Are the trumpets and vials chronological in Revelation?
- Thread starter Komentaja
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The resurrection and rapture happen at the second coming.
You are confused. The change is not the rapture. The change is changing a body from mortal to immortal, no movement involved. The rapture is moving someone (a group of people) from one place to another. The author in the above passage is discussing how people become immortal. The dead are resurrected to immortality, the living are changed into immortality. The rapture or moving of those people is not mentioned there.
You are confused. The change is not the rapture. The change is changing a body from mortal to immortal, no movement involved. The rapture is moving someone (a group of people) from one place to another. The author in the above passage is discussing how people become immortal. The dead are resurrected to immortality, the living are changed into immortality. The rapture or moving of those people is not mentioned there.
Yes. Compare to:
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Here is clearly states God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.
Another reason why the bowls/vials are part of the 7th trump:
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
We see these same things when the last one is poured:
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
The exact same things and both ending with a great hail storm:
Rev 11 7th trump "there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail"
Rev 16 "there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake" "a great hail out of heaven"
Same exact things because it's the same time frame. Keep in mind Revelation is not chronological in nature. It jumps around and re-visits the same time frame like here.
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Not to mention the plagues are last, coinciding with the last trump.
The vials are actually poured out in the time frame of these verses.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 *And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
Here is the same timing of those verses:
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Rev 11:19 *And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Here we see the temple opened in both passages and both speaking of the wrath of God. 7th trump: and thy wrath is come Rev 15: vials full of the wrath of God. Same timeframe.
Jesus wants to return with his saints but the saints alive on the Earth are scattered all over the Earth so a rapture is needed to bring them all from where ever each person is to one central location in the clouds so they can as a group follow Christ downward to the Earth. This is why the rapture is also called a "gathering".
2Th_2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Green is the second coming and red is the rapture which is known as a gathering.
2Th_2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Green is the second coming and red is the rapture which is known as a gathering.
But the word is utilized over and over again, I will list a few scriptures, are you telling me every scripture below means rapture, because the usage of certain words has been translated harpazo, certainly not.
John 6:15
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. KJV
John 10:12
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. KJV
John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. KJV
John 10:29
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. KJV
Greek word #726 harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications): KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Below some occurrences in the King James Bible of the English term "caught up":
2 Corinthians 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. KJV
2 Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. KJV
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV
Revelation 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. KJV
caught up: Greek word #726 harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications): KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Now, that is only a list of the English term "caught up" in the Bible; however, that term is the translation of the Greek word harpazo, which was not always translated to the simple two English words "caught up," Therefore, for a complete listing of the usage of this underlying Greek word, we must use an Englishman's Concordance. Thus, with that reference volume we see the below complete list. Below are some occurrence of the Greek word harpazo in the Greek manuscript underlying the King James Bible (the Textus Receptus).
Matthew 11:12
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. KJV
Matthew 13:19
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. KJV
John 6:15
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. KJV
John 10:12
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. KJV
John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. KJV
John 10:29
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. KJV
Acts 8:39
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. KJV
Acts 23:10
10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle. KJV
2 Corinthians 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. KJV
2 Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. KJV
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV
Jude 23
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. KJV
Revelation 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. KJV
John 6:15
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. KJV
John 10:12
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. KJV
John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. KJV
John 10:29
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. KJV
Greek word #726 harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications): KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Below some occurrences in the King James Bible of the English term "caught up":
2 Corinthians 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. KJV2 Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. KJV
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV
Revelation 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. KJV
caught up: Greek word #726 harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications): KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Now, that is only a list of the English term "caught up" in the Bible; however, that term is the translation of the Greek word harpazo, which was not always translated to the simple two English words "caught up," Therefore, for a complete listing of the usage of this underlying Greek word, we must use an Englishman's Concordance. Thus, with that reference volume we see the below complete list. Below are some occurrence of the Greek word harpazo in the Greek manuscript underlying the King James Bible (the Textus Receptus).
Matthew 11:12
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. KJV
Matthew 13:19
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. KJV
John 6:15
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. KJV
John 10:12
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. KJV
John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. KJV
John 10:29
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. KJV
Acts 8:39
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. KJV
Acts 23:10
10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle. KJV
2 Corinthians 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. KJV2 Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. KJV
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV
Jude 23
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. KJV
Revelation 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. KJV
^ @Truthnightmare ,
Many versions of Jude 1:23 (for example) have it as, "snatching them out of / from the fire"
-- https://biblehub.com/jude/1-23.htm
-- https://biblehub.com/parallel/jude/1-23.htm
Quoting from BlueLetterBible, as to the word's usage, it says,
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g726/kjv/tr/0-1/
So... "snatch" is a legit use of the word.
Many versions of Jude 1:23 (for example) have it as, "snatching them out of / from the fire"
-- https://biblehub.com/jude/1-23.htm
-- https://biblehub.com/parallel/jude/1-23.htm
Quoting from BlueLetterBible, as to the word's usage, it says,
- to seize, carry off by force
- to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
- to snatch out or away
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g726/kjv/tr/0-1/
So... "snatch" is a legit use of the word.
So? No one denies that. "coming" is used many times but that doesn't mean there are multiple second comings of Jesus.
"the rapture" is different from other raptures or uses of Harpazo. Paul said a group of living people would be caught up, which is rapture in the Greek. So, a rapture at the second coming does happen.
It is a Pretrib rapture that is unscriptural, not a rapture at a different time. You sound like an SC student. They tend to make the same exact mistake regarding the rapture.
Yes, but the notion of a rapture is to be caught up in a cloud in the air, by usage of harpazo.
John 6:15
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. KJV
The phrase “take him” is rendered “seize”
Seize is translated as “harpazo” or rapture.
So according to your logic… These people were coming to rapture Jesus. They were going to take Jesus in a cloud in the air.
John 6:15
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. KJV
The phrase “take him” is rendered “seize”
Seize is translated as “harpazo” or rapture.
So according to your logic… These people were coming to rapture Jesus. They were going to take Jesus in a cloud in the air.
@Truthnightmare ,
No, by my logic ( ), CONTEXT determines WHERE and TO WHAT END the word "G726" applies, in any given passage where it's used.
Most ppl look at 1Th4:13-17 (and see "G726" there, and the words "air" and clouds" and think, "that's that! and nothing else!" TaDa! well, except they inject the idea: "then back down again right away, of course! don't wanna get woozy and all, ya know!!" ) while completely ignoring what it said just several verses earlier (SAME CONTEXT!), in 1Th3:13 (hint: location, location, location! lol)
Many ppl have no idea what the PURPOSE / PURPOSES of "our Rapture" IS.
Paul refers to "our Rapture" (using various words and phrases) something like 8-9 times in his two epistles to the Thessalonians!! (not just in 1Th4:17, the well-known verse)
No, by my logic (
), CONTEXT determines WHERE and TO WHAT END the word "G726" applies, in any given passage where it's used.Most ppl look at 1Th4:13-17 (and see "G726" there, and the words "air" and clouds" and think, "that's that! and nothing else!" TaDa! well, except they inject the idea: "then back down again right away, of course! don't wanna get woozy and all, ya know!!"
) while completely ignoring what it said just several verses earlier (SAME CONTEXT!), in 1Th3:13 (hint: location, location, location! lol)Many ppl have no idea what the PURPOSE / PURPOSES of "our Rapture" IS.
Paul refers to "our Rapture" (using various words and phrases) something like 8-9 times in his two epistles to the Thessalonians!! (not just in 1Th4:17, the well-known verse)
^ @Truthnightmare ,
"WE shall not ALL sleep, but WE ALL shall be changed"
The "WE" defines the "who" that this text pertains to.
[same way that "THIS mortal" (see also 2Cor5:1-4) and "THIS corruptible" (i.e. "the dead in Christ") specifies just who! Not 100% of all humanity of all times! Note: Paul is addressing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and no one else, in this text]
"WE shall not ALL sleep, but WE ALL shall be changed"
The "WE" defines the "who" that this text pertains to.
[same way that "THIS mortal" (see also 2Cor5:1-4) and "THIS corruptible" (i.e. "the dead in Christ") specifies just who! Not 100% of all humanity of all times! Note: Paul is addressing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and no one else, in this text]
Rev 13 says 42 months.
Sure it makes sense. Jesus wants them to come with him, in fact they will be behind him. How do you suppose that should be done when it begins with these people spread out all over the world? How would you think they should end up with Jesus as part of his following army?
Like how Job was not escorted away from the wrath coming to Sodom?
You don't know that is before the 7th trump and the rapture happens AFTER the 7th trump? There rapture of the two prophets is not "The Rapture" which is of those who survived the GT ie: were not killed and resurrected. The raptured saints are changed into immortals without having died.
All are changed but not in the same process. Only the living change while still being alive and only they are raptured to join Christ and his second coming army.
That's another SC type belief. It's wrong. Not all mortals are changed into immortals. The unsaved remain mortals and unchanged. If the unsaved are immortals, they could not die the second death.
Sure it makes sense. Jesus wants them to come with him, in fact they will be behind him. How do you suppose that should be done when it begins with these people spread out all over the world? How would you think they should end up with Jesus as part of his following army?
Like how Job was not escorted away from the wrath coming to Sodom?
You don't know that is before the 7th trump and the rapture happens AFTER the 7th trump? There rapture of the two prophets is not "The Rapture" which is of those who survived the GT ie: were not killed and resurrected. The raptured saints are changed into immortals without having died.
All are changed but not in the same process. Only the living change while still being alive and only they are raptured to join Christ and his second coming army.
That's another SC type belief. It's wrong. Not all mortals are changed into immortals. The unsaved remain mortals and unchanged. If the unsaved are immortals, they could not die the second death.
It seems to me that Neh6 means, "in the sight of all dwelling on the earth at the time of His Second Coming in Rev19," i.e. when "EVERY EYE shall SEE Him"; also spoken of in 2Th2:8b "the MANIFESTATION of the presence / parousia of Him"; and in 1Tim6:15 "which in His times HE SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST], Who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (see Rev17:14, 19:16--"2nd Coming" verses); and in Col3:4 "When Christ who is our life SHALL APPEAR, then shall ye also APPEAR WITH HIM in glory."
(We return WITH Him, at that point in the chronology [Rev19]; whereas the "still-living" of the Trib saints will be present on the earth, at that time... so this usage of the word "APPEAR" refers to, appearing to those on the earth at that point [saved and unsaved persons].)
(We return WITH Him, at that point in the chronology [Rev19]; whereas the "still-living" of the Trib saints will be present on the earth, at that time... so this usage of the word "APPEAR" refers to, appearing to those on the earth at that point [saved and unsaved persons].)
What everyone is missing is the timetable for the Lord's rapture/resurrection is not the same as the time set for the antichrist. The 7th Trump is not part of the vial or bowl judgements. The Day of the Lord begins at the first vial or bowel judgement as well as the resurrection, This all happens during the reaping in Rev. 14
-
1
- Show all
Tr ue. At least seven years before any judgments. But with the caveat that (a) He comes momentarily (b) He comes "in the air" and (c) He come for His Bride. But Christ does not return to earth at the Resurrection/Rapture as per 1 Thess 4. However, He does come to earth at the Second Coming.
-
1
-
1
- Show all