Apostasy 101

[mailmandan]

The ONCE FOR ALL TIME means this: That it does not need to be offered daily, weekly, monthly, annually, ever again - in TERMS OF THE SACRIFICE. Jesus' one sacrifice was sufficient for all time.

Here it refers to this below:

Hebrews 10
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.

We all know that Christ offered one sacrifice for sins forever, which does not change the fact that Hebrews 10:10 clearly states ..WE have been SANCTIFIED through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL and Hebrews 10:14 clearly states For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED.

 

[Chris1975]

We all know that Christ offered one sacrifice for sins forever, which does not change the fact that Hebrews 10:10 clearly states ..WE have been SANCTIFIED through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL and Hebrews 10:14 clearly states For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED.

No. The once for all means the following:
- it only had to be offered once. Jesus does not need to go to the cross again and again
- it covers the entire spectrum of believers including those who would come 2000 years later
- it covers all sin (and by this all sin REPENTED of)
- unrepentance is not covered.

Romans 2
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

 

[mailmandan]

No, I understand there is fake belief, or belief in something other than Christ, and belief in mere facts.
But Christ said the seed in the believing soil of the 2nd type of soil was planted and sprang up.
The problem was not that it wasn't planted and growing.
The problem was it was not well rooted.
(Haven't you ever used the expression 'no root' when you mean it wasn't well rooted?)

In unbelieving soil the seed is snatched away (soil #1).
It does not get planted and spring up in unbeliever's soil as you are insisting.

The plant sprang up, yet no fruit sprang up. There was movement towards reaching it's desired goal, yet the plant was scorched and withered away instead of being firmly rooted and established, which explains why there was no fruit. Faith without works is dead, remember? Whether no root (which numerous translation state) or not well rooted, regardless, the end result is the same. Not firmly rooted and established from the start, which does not represent saving belief. The heart of the unbelievers soil is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel (emotional response, shallow, temporary belief) without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

 

[Chris1975]

The plant sprang up, yet no fruit sprang up. There was movement towards reaching it's desired goal, yet the plant was scorched and withered away instead of being firmly rooted and established, which explains why there was no fruit. Faith without works is dead, remember? Whether no root (which numerous translation state) or not well rooted, regardless, the end result is the same. Not firmly rooted and established from the start, which does not represent saving belief. The heart of the unbelievers soil is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel (emotional response, shallow, temporary belief) without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

How did the plant spring up without God providing the growth?

1 Corinthians 3
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

But the only way for fruit to appear is if the believer abides, and the only way a believer abides, is if they are obedient, and they are only obedient if they love God.

This is the Holy ordering. No fruit if any link in this chain breaks.

 

[mailmandan]

Why not?
Were you born again with type 4 soil?
I wasn't, and I can assure you I've been a serious, devout, Spirit filled, saved believer since January 28th, 1986. But according to you, if you're not soil #4 you aren't saved. You're only a fake believer who has never really believed.

I don't think you realize how you condemn yourself as not being born again by insisting that only the 4th type of soil is the true believer. My personal observation is, myself along with the church, spend most of our time in the 3rd type of soil. Just when I think I've arrived at the 4th type of soil--BOOM--I don't spend very much time there before something comes along to whittle me down to size.....again. But, like the analogy of the Navy Seal, I will make it safely to the Day of Christ if I keep believing in Christ and don't give up. I WILL make it.....if I keep believing. That's God's promise for the believer who doesn't give up.

ONLY the 4th soil produced a crop of various sizes and persevered. So you were born again and produced no fruit? How do I condemn myself? So the word is choked out before reaching it's desired goal and not fruit was produced, but the person was saved anyway? Yeah right. You are absolutely obsessed with believing that you will be saved because you somehow managed to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep believing. (self preservation over God's preservation) So Christ merely "initially" saved you, BUT it's a good thing you helped keep yourself saved by forcing yourself to keep believing, as if it's all about YOU. What about God's preservation? (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1;1)

 

[mailmandan]

How did the plant spring up without God providing the growth?

1 Corinthians 3
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

But the only way for fruit to appear is if the believer abides, and the only way a believer abides, is if they are obedient, and they are only obedient if they love God.

This is the Holy ordering. No fruit if any link in this chain breaks.

God draws, yet the plant fell short of it's desired goal. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It can't and it doesn't.

 

[Chris1975]

ONLY the 4th soil produced a crop of various sizes and persevered. So you were born again and produced no fruit? How do I condemn myself? So the word is choked out before reaching it's desired goal and not fruit was produced, but the person was saved anyway? Yeah right. You are absolutely obsessed with believing that you will be saved because you somehow managed to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep believing. (self preservation over God's preservation) So Christ merely "initially" saved you, BUT it's a good thing you helped keep yourself saved by forcing yourself to keep believing, as if it's all about YOU. What about God's preservation? (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1;1)

Many branches were connected to the vine (all gentiles who believed were grafted in). You must know that you can NEVER be grafted in as an unbeliever. Then those branches which do not bear fruit are cut off and thrown in the fire.

The two parables confirm one another (sower and the vine).

 

[Chris1975]

God draws, yet the plant fell short of it's desired goal. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It can't and it doesn't.

See post 327

 

[Chris1975]

Many branches were connected to the vine (all gentiles who believed were grafted in). You must know that you can NEVER be grafted in as an unbeliever. Then those branches which do not bear fruit are cut off and thrown in the fire.

The two parables confirm one another (sower and the vine).

And how did this come about, that they were cut off? Back to the Holy ordering.....they didn't love God. They might have believed, but they never loved Him.

 

[mailmandan]

Did you forget? We've been through this.
I will show you when you show me the words, "you can't lose your salvation".

I don't need the specific words, "can't lose your salvation" to understand that believers cannot lose their salvation. Preserved forever (Psalm 37:28); Never perish or be snatched from the hand of Jesus (John 10:27-28); And whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30); Sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14); Sanctified once for all/perfected forever (Hebrews 10:10,14) etc.. says it all for me.

*You have no unequivocal verses that say lost salvation, unsealed by the Holy Spirit, unregenerated etc..

 

[mailmandan]

Its a very good point @Judges1318 @mailmandan

The term sanctification is used throughout Hebrews 10

Hebrews 10v10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (BELIEVERS)
Hebrews 10v14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (BELIEVERS)
Hebrews 10v29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? (NOW THESE ARE SUPPOSEDLY NOT BELIEVERS)

Come on MailmanDan. Admit it. You don't need to gymkhana this verse 29 to fit your doctrine. It is plain to see. Why lie to yourself. Why lie to others. Be free.

I already thoroughly explained this in post #19 from the link below.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/#post-4132251

BTW there is no need for you to patronize me or call me a liar and there is no freedom in living in fear and bondage to IN-security. Been there, done that already while attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago.

 

[JohnW34]

I don't need the specific words, "can't lose your salvation" to understand that believers cannot lose their salvation. Preserved forever (Psalm 37:28); Never perish or be snatched from the hand of Jesus (John 10:27-28); And whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30); Sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14); Sanctified once for all/perfected forever (Hebrews 10:10,14) etc.. says it all for me.

*You have no unequivocal verses that say lost salvation, unsealed by the Holy Spirit, unregenerated etc..

I get confused with peoples language.
Jesus is about a relationship with God, living and dynamic. This relationship is salvation, eternal, never ending.
It is the reason we want to know Him, because He is so great.

Now if we grow cold, become hard hearted, proud and full of sin and rebellion and living in unbelief, surely that
which has been rejected and has died, cannot be said to be still alive and eternal?

People is Israel were cut off, though once accepted as part of the people of God.

Rom 11:19-21
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Why can I see this openly? Because I am confident in Jesus and what by faith He lays before me.
Only by faith, in daring to see to we hear and see.

In Christ there is no fear of loss, only when you are outside does fear grab your soul.

 

[Chris1975]

I already thoroughly explained this in post #19 from the link below.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/#post-4132251

To which the response was as follows:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/#post-4132255

 

[mailmandan]

I get confused with peoples language.
Jesus is about a relationship with God, living and dynamic. This relationship is salvation, eternal, never ending.
It is the reason we want to know Him, because He is so great.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

Now if we grow cold, become hard hearted, proud and full of sin and rebellion and living in unbelief, surely that
which has been rejected and has died, cannot be said to be still alive and eternal?

Does that sound descriptive of someone who is born of God? (1 John 3:9-10)

People is Israel were cut off, though once accepted as part of the people of God.

Rom 11:19-21
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Israel was in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" (vs. 24) and not because every Israelite was saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time yet afterward will be restored - Romans 11:25-27).

Why can I see this openly? Because I am confident in Jesus and what by faith He lays before me.
Only by faith, in daring to see to we hear and see.

In Christ there is no fear of loss, only when you are outside does fear grab your soul.

1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

[Judges1318]

It truly amazes me to see how everything I explained to you in post #258 just went right over your head.

I've understood and answered all your contentions. Some several times. You just keep going back to the rut of your own narrow indoctrination as if there is absolutely no other way possible to look at your favorite osas passages. You don't even bother to answer my arguments.

 

[mailmandan]

I've understood and answered all your contentions. Some several times. You just keep going back to the rut of your own narrow indoctrination as if there is absolutely no other way possible to look at your favorite osas passages. You don't even bother to answer my arguments.

I have answered your arguments numerous times in numerous posts and it's you who remains indoctrinated.

 

[JohnW34]

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

Does that sound descriptive of someone who is born of God? (1 John 3:9-10)

Israel was in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" (vs. 24) and not because every Israelite was saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time yet afterward will be restored - Romans 11:25-27).

1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

ptsd, shocks, life going in a way unexpected, takes many convictions away, shows other things up.
If I lightly include all, I can lightly exclude some.
If I say only at the end do we know in truth, then reassurance and foundational reality can slip.

Our reassurance is in the seal and experience of our walk with Jesus.
Some seem to want a safety net that includes them despite sin destroying the good they have.

 

[mailmandan]

ptsd, shocks, life going in a way unexpected, takes many convictions away, shows other things up.
If I lightly include all, I can lightly exclude some.
If I say only at the end do we know in truth, then reassurance and foundational reality can slip.

Our reassurance is in the seal and experience of our walk with Jesus.
Some seem to want a safety net that includes them despite sin destroying the good they have.

Sounds like psycho babble to me.

 

[JohnW34]

Sounds like psycho babble to me.

Eph 4:30-31
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

2 Tim 2:19
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

Claiming Jesus, "Lord lord" is claimed by many, but finding the reality and staying in it is different

1 Tim 3:13
Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus

Heb 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

It is sad but true, speaking through the word shows the reality better than offering insights just from ones walk.

Matt 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I do not want to judge others or their reality rather to encourage them to listen to and follow Jesus.

 

[Judges1318]

So how can a person who is sanctified one for all/for all time all of the sudden become magically un-sanctified?

By not believing anymore.
It's really that simple.

There's a lot of stuff to respond to. I can't hit it all, but I'll chime in where I can.