Apostasy 101

[mailmandan]

But for how long? That is what the exbeliever does not know. That is, if God hasn't already turned the exbeliever over to their unbelief. The Galatians were immature. I think God takes that into consideration when determining how long he will endure the backslider's unbelief.

Ex-believers (as you call them) are shallow ground believers whose belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start. God finishes the work He started (Philippians 1:6) and believers are sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

Friend, please read my posts carefully.
I never said God had turned them over to their unbelief, yet.

Show me the words, "turned them over to their unbelief" or "lost salvation" in the Bible. Or how about UN-sealed or UN-regenerated.

I thought you knew the definition of 'sanctified'.
It means 'made clean' and 'set apart for a holy purpose'.
The moment you were saved you were made clean and set apart for a holy purpose.
That 'set apart-ness' is also an ongoing process. In actual practice, you become more and more set apart. But in salvation itself it's instant.

Yes, that is the general definition of 'sanctified' but it can also be used for someone who is not saved. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses the word 'sanctified' to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). So in some cases, a non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation.

Justification means appearing perfect in God's sight. You are made perfect the instant you are saved.

Amen! Those who are justified have been accounted as righteous in God's sight. Yet the word 'justified' can also be used in the sense of being "shown to be righteous," as we saw in James chapter 2.

If you read the passages in Hebrews it doesn't say 'forever' means you can't lose justification. The mistake you are making is thinking 'forever' means you can't lose it. That is not what the letter says. It says what I'm saying.

So forever means temporary/less than forever? Not at all. In Hebrews 10:10, notice - ..WE we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified.

It says 'forever' means you don't have to repeat the sacrifice again and again like you did in the OT to be justified. With Christ and His ministry one time is all it takes. And which is why you should continue to cling to such a hope and not cast in away in unbelief.

We all know that Christ's sacrifice does not need to be repeated. It only takes one time, but Hebrews 10:10,14 clearly states WE have been sanctified one for all/perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. Your argument here is a desperate attempt to get around the truth. Those who continue to cling to such a hope demonstrate that they truly have been born again. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate that their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start. When are you going to stop fighting against the truth?

I'll be honest with you. I'm disappointed that you have not been reading my posts. Which is fine if you don't want to, but you led me to believe you were. But now I see you were not.

I have been reading your posts and I'm disappointed that you feel the need to resort to scripture twisting and dishonesty in a desperate attempt to win your case at all costs.

Of course they don't believe.
That's what happens to people who don't believe.
The promises are conditioned on present believing.

Saving belief continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

I sense you impressing your osas bias on the passage, because it seems you're saying 'did not believe to the saving of the soul' in your statement above means they never believed. You're in a box. I suspect your thinking is literally tainted with osas so you can't see scripture any other way. You literally can not see that there is a different and legitimate way to read these various scriptures we've been talking about.

It's you who is impressing your nosas bias on the passage. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. Simple! You are trying to create middle ground which isn't there.

No, it means those verses do not mean what osas says they mean. They don't have to mean what you have been taught they mean. They have to be interpreted in light of other plain scriptures that won't allow those wrong interpretations.

You mean those clear verses do not support your case, so now you must misinterpret them to fit nosas. These verses are crystal clear:

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Actually, Paul made it quite clear. Going back to the law for justification makes justification in Christ of no effect. That's a salvation issue.

If that was their final answer, but... People in the nosas camp seem to be looking for back door credit, which sounds something like this - "Its a good thing I pulled myself by my own bootstraps and kept myself saved, oh but by the way, thank you Jesus for initially saving me. You did your part, now it's up to me to do the rest. Man's preservation over God's preservation. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1)

 

[Grandpa]

And by your own words......how could they break a covenant they are NOT ALREADY IN? See the problem.

I was explaining this in a way I thought you would understand but now you want to twist words.

The New Covenant can't be broken, except by God.

The Old Covenant was broken by people not upholding their end.


There are people who are in the process of coming to the faith that will fall away. They have an intellectual belief that can be swayed one way or the other. They have not entered the New Covenant yet. They have not been given a new heart or Gods Spirit.

Once the new birth occurs the person is Gods Workmanship and they can no longer fall away.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Grandpa]

Obedience is the result of a careful analysis of an issued command, whether to abide by it of go against it. If the Lord puts obedience in your heart and then commands you, where does disobedience come come from?

That is the perfect carnal thought and the way the Pharisees went about working at the law.

They didn't understand what Christ would do and how He would work in the believers life.

Disobedience comes from unbelief.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This same verse is translated "disobedience" instead of unbelief in some translations. Although it gives legalists the wrong impression, disobedience and unbelief walk hand in hand. I prefer to call it unbelief because thats what it truly is. Then this unbelief leads to disobedience.

 

[Judges1318]

Only on the surface do these scriptures appear to contradict OSAS.

The need for osas to make so many passage not really mean what they say was a big reason why I abandoned the doctrine altogether. One, maybe two, I can accept, and on the basis of literally device used or particular circumstances. But the many verses of scripture that osas has to purposely make not mean what they say is disturbing.

the servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant a debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive, hypothetical situation.

Hypothetical situation?
Jesus said, "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart." - Matthew 18:35
As you can see, He's hardly talking about a hypothetical situation of being forgiven and then not being forgiven.

As unimaginable as this would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. In the story, such an unforgiving servant is called "wicked" because no genuine born again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart.

Problem:
The Master really did forgive the servant.

27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. - Matthew 18:27

That removes any argument as to the status of the person with the Master.

Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts and we reveal the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others.

No, Jesus said that you can not remain forgiven if you do not forgive others from a humble and repentant heart.

 

[DeighAnn]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Chris1975]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It's clear.

 

[DeighAnn]

Once the new birth occurs the person is Gods Workmanship and they can no longer fall away.

Which is why the scriptures are correct, but the doctrine of OSAS (not found as a doctrine in the bible), is not. It, the doctrine, was put together by man, and the doctrine put together by man is the problem. IT LEADS people to BELIEVE A LIE that all they have to do is "believe or once saved" and they are "forever saved or always saved" when in reality "they haven't been yet" because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD OF GOD (a process) BUT they hear a MAN say this and that is all they hear, and are led to believe, and their lack of knowledge doesn't matter because THE DOCTRINE has given them the stamp of approval. And when they fail, the Doctrine just says "you never really were" like it is their fault and not the doctrine with all the trappings of a man made thing. An idol. IMO

They were coming to Christ, yet BEFORE they arrived they were told they were ALREADY there, forever saved, and therefore didn't continue on" to the point of having ARRIVED" REQUIRED to be forever saved. But those who UNDERSTAND it is a PROCESS, and you can lose your place until arrival, DON'T STOP until they arrive.

 

[Noose]

That is the perfect carnal thought and the way the Pharisees went about working at the law.

They didn't understand what Christ would do and how He would work in the believers life.

Disobedience comes from unbelief.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This same verse is translated "disobedience" instead of unbelief in some translations. Although it gives legalists the wrong impression, disobedience and unbelief walk hand in hand. I prefer to call it unbelief because thats what it truly is. Then this unbelief leads to disobedience.

1. Did Adam have unbelief or did he disobey?
2. If God puts obedience in a man's heart, where does disobedience come from?
3. IF God puts obedience in a man's heart, why did He command Adam knowing very well that He had not put obedience in Adam's heart?

 

[Chris1975]

Which is why the scriptures are correct, but the doctrine of OSAS (not found as a doctrine in the bible), is not. It, the doctrine, was put together by man, and the doctrine put together by man is the problem. IT LEADS people to BELIEVE A LIE that all they have to do is "believe or once saved" and they are "forever saved or always saved" when in reality "they haven't been yet" because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD OF GOD (a process) BUT they hear a MAN say this and that is all they hear, and are led to believe, and their lack of knowledge doesn't matter because THE DOCTRINE has given them the stamp of approval. And when they fail, the Doctrine just says "you never really were" like it is their fault and not the doctrine with all the trappings of a man made thing. An idol. IMO

They were coming to Christ, yet BEFORE they arrived they were told they were ALREADY there, forever saved, and therefore didn't continue on" to the point of having ARRIVED" REQUIRED to be forever saved. But those who UNDERSTAND it is a PROCESS, and you can lose your place until arrival, DON'T STOP until they arrive.

Wise words.

 

[Noose]

A person is either saved or condemned (John 3:18) yet there are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) Chris1975 understands this. Works-salvationists generally mix up these 3 tenses and turn justification into an ongoing process.

This is just your own interpretation, far from what the bible teaches. Salvation is not in three stages, salvation is just salvation.
The one who stands victorious in the end is the one whose all these names will be applicable; glorified/ justified/reconciled/saved/chosen/redeemed but as long as we are living on this earth, we labor towards God's promises.

And you are also full of contradictions; if you have already been saved from the penalty of sin why are you still being saved from the power of sin?

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Believers have already achieved "having been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) According to your logic, believers are not truly saved yet, but are candidates for salvation who are on probation throughout their lifetime in (cross your fingers) hope of finally receiving salvation in the end.

Perseverance in faith is proof of genuine conversion. In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God may have begun with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but what about later?

So which Hebrews did the will of God? Those who have believed and not those who did not mix faith with what they heard. (Hebrews 4:2-3) Those who believed to the saving of the soul and not those who drew back to perdition. (Hebrews 10:39)

Believers can still hope with certainty, as I pointed out in post #235. 1 Peter 1:9 - .."receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls." Which tense of salvation is that? Hint: We are saved NOW, but this comes at the end. If your hope is not certain, then your hope is in the wrong object.

Are believers justified/saved NOW? Yes. Have believers received their glorified bodies yet? No. Think about it.

Again, what you are saying is not well thought out, you only persevere and be saved in the end, that's the essence of perseverance.

Rom 2:7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Rev 14:
12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

 

[Judges1318]

...

Ex-believers (as you call them) are shallow ground believers whose belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

I largely agree with this.
Why?
Because Jesus said it is the 4th kind of soil that brings forth fruit in perseverance.
Obviously, the deeper your roots go down the more likely you're going to persevere.

The mistake you are making is thinking just because one's roots don't go deep that means they didn't really believe in the first place. But Jesus plainly said the 2nd kind of soil was a person who believed.

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. - Luke 8:13

But osas has to make it mean 'they don't really believe for a while' changing what it actually says in order to preserve a predetermined osas understanding of the parable. What the osas'er does when they read the passage is say to themselves, "oh, that person didn't really believe in the first place because they didn't keep believing." That's reading the scriptures with bias instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

There's certainly room to let other scriptures help us discern what other scriptures are actually saying, but the experience of the Galatians prevents osas from inserting their bias into the Parable of the Sower. They stopped believing in Christ. And they were real believers. Immature believers. But true believers nonetheless. They were 2nd kind of soil believers.

 

[Judges1318]

God finishes the work He started (Philippians 1:6)

...if you keep believing.
The promises are for present tense believers, not for those who stop believing.

I just watched a couple of videos of Robert O'Neill (the guy who shot Bin Laden). He talks about his Navy Seal training and how tough it is. He said they tell you that you'll make it through if you keep going and don't give up. That's how it is in Christ. You WILL make it to the Day of Christ if you keep moving forward in faith and don't give up.

God's ironclad promise of finishing the work He starts in you is for the person who keeps believing, not for the one who bails out in unbelief along the way. You lose the finishing power of God if you stop believing in Christ.

This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. - 1 Peter 1:4,5

If you stop believing you lose the shield of God's power protecting you until the return of Christ, because it is through faith that you have that power.

 

[Judges1318]

and believers are sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

Yes, they are.
That's why you should keep believing.
Even you say "believers are sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession".
And that is correct.
Only present tense believers have the seal of God's promise.

Yes, I know, you say the true believer will always keep believing.
After much discussion about this subject I have come to the conclusion that the argument about osas boils down to whether or not a person can stop believing or not. That's really the only point that needs to be examined. Because unbelievers, including ex-believers, aren't saved, period.

This garbage about ex-believers still being saved is so ridiculous it's not even worth talking about except that so many in the church have been deceived by this new doctrine working it's way through the church like leaven in a lump of dough. My personal opinion is, once that leaven finishes working it's way through the dough, Christ will return. We're getting very close. I think it's the doctrine causing the end-times falling away.

 

[Chris1975]

Yes, they are.
That's why you should keep believing.
Even you say "believers are sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession".
And that is correct.
Only present tense believers have the seal of God's promise.

Yes, I know, you say the true believer will always keep believing.
After much discussion about this subject I have come to the conclusion that the argument about osas boils down to whether or not a person can stop believing or not. That's really the only point that needs to be examined. Because unbelievers, including ex-believers, aren't saved, period.

This garbage about ex-believers still being saved is so ridiculous it's not even worth talking about except that so many in the church have been deceived by this new doctrine working it's way through the church like leaven in a lump of dough. My personal opinion is, once that leaven finishes working it's way through the dough, Christ will return. We're getting very close. I think it's the doctrine causing the end-times falling away.

Well summarised

 

[mailmandan]

The need for osas to make so many passage not really mean what they say was a big reason why I abandoned the doctrine altogether.

Like the way you tried to make Hebrews 10:10,14 not really mean what they say? Don't be hypocritical. Not being able to properly harmonize scripture with scripture along with trusting in man's preservation over God's preservation got you to abandon the OSAS doctrine altogether. For the majority of eternal IN-securists, they reject OSAS because they do not fully trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and instead embrace "type 2 works salvation." I abandoned NOSAS upon my conversion several yeas ago after leaving the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church along with other false religions and cults that teach salvation by works ALL strongly oppose OSAS, which continues to be a major red flag for me.

One, maybe two, I can accept, and on the basis of literally device used or particular circumstances. But the many verses of scripture that osas has to purposely make not mean what they say is disturbing.

It's only disturbing to you because you fail to properly interpret those verses in context in order to understand what they truly mean, which then leads to your cynical conclusions.

Hypothetical situation?
Jesus said, "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart." - Matthew 18:35
As you can see, He's hardly talking about a hypothetical situation of being forgiven and then not being forgiven.

I did not say that how the Father will treat those who fail to forgive others is hypothetical, but keep in mind that the parable of the unforgiving servant is just that, a parable which gives the analogy of sin as debt.

Problem:
The Master really did forgive the servant.

27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. - Matthew 18:27

That removes any argument as to the status of the person with the Master.

No it doesn't because this parable illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. The contrast in verse 28, where the servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant a debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive, hypothetical situation and as unimaginable as this would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. Once again, in the story, such an unforgiving servant is called "wicked" because no genuine born again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart. Would failing to forgive others from the heart in such a small matter fit the description of children of God in 1 John 3:9-10? Absolutely not.

No, Jesus said that you can not remain forgiven if you do not forgive others from a humble and repentant heart.

Show me the word "remain" forgiven or "lost salvation" there. You are trying to turn this parable into "type 2 works salvation" and missed the point. A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that he has been forgiven by God’s undeserved and unearned mercy. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts. Failing to forgive in such a small matter exposes a lack of such a heart. Those who are unforgiving from the heart show that they are not fit to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not understood God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. Period. Post #224 still stands.

 

[mailmandan]

This is just your own interpretation, far from what the bible teaches. Salvation is not in three stages, salvation is just salvation.

Just my own interpretation, huh? Far from what the Bible teaches? So you reject justification, sanctification and glorification? There is only justification? If it's merely my own personal interpretation, then why are there so many articles written on the 3 tenses of salvation? Feel free to google "3 tenses to salvation" and watch how many articles come up.

The one who stands victorious in the end is the one whose all these names will be applicable; glorified/ justified/reconciled/saved/chosen/redeemed but as long as we are living on this earth, we labor towards God's promises.

You turn salvation into probation and receiving eternal life into type 2 works salvation. The one who stands victorious in the end is the same one who truly has been saved through faith. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

And you are also full of contradictions; if you have already been saved from the penalty of sin why are you still being saved from the power of sin?

I am not full of contradictions. You are just full of confusion. Those who have been saved from the penalty of sin are still being saved from the power of sin because believers are going through the process of ongoing sanctification (work out your salvation) throughout their lifetime. It's not work for your salvation as works-salvationists teach. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. That is positional sanctification, yet there is also progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality and becoming more holy in our behavior is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness in our behavior. We will reach ultimate or final sanctification when we receive our glorified bodies.

Again, what you are saying is not well thought out, you only persevere and be saved in the end, that's the essence of perseverance.

You just don't get it because you read the scriptures through the lens of works salvation.

Rom 2:7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture, which a common error made by works-salvationists.

Rev 14:
12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

In Revelation 14:12, the Amplified Bible reads - Here is [encouragement for] the steadfast endurance of the saints (God’s people), those who habitually keep God’s commandments and their faith in Jesus. The NASB reads - Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. (descriptive of genuine believers) 13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

You really stress "remain" to imply it's such a difficult burden to do so, which is typical from the mindset of type 2 works salvation. Also, their deeds follow them as the fruit of salvation, but not as the means of salvation. I usually hear SDA's quote Revelation 14:12 and stress commandment keeping as the means of obtaining salvation.

BTW did you ever come to understand that from the context of Romans 5:18 all men in Adam are condemned, and all men in Christ are justified? I will NEVER forget our conversation on Romans 5:18 in which you misinterpreted that verse to mean that one righteous act by Christ resulted in justification and life (automatically) for all people (including unbelievers). I almost fell out of my chair when I first heard you say that!

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...tion-can-be-lost.185786/page-162#post-4021360

 

[Chris1975]

Like the way you tried to make Hebrews 10:10,14 not really mean what they say? Don't be hypocritical. Not being able to properly harmonize scripture with scripture along with trusting in man's preservation over God's preservation got you to abandon the OSAS doctrine altogether. For the majority of eternal IN-securists, they reject OSAS because they do not fully trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and instead embrace "type 2 works salvation." I abandoned NOSAS upon my conversion several yeas ago after leaving the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church along with other false religions and cults that teach salvation by works ALL strongly oppose OSAS, which continues to be a major red flag for me.

It's only disturbing to you because you fail to properly interpret those verses in context in order to understand what they truly mean, which then leads to your cynical conclusions.

I did not say that how the Father will treat those who fail to forgive others is hypothetical, but keep in mind that the parable of the unforgiving servant is just that, a parable which gives the analogy of sin as debt.

No it doesn't because this parable illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. The contrast in verse 28, where the servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant a debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive, hypothetical situation and as unimaginable as this would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. Once again, in the story, such an unforgiving servant is called "wicked" because no genuine born again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart. Would failing to forgive others from the heart in such a small matter fit the description of children of God in 1 John 3:9-10? Absolutely not.

Show me the word "remain" forgiven or "lost salvation" there. You are trying to turn this parable into "type 2 works salvation" and missed the point. A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that he has been forgiven by God’s undeserved and unearned mercy. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts. Failing to forgive in such a small matter exposes a lack of such a heart. Those who are unforgiving from the heart show that they are not fit to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not understood God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. Period. Post #224 still stands.

Come on Mailmandan, you are really stretching in some of your points above. Why do you contort to such a degree is beyond my rational understanding. You have the opportunity, whilst you still have breath, to take the scriptures as they are literally written. Why would anyone defend a manmade doctrine over and above the word of God is beyond me.

You quote:
No it doesn't because this parable illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. The contrast in verse 28, where the servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant a debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive, hypothetical situation and as unimaginable as this would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. Once again, in the story, such an unforgiving servant is called "wicked" because no genuine born again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart. Would failing to forgive others from the heart in such a small matter fit the description of children of God in 1 John 3:9-10? Absolutely not.

Then you imply that the servant wasn't really forgiven (when the bible says he was). And you have to force fit that he wasn't forgiven because if you don't then your doctrine is upended. So with a bit of reengineering you state that this is just a parable and divorce the first part from the second part in effect. But the parable goes full circle --- the Master REVERSES the forgiveness of the debt (sin). We understand that. You don't. Because it proves our point.
Jesus doesn't go around cancelling debt of those who never asked Him in repentance. He only cancels the debt for those who throw themselves upon His mercy. This is what we see in the parable (THAT IS SOMEONE WHO BECOMES A BELIEVER). Then moving full circle, at the end this is reversed.

You cannot hide from this. Its very plain and clear. I know you had issues with Roman Catholicism. Got it. We have issues with it too. But you are throwing out the baby wit the bathwater, as the saying goes.

 

[mailmandan]

...

I largely agree with this.

Well that's a start. Keep going.

Why?
Because Jesus said it is the 4th kind of soil that brings forth fruit in perseverance.
Obviously, the deeper your roots go down the more likely you're going to persevere.

Only the 4th soil did persevere and produced fruit. What does that tell you about the other 3 soils which did neither?

The mistake you are making is thinking just because one's roots don't go deep that means they didn't really believe in the first place. But Jesus plainly said the 2nd kind of soil was a person who believed.

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. - Luke 8:13

The mistake you are making is assuming that ALL belief is the same. *Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved. So clearly, NOT all belief is the same.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted, consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

BTW: I remember having this conversion with Ralph (who many people suspect is YOU, yet when asked if you are Ralph, you simply dodge the question, which speaks volumes).

But osas has to make it mean 'they don't really believe for a while' changing what it actually says in order to preserve a predetermined osas understanding of the parable. What the osas'er does when they read the passage is say to themselves, "oh, that person didn't really believe in the first place because they didn't keep believing." That's reading the scriptures with bias instead of letting the scriptures speak for themselves.

I clearly proved my point from scripture that NOT all belief is the same, yet those in the nosas camp cannot seem to grasp this or refuse to grasp this in order to preserve their biased, predetermined nosas understanding of the parable. Roman Catholics and Mormons would strongly agree with your biased interpretation. No red flag, huh?

There's certainly room to let other scriptures help us discern what other scriptures are actually saying, but the experience of the Galatians prevents osas from inserting their bias into the Parable of the Sower. They stopped believing in Christ. And they were real believers. Immature believers. But true believers nonetheless. They were 2nd kind of soil believers.

More bias from the nosas camp. The Galatians were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers, which does not mean they permanently stopped believing. Paul did not say they lost their salvation and it was all over for them, which seems to be the biased opinion from the nosas camp. Your obsession with attacking the osas doctrine is reaching the point of nausea and your arguments remind me of the same arguments I heard several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church.

 

[KelbyofGod]

>All calls to holy living are rejected as works (despite overwhelming scriptural support).

That seems a rather astute observation.

 

[mailmandan]

That seems a rather astute observation.

I would say biased observation. Holy living involves works, yet we are not saved based on the merits of works which are produced from holy living. Believers should absolutely strive to live holy lives, which is part of our ongoing sanctification, but we must never fall into the trap of believing that we are "holier than thou" so based on that, the Lord will surely save me based on my performance, yet other believers fall short of my personal holy standard, so surely they won't be saved. This is where works salvation becomes a snare.