but have decided to leave it as is.

Non of this implies that the son of perdition is restraining himself from appearing, since the satanic powers he needs to use to convince the world to follow him come from satan, and until satan gives him those powers, he cannot do his signs and wonders.

 

[PaulThomson]

And I am saying that you are simly misunderstanding the post you are objecting to. My understanding of this 2 Thss. 2 passage has been evolving during this thread, because I am responding to responses by revisiting the Greek and finding other possibilities and I am learning, which means my understanding is maleable. And I have mispoken in places. But the post you are referring to is my best effort so far, and it proposes that three hinderances are mentioned, and they are not all referring to the day of Christ as the direct object.

The fact that "the falling away/departure must happen first and the man of sin, the son of perdition be revealed", which expression is represented by a neuter pronoun and participle in v, 6 is "to katechon" i.e. "the thing holding up".

The man of sin, the son of perdition is holding up the day of Christ by not himself appearing: the masculine pronoun in v, 6 "eis auton apokaluphthEnai" i.e. "for him to be revealed".

And the wIcked one, satan, is restraining the unveiling of the man of sin, until the mystery of lawlessness has fully leavened the church and the maximum earth-dwellers are rejecting the real Christ. Perhaps he is hoping for demoncratic vote by the earth's citizens that will oust Christ from the planet and leave it to him. AS Jesus said, "When the Son of Man returns, will he find fith on the earth?

I noticed the typo "demoncratic" there, but have decided to leave it as is.

Non of this implies that the son of perdition is restraining himself from appearing, since the satanic powers he needs to use to convince the world to follow him come from satan, and until satan gives him those powers, he cannot do his signs and wonders.

I forgot to say.

The wicked one, satan, is represented by the pronoun in "ho katechOn" i.e, the one holding back: in v 7, and named in v.8

 

[Musicmaster]

And I am saying that you are simly misunderstanding the post you are objecting to. My understanding of this 2 Thss. 2 passage has been evolving during this thread, because I am responding to responses by revisiting the Greek and finding other possibilities and I am learning, which means my understanding is maleable. And I have mispoken in places. But the post you are referring to is my best effort so far, and it proposes that three hinderances are mentioned, and they are not all referring to the day of Christ as the direct object.

The fact that "the falling away/departure must happen first and the man of sin, the son of perdition be revealed", which expression is represented by a neuter pronoun and participle in v, 6 is "to katechon" i.e. "the thing holding up".

The man of sin, the son of perdition is holding up the day of Christ by not himself appearing: the masculine pronoun in v, 6 "eis auton apokaluphthEnai" i.e. "for him to be revealed".

And the wIcked one, satan, is restraining the unveiling of the man of sin, until the mystery of lawlessness has fully leavened the church and the maximum earth-dwellers are rejecting the real Christ. Perhaps he is hoping for demoncratic vote by the earth's citizens that will oust Christ from the planet and leave it to him. AS Jesus said, "When the Son of Man returns, will he find fith on the earth?

I noticed the typo "demoncratic" there, but have decided to leave it as is.

Non of this implies that the son of perdition is restraining himself from appearing, since the satanic powers he needs to use to convince the world to follow him come from satan, and until satan gives him those powers, he cannot do his signs and wonders.

What you're saying has led to yet another thought...the White Horseman from the first seal opened. Many say that is the "anti-christ," and yet that man on this earth is just a man, not an angelic being released. This indeed is getting interesting, with it going along avenues I had never thought to question nor investigate.

One thing we do know is that the white horseman conquers, and he does so without violence given that he was given a bow, but not one mention of arrows nor a quiver. If that is the "spirit" of anti-christ, he was already in the world in the time of Christ Jesus.

Hmm...interesting indeed.

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

What you're saying has led to yet another thought...the White Horseman from the first seal opened. Many say that is the "anti-christ," and yet that man on this earth is just a man, not an angelic being released. This indeed is getting interesting, with it going along avenues I had never thought to question nor investigate.

One thing we do know is that the white horseman conquers, and he does so without violence given that he was given a bow, but not one mention of arrows nor a quiver. If that is the "spirit" of anti-christ, he was already in the world in the time of Christ Jesus.

Hmm...interesting indeed.

MM

Well, we agree there MM. I consider the rider of the white horse to be the Holy Spirit poured out at pentecost to lead the church in battle against the devil's forces and the white horse is the saints. Two interesting texts that support this are.

Zec 10:3
Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.

Psa 45:5
Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.

Act 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

 

[Musicmaster]

Well, we agree there MM. I consider the rider of the white horse to be the Holy Spirit poured out at pentecost to lead the church in battle against the devil's forces and the white horse is the saints. Two interesting texts that support this are.

Zec 10:3
Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.

Psa 45:5
Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.

Act 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Now THAT makes no sense to me given the context and what follows, with 2/3rds of all Jews being wiped out, which is the point of Christ's return at the end of the tribulation to keep ALL of them from being wiped off the face of the planet. As an Israeli, that is very saddening to me because of how stiff-necked my people have been through the ages.

It is what it is, even though I absolutely don't see your point of view of the white horseman since the substance you provided was not consistent with systematic, hermeneutic rules for interpretation that I have ever seen.

MM

 

[Omegatime]

Now THAT makes no sense to me given the context and what follows, with 2/3rds of all Jews being wiped out, which is the point of Christ's return at the end of the tribulation to keep ALL of them from being wiped off the face of the planet. As an Israeli, that is very saddening to me because of how stiff-necked my people have been through the ages.

It is what it is, even though I absolutely don't see your point of view of the white horseman since the substance you provided was not consistent with systematic, hermeneutic rules for interpretation that I have ever seen.

MM

-------------------------------------
Well, the good news is 1/3 will repopulate the earth in all the land that was promised to the Hebrews

 

[PaulThomson]

Now THAT makes no sense to me given the context and what follows, with 2/3rds of all Jews being wiped out, which is the point of Christ's return at the end of the tribulation to keep ALL of them from being wiped off the face of the planet. As an Israeli, that is very saddening to me because of how stiff-necked my people have been through the ages.

It is what it is, even though I absolutely don't see your point of view of the white horseman since the substance you provided was not consistent with systematic, hermeneutic rules for interpretation that I have ever seen.

MM

The white horse at the end of revelation is ridden by Jesus Christ, not the Holy Spirit. The white horse with the rider of the first seal does not wipe out 1/3 of the Jews.

 

[Edify]

2 Corinthians 10:4
New American Standard Bible
for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
The church can tear down strongholds(praise the Lord!), but they cannot change God's timeline.
Therefore the Restrainer cannot be the church
Only God has the power. But which of the trinity?
The Father held all power & authority until He gave it to Jesus. Since Jesus had the authority to send the Holy Spirit to the church, then it must be the Holy Spirit who both empowers the church & holds back the Antichrist until his time.

 

[Musicmaster]

The white horse at the end of revelation is ridden by Jesus Christ, not the Holy Spirit. The white horse with the rider of the first seal does not wipe out 1/3 of the Jews.

Oh, I see. Sorry that I missed the "end" part of your earlier comment. I thought you were talking about the the same white horse as I was speaking about, which is the first seal opened that released the white horseman. The white horseman of the seal will not be Jesus. That horseman will go forth to conquer the nations, and will do so without arrows, which indicates that it will be by subterfuge, deception and political and economic intrigue, with half of the earth's entire population perishing before the second half of the tribulation, otherwise known as the "great tribulation."

There are whackos like Stephen Anderson who claim the first half is not God's wrath, as if it's somehow unthinkable that the Lord can and will pour out His wrath in differing degrees between the first half and second half. Where it's true that the greater part of His wrath will indeed be poured out in the second half, fewer people will die in that portion of the tribulation than the first half because of how much easier and more effective starvation, war, famine, pestilence, disease and other phenomenon is among a larger population.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

2 Corinthians 10:4
New American Standard Bible
for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
The church can tear down strongholds(praise the Lord!), but they cannot change God's timeline.
Therefore the Restrainer cannot be the church
Only God has the power. But which of the trinity?
The Father held all power & authority until He gave it to Jesus. Since Jesus had the authority to send the Holy Spirit to the church, then it must be the Holy Spirit who both empowers the church & holds back the Antichrist until his time.

We can certainly rationalize the things that are not explicitly stated in relation to the question at hand, but, then, it's only speculation on our part. The only entity we are told who will be removed before the man of sin can come to power is the body of Christ. It makes no sense that Holy Spirit will be removed, because the Spirit is present because of the absence of Christ Jesus in His glorified body. The Lord never explicitly spoke of the removal of Holy Spirit from this earth before, during nor after the tribulation unless that is done at the second coming of Christ.

Then you have those out there who believe Christ will rule and reign from Heaven during the Millennial Kingdom, claiming how orrational it is in their minds that He would sit here on earth for a thousand years...even though He will sit upon David's throne, which was a throne on this earth never said to have been taken to Heaven. I'm sure those people would be happy to argue the semantics of all that, but to no avail since it is neither here nor there as to from where the Lord rules. It's also doubtful that He would sit on the earthly throne drumming His fingers in boredom...

Sheesh. The superimposition so many tend to project upon a Kingdom and a Lord whom they have never seen in this life, and a world they have never experienced, it all just makes one wonder just how much positional deity they think they possess.

MM