Are you pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib?
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You do realize that "pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib" are not the only options? May I suggest that you do a little more research... if not to change your mind, at least to understand there is more to the issue than you have been taught.
I'd recommend YouTube videos on the subject of interpreting Revelation and end-times beliefs by Steve Gregg and Mike Winger. There's another name I can't recall right now.
John Wayne lol huh ?
Amy belief is simple we will be saved as Jesus the lord said we will be saved . I don’t think we’re going to avoid what he said and be saved . I’m not sure John Wayne has anything to do with it u less he also was a believer in Jesus and the only true salvstion God has ever offered
Do I entertain other ways of salvstion that go around Jesus the savior and his words ? If that makes me John Wayne well then “ pilgahrhim if ya mess with the word ya get the letters “ lol
You aren’t going to go through the great tribulation jesus was telling them about notice any specifics ?
“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
Luke 21:20-24 KJV
“Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
Matthew 23:36-38
look into what happened in Jerusalem ad 67-70
Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
Verses 4 and 5 tell us who will be included in the first resurrection.
The only way to escape the second death (the lake of fire) is to be in the first resurrection.
I will be in the first resurrection just as all the saved will be.
According to these verses, the first resurrection will be after the mark of the beast and those saints that reject the mark are killed by the man of sin.
Verses 4 and 5 tell us who will be included in the first resurrection.
The only way to escape the second death (the lake of fire) is to be in the first resurrection.
I will be in the first resurrection just as all the saved will be.
According to these verses, the first resurrection will be after the mark of the beast and those saints that reject the mark are killed by the man of sin.
So you’re going to be martyred ?
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
Revelation 20:4 KJV
If God chooses, yes.
If God chooses, I will survive.
Either way I will be in the first resurrection with all the saints.
I’d say everyone alive today is oropbably part of this testaments resurrection when Jesus returns
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: (
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
i don’t think they are part of this one that was promised by the Old Testament believers who slept and to the generation of Christ and his apostles and early disciples who became martyrs of the Roman Empire while preaching the gospel and wrote the words we now believe in the New Testament by the Will of God
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ, the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 KJV
Those are the two resurrections those who raised up with Christ those who “ slept “ and also the martyrs of the gospel who didn’t deny Christ when Rome was tormenting and slaughtering them in the first century when the revelation was written.
there’s one resurrection according to the Old Testament prophecy that culminated when Jesus came forth and then died and rose as you see those who slept rising up after he raised up
“Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept”
“the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, “
and then there’s a resurrection at the conclusion of the New Testament prophecy when Christ returns as you see also in those scriptures at the last trump when the New Testament folk are raised up
the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: (
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
We belong to Jesus so we have to believe what he and his apostles said about this stuff is my own opinion but of course that’s all it is just an opinion based on what they said
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24-27 KJV
I want to be part of what Jesus said is going to happen with his elect even if it means he’s coming back after the worlds tribulation period and we have to endure in faith until then
The 2nd, 3rd and 4th seals are the results of the coming of the man of sin. He has not yet come forth.
Hi Karton. Question for ya. How do you interpret from 1 Thes 4:14-18 that it is clear that the Christians will be caught up with Jesus BEFORE the start of the 70th week of Daniel. Also Romans 5:9 says that "...we shall be saved fromthe wrath of God through Him. These verses tell us that 1) the Believers will be raptured (but doesn't say when) and 2) that the Believers will be spared from suffering under God's wrath which begins half-way through the 7-year period, when the sixth seal is opened (Rev 6:12-17) Verse 17 testifies by those left behind that God's wrath has begun or more specifically that Their wrath (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) has come.
I hope that the rapture happens prior to the start of the 7-year tribulation period, but that's not what the Bible teaches. Believers will escape God's wrath, but not the wrath of man (controlled by the False Prophet and enemies of God) from the opening of the 1st seal until the opening of the fifth seal. This is evident from Rev 6:9-11, when John sees the martyrs under the alter in heaven who died for their faith. If this is the case and you ask, "what are we saved from?" We are saved from God's wrath. The same with 1 John 5:10 and 13,
Also, not sure how 2 Tim 2:7 and 15, and John 16:13 and 14:26 have to do with the timing of the rapture or start of the Tribulation period. These verses refer to the Lord sending His Holy Spirit to those who Believe, teaching them all things and helping the Believers know that they have eternal life.
When I first became a Christian in 1981, I too believed that the Believers would be raptured prior to the start of the 7-year Tribulation period. But, after further deeper study of God's word, it appears more likely that we will be raptured just before God's wrath is poured out on the unbelievers. Take a look at Rev 7 and 14, which goes into detail concerned the rapture and who will be included, the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel and the multitude of gentiles.
A lastly, I don't believe that anyone is saved after the rapture occurs because, then they would 1) suffer under God's wrath, and 2) they would miss out on the wedding feast in heaven and the Bema seat judgment that happens in heaven before we come down to earth with Jesus in the 2nd coming.
What are you thoughts on my view? Please support your view with Scripture and not with opinion and Church doctrine/traditions.
Blessings,
Lori
I hope that the rapture happens prior to the start of the 7-year tribulation period, but that's not what the Bible teaches. Believers will escape God's wrath, but not the wrath of man (controlled by the False Prophet and enemies of God) from the opening of the 1st seal until the opening of the fifth seal. This is evident from Rev 6:9-11, when John sees the martyrs under the alter in heaven who died for their faith. If this is the case and you ask, "what are we saved from?" We are saved from God's wrath. The same with 1 John 5:10 and 13,
Also, not sure how 2 Tim 2:7 and 15, and John 16:13 and 14:26 have to do with the timing of the rapture or start of the Tribulation period. These verses refer to the Lord sending His Holy Spirit to those who Believe, teaching them all things and helping the Believers know that they have eternal life.
When I first became a Christian in 1981, I too believed that the Believers would be raptured prior to the start of the 7-year Tribulation period. But, after further deeper study of God's word, it appears more likely that we will be raptured just before God's wrath is poured out on the unbelievers. Take a look at Rev 7 and 14, which goes into detail concerned the rapture and who will be included, the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel and the multitude of gentiles.
A lastly, I don't believe that anyone is saved after the rapture occurs because, then they would 1) suffer under God's wrath, and 2) they would miss out on the wedding feast in heaven and the Bema seat judgment that happens in heaven before we come down to earth with Jesus in the 2nd coming.
What are you thoughts on my view? Please support your view with Scripture and not with opinion and Church doctrine/traditions.
Blessings,
Lori
read the books of Ezechial & Daniel concerning the 70th week & 1st Thessalonians 4:13. you have another belief incorrect: there is 1 more chance to be saved & that is after the rapture. i never base anything on my opinion. there are Bible teachers who are pros on the rapture, seek them out. i do not get into lengthy explanations partly because my hands & fingers are big & it's a pain to type. i do appreciate your time in your posting. just on a secular & common sense level alone, think about this: why would atheists & Christians be here for the Tribulation when Christians are saved? think about that in a room for at least 20 minutes with quietness. & be truthful to yourself & honest with open mindedness.
I'm not saying that we ARE between the 3rd and 4th seal, only that we COULD BE based on current events that line up with Scripture.
For example, when the 2nd seal is opened (Rev 6:4) two events occur. The first event is that peace is taken from the entire earth. Well, COVID certainly did this. I remember checking the Johns Hopkins data every week during the start of COVID in 2020. COVID cases were tracked and report all over the world, even in the uttermost parts of the earth - even small islands. Fear permeated the entire globe. The second event says that men would slay one another with a sword given to them. Could this mean that the sword referred to is the COVID vaccine? Remember, from John's point of view, he didn't know what a hypodermic needle was. He could have seen people stabbing each other that then caused them to die suddenly. I know, it's a streath, but possible.
And then the first event that happens when the third seal is opened (Rev 6:6) famine. This has already begun all over the earth because of the wars, disruption of the food supply, destruction of farmland and food manufacturing plants. Even in America the prices on food that skyrocketed and some foods are no longer available. Worst case, just yesterday I heard that things are so bad in Haiti that they canabalism is happening.
By the time we get to the 4th seal (Rev 6:8), it says that one fourth of the earth's population will be killed. With a current world population of around 8 billion, that's 2 billion dead people. If you check the insurance actuaries and other data tracking all cause mortality, almost 1/4th of the earth's population is dead (18.8% in 2020 and 20% in 2021). Prior to 2020, all cause mortality in the world ran between 2 and 6%.
So now do you see why I believe it is possible that we COULD BE in between the 3rd and 4th seal? I pray not and that things turn around soon. But the path we are on at present does not look good. And with so many things going against us at this time, such as some the worst recorded storms, floods, fires, diseases, turbo cancers, extreme immorality, corruption at every level of government, wars, riots, etc., it doesn't look promsing that things will ever go back to "normal", at least the normal prior to COVID. What do ya think about all this?
Thank you and I agree that studying the books of Ezekiel and Daniel are important books to study, especially in relation to Revelation. I have been blessed to study these books and others along with Revelation for over 30 years, under some of the top Bible teachers here in San Diego. Peter Barnes knew more about the Bible than anyone I've ever known. He studied it from their original languages in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. I created a YouTube channel for him after he passed from the many cassette tapes I recorded from his Bible studies. You can find these on YouTube by searching to "Peter Barnes Revelation". Peter was invited by some of the top pastors in our city to teach God's Word, such as pastors David Jeremiah, Miles McPherson, Mike McIntosh, Ray Bently, and my pastor. I was blessed to study under him and be his friend along with his wife Ada. Peter and his wife are gone, but one day we will be together again. PTL!
I'm in the club of " Jesus is coming at any moment, and today may be my last day because no day is promised to anyone."
Actually the events of the fist five seals began to happen right after the book of Revelation was completed. See the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24). Many people think that all seal events are for the future but that is not so. Only those in the 6th and 7th seals.
I've not ever heard this view before. Please provide Scripture to support this view. Most Bible scholars believe that the Book of Revelation was completed in 95AD; however, others believe it was around 67AD because John does not mention the destruction of the temple in 70AD.
I call it Pre 70th week. There s a reason, so as not to confuse those who do not understand that all tie on this earth is "Tribulation" so said Jesus in John 16:33 which is why Rev. 7:9-16 confuses people a wee bit. You see God never says the Rapture is pre 70th week per se, we have to dig it out. God also never told the exact tine Jesus would be born but a few people dug it out. Jess was to be born in Bethlehem and come out of Egypt, sounds impossible, buts not of course, as we know.
The first mistake was to ask men instead of asking God in both cases. We can get men's guidance, but do not allow yourself to be bounced back and forth by other men's traditions/ideas.
There are a bunch of verses that indicate this, but we have to be well researched on the book of Revelation, and Prophecy/Revelation is my forte. You also have to understand how God uses numbers,. the old Hebrew had like 4000 words, so God used numbers to inform on many things. The number 10 equals Completion, 12 = Fulness, 8 New Beginnings, 7 = Divine Completion et al.
So, when Jesus tells John that God the Father wrote the book of Revelation and gave it to him to give to John via the Angels and Visions, that's powerful stuff. He told John to write the "Things he has seen" (Jesus in all his Eternal Glory in Rev. 1) The "Things which Are" (The Church Age where the 7 Churches equals God's Divine Completion of the Church Age on this earth thus 7 Churches) and the "Things which will be Hereafter" ( After the Church Age, or the 70th week on. after the Rapture).
In Rev. 4:1 Jesus Sounds as a Trump, the Feast of Trumps always ended the Harvest Seasons, or think Church Age where we are called to Harvest souls. Jesus tells John to come up here, and that everything after this verses is the "Hereafter or 70th week events. In Rev. 2:10 we see that God promises the Church of Smyrna crowns to those who "Overcome" in Rev. 3:5 we see that God promises White Robes to those who overcome and in Rev. 3:21 we see those who overcome will sit at God's thrones. It SHOULD BE EASY to see that Rev. 4:4 (the 24 Elders like unto the 24 Orders of the Priesthood in 1 Chronicles 24) shows us the Church in Heaven, who sit at God's throne, with White Robes and Gold Crowns on, God is screaming this is my Church, in heaven. This happens after Rev. 19 where they have not yet gotten their white robes, but before the Rev. 19 part where we all return in White horse, Rev. 19 covers the full 7 years just as Rev. 14 does.
Reading Romans chapters 9-11 in full, why do you think Paul is mentioning God CHOOSE Jacob over Esau and God HARDENED Pharaoh's heart, and God is the Potter and can chose do to whatsoever He wishes with the vessel? Because its about SERVICE UNTO God !! Thus, in Rom. 11 when Paul says God is not finished with Israel yet, he gives us the TIMELINES, he says when the Fulness of the Gentiles [SERVIVE unto God] has come full, then All Israel will repent (God means Israel as a nation or 1/3, will repent and turn back unto God like Zech. 13:8-9 tell us). So, Israel can only repent after the Church Gentiles SERVICE is over. Matt. 24:14 tells us when the Gospel has been preached unto all the World, then Jesus will come for his Church. The 70th week has nothing to do with the Church, just like there was no church for the other 69 weeks, thats why its called Jacobs troubles.
The 5th Seal Martyrs ae Gentiles, the Jews who repent are Protected. These are not those seen in Rev. 7:9-16, they are the Pre 70th week church who came out of great tribulation, not the Greatest Ever Tribulation. Those who miss the wedding call are LOCKED OUT of the wedding.
The 144,000 is a CODE for those 1/3 Jews (5 million) who repent, not Gentile Christians who come to Christ after the Rapture. As in 12 = Fulness 10 = Completeness thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 is just like the 10 Virgins represent the entire complete church. Its 5 million Jews not 144.000, just like its 5 of the 10 virgins, which will b e about 1 billion since 2 billon say they are Christians.
No one gets slain during the first half of the 70th week. The Seals are not even REAL TIME EVENTS, they are pointing towards the Trump Judgments. Thats why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 with the Trumpet Judgments, the 7th Seal looses the Scroll of Judgments. NOTICE the 6th Seal brings DARKNESS as does the Prophecy in Joel 2:31 but BOTH point to the 4th Seal Darkness.
I wouldn't consider it a mistake that I was blessed to meet and sudy under someone who knew the Scriptures so well. He always proved Scripture with other Scriptures. I learned how important that is. He was also not my only teacher. My primary teacher was the Holy Spirit. He gave me a passion to always dig deeper and verify Scripture with Scripture. My views are always based on Scripture first. I did not agree with my teachers 100% unless they could do this. I'm a retired software test engineer, so it was just in my nature and training to test things over and over until I could verify the same results. I've tested Scripture this way and if I can't verify it with other Scriptures, it just becomes my opinion. When a topic comes up and I can't verify it with Scripture, I alway prefix my statements with, "In my opinion, based on 'blah, blah, blah'."