Are we still protesting pagan holidays or did we surrender?

[Lynx]

But... But... But if we named them Petersday and Jamesday and Johnsday we would be idolizing those disciples. That's a DEFINITE no-no.

Also there are twelve disciples. We would need a twelve day week instead of a seven day one. But God rested on the seventh day so we really should have a seven day week... But which disciples do we leave out? And how do we justify leaving them out? Are you saying some are more important than others? We're all equal after all.

 

[GardenofWeeden]

But... But... But if we named them Petersday and Jamesday and Johnsday we would be idolizing those disciples. That's a DEFINITE no-no.

Also there are twelve disciples. We would need a twelve day week instead of a seven day one. But God rested on the seventh day so we really should have a seven day week... But which disciples do we leave out? And how do we justify leaving them out? Are you saying some are more important than others? We're all equal after all.

Go for 2 weeks. Six days for disciples per week, and One day per week to rest. We need to rest from all the celebrating after all.

 

[Papermonkey]

Protesting others holidays?
They pose no threat to me.

If I pick a fight with pagans influence in my life I'm going to have to pick a fight with the Gregorian calendar.

It's already Suns day. I'm off work on Moon day.
Sadly, I have to clock in by 5a.m on Tyr's day.

https://studythecalendar.com/private/topic/pagan-names-for-the-days-of-the-week-gregorian-calendar/

 

[Genipher]

That all sounds wonderful, Kaylagrl, but unfortunately, because you chose to do this on December 25th, which some long-extinct cultists in ancient times decided should be the birthday celebration of their fake deity, it's not going to impress those subscribing to the Christmas-is-pagan belief.

Also, while you're at it, don't you know that the Gregorian calendar was invented by one of the popes, who we all know heads the Catholic Church spoken against in the book of Revelation? Surely it would be far less pagan for Christians to use a previous calendar not endorsed by the whore of Babylon? It might cause us to miss appointments and get mixed up about when we are committed where, but it'll sure show those pagans that we won't stand for any of their nonsense. Also, aren't the days of the weeks all named after pagan deities? I propose that from now on, Christians instead of using the words "Monday" through to "Sunday" to describe days of the week use the names of Jesus' disciples - say Jamesday, Petersday, Philipsday, Thomasday, etc. Also remember, the Sabbath is on a Matthewsday, so anyone who goes to church on a Johnsday is a sinner. And don't even get me started on the planets...

I love how we justify celebrating something founded on pagan roots by saying we already participate in things with pagan roots. With that logic, we can "Christianize" anything.

 

[Papermonkey]

Maybe we can do ourselves a good turn by stopping this search for enemies in all things. And instead rest in the assurance of Christ as our all truth.

We're not going to change the Gregorian calendar. We're still going to refer to the days of the week by their present names.

Christmas,like Easter, is what we make them in our Christian celebrations of those days. Which disempowers pagan celebrations that fell on other dates as Yule and Ostara respectively.

All this concern for the pagans origin of whatever's next, and in the process the debate puts us at odds with one another?

Does that make sense?

Jesus warned because of our faithfulness to him we will be hated as he was hated. That for me means we have enough enemies in the world without finding a topic that puts us at odds with one another in His church.

Mark 4:39

 

[Mii]

Maybe we can do ourselves a good turn by stopping this search for enemies in all things. And instead rest in the assurance of Christ as our all truth.

We're not going to change the Gregorian calendar. We're still going to refer to the days of the week by their present names.

Christmas,like Easter, is what we make them in our Christian celebrations of those days. Which disempowers pagan celebrations that fell on other dates as Yule and Ostara respectively.

All this concern for the pagans origin of whatever's next, and in the process the debate puts us at odds with one another?

Does that make sense?

Jesus warned because of our faithfulness to him we will be hated as he was hated. That for me means we have enough enemies in the world without finding a topic that puts us at odds with one another in His church.

Mark 4:39

A refreshing perspective frankly. Kudos.

Well thought out and you appear to be on the other side of the "journey" of wading through this particular morass.

I'm not entirely through it myself and I'm not completely convinced that it's an "it is what it is" situation and "it only has power if you give it power"


"redeem the time" or even "whatever your hand finds to do, do it heartily as unto the Lord" perhaps


I do fully agree that it should not cause division or dissention (like politics).

Ruffled feathers or a tiny bit of growing pains sure.


The pagan undertones aside, it can become an idol for some people. I'm not sure it matters "what" the idol but the mere fact of idolatry.

Family time can even be that for some people and each holiday is typically centered around that (from my experience).

Christmas certainly lends itself to that.

So do other things though. Movies/TV for example.

Even sheer self-centeredness is a predicament that appears common.



I won't get into it any further since the day is almost done but I feel a tad remiss not to remark at all about it.

I want to say more but I do think it's not something to be blasé about unilaterally...

 

[Mii]

And instead rest in the assurance of Christ as our all truth.

Oh, I did want to add agreement also that leaning into (and keeping one's focus on) Jesus is business as usual regardless of the day. It's a bit more difficult for some on the 25th and things come to a head then for me personally but nothing's changed. Even focusing on the enemy and what he might or might not be doing is a defeat and like those blow up yard decorations "I" fill it up with air if I do. Definitely a trap to avoid.

Nice amount of clarity actually so I do thank God for that.

A spiritually productive and blessed Gregorian New Year to you all

 

[Papermonkey]

Oh, I did want to add agreement also that leaning into (and keeping one's focus on) Jesus is business as usual regardless of the day. It's a bit more difficult for some on the 25th and things come to a head then for me personally but nothing's changed. Even focusing on the enemy and what he might or might not be doing is a defeat and like those blow up yard decorations "I" fill it up with air if I do. Definitely a trap to avoid.

Nice amount of clarity actually so I do thank God for that.

A spiritually productive and blessed Gregorian New Year to you all

Thank you. And the same to you and yours as well.

 

[Moses_Young]

I love how we justify celebrating something founded on pagan roots by saying we already participate in things with pagan roots. With that logic, we can "Christianize" anything.

I believe we can, but not that we necessarily should. God is mightier than the world, but we can't undo history.

Do we stop eating fruit, because the eating of the forbidden fruit was the original sin? Do we stop learning other languages, because God imposed languages as a control after man's attempted rebellion at Babel? Did Paul in Athens (Acts 17) distance himself from the pagan "Unknown God"? Rather, he used this as an opportunity to preach the One True God to the pagans.

I'm sure for everything we might do, there are probably some pagans who lived before that did something similar. My point was if we stop doing all the things that have some tentative link to paganism, we wouldn't be able to do anything. We are called to be in the world, but not of the world. Rejecting anything with a potential link to paganism is likely not possible in this life.

Even some of the non-pagan things in scripture - e.g. circumcision - are spoken against for Christians in the New Testament. This isn't to say such things are bad - but what is important is the reason for why they were done. Circumcision was condemned for the Galatians because they were adding this to the gospel and thereby invalidating the Good News of Salvation - not because circumcision is inherently evil, as Paul even circumcised Timothy to assist in his preaching to the Jews.

In my view, for Western Christians to totally divorce themselves from Christmas cancels out one of the best witness opportunities of the culture. To my thinking, it is also hypocritical, if these Christians then do not also divorce themselves from all other hints of paganism in the culture, such as the use of the days of the week, the names of the planets, and even the calendar. The only logically consistent choices in my mind are accepting that we live in the world (but for us to not be of the world, and do all for the glory of God), or adopting the lifestyle of an early century monk.

1 Corinthians 10:23 - 33

23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved

 

[kaylagrl]

I believe we can, but not that we necessarily should. God is mightier than the world, but we can't undo history.

Do we stop eating fruit, because the eating of the forbidden fruit was the original sin? Do we stop learning other languages, because God imposed languages as a control after man's attempted rebellion at Babel? Did Paul in Athens (Acts 17) distance himself from the pagan "Unknown God"? Rather, he used this as an opportunity to preach the One True God to the pagans.

I'm sure for everything we might do, there are probably some pagans who lived before that did something similar. My point was if we stop doing all the things that have some tentative link to paganism, we wouldn't be able to do anything. We are called to be in the world, but not of the world. Rejecting anything with a potential link to paganism is likely not possible in this life.

Even some of the non-pagan things in scripture - e.g. circumcision - are spoken against for Christians in the New Testament. This isn't to say such things are bad - but what is important is the reason for why they were done. Circumcision was condemned for the Galatians because they were adding this to the gospel and thereby invalidating the Good News of Salvation - not because circumcision is inherently evil, as Paul even circumcised Timothy to assist in his preaching to the Jews.

In my view, for Western Christians to totally divorce themselves from Christmas cancels out one of the best witness opportunities of the culture. To my thinking, it is also hypocritical, if these Christians then do not also divorce themselves from all other hints of paganism in the culture, such as the use of the days of the week, the names of the planets, and even the calendar. The only logically consistent choices in my mind are accepting that we live in the world (but for us to not be of the world, and do all for the glory of God), or adopting the lifestyle of an early century monk.

1 Corinthians 10:23 - 33

23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved

I don't bet, but I would guess many women here have their ears pierced. I bet a lot of people have tattoos. Both come from pagans. Yet I never hear anyone speak against them. People like to pick and choose their legalism and then point at you for what they believe is wrong that you are doing. smh

 

[Mii]

Yet I never hear anyone speak against them.

Really? Tattoos rhymes with taboo!!! Jk, I digress.


There's definitely some cautions with them and examining the motivations behind it though.

Idk about "speaking out" against except in very narrow instances. Some things happen so seldom that you might not ever come across it.



I'll chime in if there's ever a thread (I've only seen one I think)


There's a fine line between standardized practices and legalism to the letter at times.

 

[kaylagrl]

Really? Tattoos rhymes with taboo!!! Jk, I digress.


There's definitely some cautions with them and examining the motivations behind it though.

Idk about "speaking out" against except in very narrow instances. Some things happen so seldom that you might not ever come across it.


.
I'll chime in if there's ever a thread (I've only seen one I think)

It's kind of just a thought. My mother is from Newfoundland, Canada. She came up in the Pentecostal movement there and there were several things that were considered what pagans or sinners did. Earrings was one, tattoos were another. You didn't go bowling, you didn't drink alcohol. You didn't wear pants to church if you were a woman and you wore a hat. Many women wore dresses and only wore them when working. Many of them still hold these beliefs. You didn't attend movies. The first movie I saw in my life was Passion of the Christ. Now that we have our own homes we don't live according to some of these rules. My mother has changed some things she grew up with. I think Christmas is the same thing. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. But please do not try and say a Christmas tree is an idol. Or twist verses to make them say something they don't. Not you in particular, I mean those who don't celebrate. Don't make it seem like it's of the devil. As I said in my last post, Christmas is one of the main times where we can reach the lost and show them Jesus.

 

[Dude653]

It's kind of just a thought. My mother is from Newfoundland, Canada. She came up in the Pentecostal movement there and there were several things that were considered what pagans or sinners did. Earrings was one, tattoos were another. You didn't go bowling, you didn't drink alcohol. You didn't wear pants to church if you were a woman and you wore a hat. Many women wore dresses and only wore them when working. Many of them still hold these beliefs. You didn't attend movies. The first movie I saw in my life was Passion of the Christ. Now that we have our own homes we don't live according to some of these rules. My mother has changed some things she grew up with. I think Christmas is the same thing. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. But please do not try and say a Christmas tree is an idol. Or twist verses to make them say something they don't. Not you in particular, I mean those who don't celebrate. Don't make it seem like it's of the devil. As I said in my last post, Christmas is one of the main times where we can reach the lost and show them Jesus.

"Cut down a tree with an ax, adorn it with shiny metals and so on and so forth".. that sounds like a Christmas tree to me
It originally represented a Sumerian god named Tammuz, same with the wreath.
I'm not telling anyone how to celebrate holidays or not celebrate holidays but people shouldn't judge others for celebrating Halloween when most of them have a pagan symbol in their living room every Christmas

 

[Papermonkey]

"Cut down a tree with an ax, adorn it with shiny metals and so on and so forth".. that sounds like a Christmas tree to me
It originally represented a Sumerian god named Tammuz, same with the wreath.
I'm not telling anyone how to celebrate holidays or not celebrate holidays but people shouldn't judge others for celebrating Halloween when most of them have a pagan symbol in their living room every Christmas

That's not true.

The Christmas tree is a celebration for Christians of the birth of Christ. And though there is no date in scripture as to the precise date, December 25th is our date of honoring Jesus' birth.
Is it near Yule? Winter's Solstice? The rebirth of the sun?

Yes.

How perfect a choice of a date for us to celebrate the birth of the son of God, the light, the Savior, of the world from the darkness.

Christians share this world with countless people of different faiths. Even those with no faith at all. Even those who abandoned God for not fitting the mold they expected him to fill. And yet, they immerse themselves in Christian community still.

Even when they take little digs at the faith, they show they can't let it go as they hope to lead others to be as disappointed in God as they are. Tragedy.

It doesn't matter what pagans do. Our faith celebration are ours. We honor God, Jesus, when we celebrate Christian holidays. They mean something to us.

Not the pagans.

 

[Mii]

It's kind of just a thought. My mother is from Newfoundland, Canada. She came up in the Pentecostal movement there and there were several things that were considered what pagans or sinners did. Earrings was one, tattoos were another. You didn't go bowling, you didn't drink alcohol. You didn't wear pants to church if you were a woman and you wore a hat. Many women wore dresses and only wore them when working. Many of them still hold these beliefs. You didn't attend movies. The first movie I saw in my life was Passion of the Christ. Now that we have our own homes we don't live according to some of these rules. My mother has changed some things she grew up with. I think Christmas is the same thing. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. But please do not try and say a Christmas tree is an idol. Or twist verses to make them say something they don't. Not you in particular, I mean those who don't celebrate. Don't make it seem like it's of the devil. As I said in my last post, Christmas is one of the main times where we can reach the lost and show them Jesus.

Super ironic because I was going to mention the pants thing and how my gma went to a church like that and did it because she felt like that was appropriate for "that" assembly even though she took issue with it. Maybe being to the Romans....a Roman sort of thing.

I just pointed that it "can" become idolatry like anything. It's just a bit more surreptitious and difficult to see when it does because #JesusBirthday and it's deeply ingrained in culture.

Interesting. Bowling does feel very "crafty" to me...same with billiards and cards so I do get people being against them. For me, it is indeed a work out your own salvation thing as I like all 3 and have a bit of talent there. I don't think they are specifically evil or anything but I still think that people with certain struggles should exercise caution. Bad company corrupts good morals also and if you make those kinds of places your hangout spot, it rubs off on you in a bad way.

I don't think extreme asceticism = crucifying the flesh but neither do I think the opposite end of the spectrum is without pitfalls. I think God knows the actual needs of our flesh and he provides provision when necessary.


Obviously it varies and probably I'm near the limit on what is even useful generally speaking but I appreciated "fleshing" out some opinions and I appreciate the reply.

*provision according to the Word of course*

 

[Dude653]

That's not true.

The Christmas tree is a celebration for Christians of the birth of Christ. And though there is no date in scripture as to the precise date, December 25th is our date of honoring Jesus' birth.
Is it near Yule? Winter's Solstice? The rebirth of the sun?

Yes.

How perfect a choice of a date for us to celebrate the birth of the son of God, the light, the Savior, of the world from the darkness.

Christians share this world with countless people of different faiths. Even those with no faith at all. Even those who abandoned God for not fitting the mold they expected him to fill. And yet, they immerse themselves in Christian community still.

Even when they take little digs at the faith, they show they can't let it go as they hope to lead others to be as disappointed in God as they are. Tragedy.

It doesn't matter what pagans do. Our faith celebration are ours. We honor God, Jesus, when we celebrate Christian holidays. They mean something to us.

Not the pagans.

You don't see Christmas mentioned anywhere in the bible. Jesus celebrated the Jewish holidays like Passover
It was the Romans who started injecting paganism into christianity. That's where we get December 25th because a lot of the pagan gods were allegedly born on December 25th
So again, I'm not telling anyone not to celebrate or to celebrate. You do what works for you but it's a little hypocritical to judge someone for celebrating Halloween when Christmas is not even biblical

 

[kaylagrl]

You don't see Christmas mentioned anywhere in the bible. Jesus celebrated the Jewish holidays like Passover
It was the Romans who started injecting paganism into christianity. That's where we get December 25th because a lot of the pagan gods were allegedly born on December 25th
So again, I'm not telling anyone not to celebrate or to celebrate. You do what works for you but it's a little hypocritical to judge someone for celebrating Halloween when Christmas is not even biblical

Ahhh Halloween is more what it represents. Witches and magic and spiritualism. You see a lot more sexualized adult costumes now. I was in Salem Mass. and there were "magic" stores on every corner. So the two really have no similarity. And I believe Halloween came from All Saints Day, which I believe is Catholic, not pagan.

 

[Dude653]

Ahhh Halloween is more what it represents. Witches and magic and spiritualism. You see a lot more sexualized adult costumes now. I was in Salem Mass. and there were "magic" stores on every corner. So the two really have no similarity. And I believe Halloween came from All Saints Day, which I believe is Catholic, not pagan.

I don't want to derail the thread but one could argue that Catholicism is pagan because none of their doctrine is biblical but yes it was the Catholics interjected All saints Day in an effort to convert pagans to Catholicism

 

[kaylagrl]

Super ironic because I was going to mention the pants thing and how my gma went to a church like that and did it because she felt like that was appropriate for "that" assembly even though she took issue with it. Maybe being to the Romans....a Roman sort of thing.

I just pointed that it "can" become idolatry like anything. It's just a bit more surreptitious and difficult to see when it does because #JesusBirthday and it's deeply ingrained in culture.

Interesting. Bowling does feel very "crafty" to me...same with billiards and cards so I do get people being against them. For me, it is indeed a work out your own salvation thing as I like all 3 and have a bit of talent there. I don't think they are specifically evil or anything but I still think that people with certain struggles should exercise caution. Bad company corrupts good morals also and if you make those kinds of places your hangout spot, it rubs off on you in a bad way.

I don't think extreme asceticism = crucifying the flesh but neither do I think the opposite end of the spectrum is without pitfalls. I think God knows the actual needs of our flesh and he provides provision when necessary.


Obviously it varies and probably I'm near the limit on what is even useful generally speaking but I appreciated "fleshing" out some opinions and I appreciate the reply.

*provision according to the Word of course*

My parents never did the Santa thing with us. We always knew it was Jesus birthday. And I advocate for Christmas on that basis. It's harder for a child to understand the cross and Easter. But they can understand the baby Jesus and put on plays that bring parents in to hear a message, like the one I posted from my church, that they would not otherwise hear.

Secondly the world recognizes Christmas as a Christian celebration. They don't relate it to the pagan one. They very much relate it to the church and that is why they have tried to stop the Merry Christmas greeting to change it to "Happy Holidays" which I point out to people is actually "holy days" abbreviated. So that is another I stand with and not against Christmas.

 

[kaylagrl]

I don't want to derail the thread but one could argue that Catholicism is pagan because none of their doctrine is biblical but yes it was the Catholics interjected All saints Day in an effort to convert pagans to Catholicism

I wouldn't say none, they started on the right path then derailed like a thread in the BDF. And I don't think they would be considered pagan in the meaning that we intend it here.