Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

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Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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Yes, I believe 2CR 5:7,-8a "We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident...". You don't?
You change it to say, "We live by proof, not by faith, We are absolutely certain..."?
That sounds like something a pope would say.
So when Paul wrote “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” was he too sure or certain of how the Lord will judge him?
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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So when Paul wrote “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing” was he too sure or certain of how the Lord will judge him?
You forget that Jesus appeared to Paul, but even so Paul says we walk by faith--and keep the faith, if we do not begin to doubt and commit apostasy. Do need me to post those verses again? :^)

So much for absolute certainty! Why are you not content with confidence based on good reasons and sufficient evidence?
 
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Belief = Faith, which is the opposite of absolute/infallible certainty that only the infinite/omniscient God has, despite papal claimants such as yourself, so all born-again fallible Christians must walk by faith/belief per NT teaching. Otherwise, Paul would have written, "We walk by proof/absolute certainty, not by faith", and Jesus would have said, "...that whoever has absolute certainty regarding him, not merely faith, shall not perish."
Biblical FAITH has SUBSTANCE, and is an EVIDENCE

Belief has neither.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Biblical FAITH has SUBSTANCE, and is an EVIDENCE

Belief has neither.
I have never met someone who says faith and belief are not synonymous, but here are some Scriptures you need to catch up on (not try to explain away).

RM 3:22 equates faith and belief, saying ""This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

Other verses describing saving faith as belief include: MT 18:6, 27:42, MK 1:15, 9:42, 16:16, LK 8:12, JN 1:7, 6:29&47, 9:38, 16:31, 20:27, ACTS 16:31, RM 10:9-10, 1CR 1:21, 15:2, GL 3:22, PHP 1:29, HB 11:6, etc.

HB 11:1 speaks of faith in terms of being "certain", but this means "having confidence" in HB 3:14 & 10:35 (until seeing is believing in heaven, cf. 1CR 13:12, 2CR 5:7).

Also note that the NT refers to those who have saving faith as "believers", not "faithers".
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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You forget that Jesus appeared to Paul, but even so Paul says we walk by faith--and keep the faith, if we do not begin to doubt and commit apostasy. Do need me to post those verses again? :^)

So much for absolute certainty! Why are you not content with confidence based on good reasons and sufficient evidence?
You misspelled “It’s difficult to admit I am wrong but now, given the verses you provided, I will have to rethink my position. Thank you, brother, for the help.”
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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You misspelled “It’s difficult to admit I am wrong but now, given the verses you provided, I will have to rethink my position. Thank you, brother, for the help.”
Actually, I am always ready to rethink, and I do thank you for helping in that regard, but I do not see that the verses you provided indicate that I should stop believing that I am fallible and instead claim to have absolute certainty, when Paul provided a verse (2CR 5:7) teaching us to walk by faith, which means to persevere in faith, so that we will not begin to doubt and commit apostasy. I guess I will persevere in believing Paul and being content with confidence based on good reasons and sufficient evidence rather than your help (but thanks for trying :^)
 
Nov 14, 2024
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I have never met someone who says faith and belief are not synonymous
Well - now you can't say that any more.

YOU have to hold on to "Belief" (Mental assent).

Biblical FAITH (Hebrews 11:1) Holds on to you, since has SUBSTANCE, and is an EVIDENCE of what you don't see (yet)
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Well - now you can't say that any more.

YOU have to hold on to "Belief" (Mental assent).

Biblical FAITH (Hebrews 11:1) Holds on to you, since has SUBSTANCE, and is an EVIDENCE of what you don't see (yet)
Do the following verses speak of persevering in faith or in belief? [The first four verses indicate the question in the brackets.]

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm [in faith/in belief] to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell [from faith/from belief], but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to [keep having faith in/keep believing] the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed [had faith] in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law [instead of by faith/belief] have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”[keep on having faith

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Okay, the next reason people might cease being a Christian is this: The influence of college education, where atheist professors demean faith in God.

Fortunately, I did not experience such professors where I attended, but we know that many of the Dem leaders of my generation did, including Hillary Clinton, who wrote a dissertation dedicated to the atheist Alinsky. Also, I spent breaks between classes associating with Christian friends at the Baptist Student Union.

Unfortunately, my own children were not able to duplicate the BSU support, although they also did not have atheist professors where they attended.
The next reason people might cease being a Christian: They think faith in the Bible contradicts scientific facts.

Has anyone experienced doubt because of this reason?
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Well I did, because of Christians who said that Scripture taught scientific facts and had to be interpreted literally, and because of atheists who claimed science showed the universe was billions of years old and the Bible contained numerous errors and contradictions.

None of y'all ever had doubts raised by such things/thoughts? And I thought that I had led a sheltered life!
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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Well I did, because of Christians who said that Scripture taught scientific facts and had to be interpreted literally, and because of atheists who claimed science showed the universe was billions of years old and the Bible contained numerous errors and contradictions.

None of y'all ever had doubts raised by such things/thoughts? And I thought that I had led a sheltered life!
Were you homeschooled?
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Were you homeschooled?
No, I was WASPed and Sunday Schooled.
My dad was a mechanical engineer and my mom was a Baptist.
So I believed in both science and Scripture.
Thus I experienced confusion concerning claims that science and Scripture conflicted.
Before I learned that science is fallible and Scripture involved science only incidentally.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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“From Paul to the Proud”
(A poetic paraphrase of RM 1:1-2:9a)

From Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, An apostle—called by the Lord,
Chosen to preach the gospel, foretold By prophets in the Holy Word.
Jesus was born a descendant of David, But rose from the dead as God’s Son,
An act of great power to prove Him divine— From Him I received a commission . . .
To lead all the world to believe and obey Including you living in Rome,
Whom God also loves and calls to be saved, And with Jesus to make your new home.

May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ Grant you peace and grace.
I thank them for you, because the whole world Is hearing that faith you embrace.
The God whom I serve with all of my heart Is witness that when I pray
I always remember you, hoping that He Will let me come see you some day.
I long to be with you and share by the Spirit The faith that will help us be strong.
My brothers, how often I’ve planned to come, But something has always gone wrong.

How eager I am to evangelize you In fulfillment of my obligations
To preach the good news to all kinds of people In all of the Gentile nations.
For I’m not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, Which has the power to save
All who believe, whether Gentile or Jew, Though once of Satan a slave.
It is written, the just shall live by faith, But the wages of sin is death,
Which is poured out on all who deny what is plain: That God has given them breath.

God punishes them because they are evil And blind to what clearly is true—
The fact of creation confronting them always No matter what they say and do.
They think themselves wise, while in truth they are fools And have no excuse at all.
Refusing to honor the power of God, They stumble in darkness and fall.
Exchanging the truth about God for a lie, They worship and serve only dust
That is made in the image of man and machine, Perverting true love into lust.

Burning with passion and shameful desires, Consumed by unnatural sex acts,
Men still choose to suffer and torture each other Rather than face the facts.
And yet God allows them to break all the rules: To murder, to hate, and to lie.
They invent new sins, while all the time knowing That demons deserve to die.

Do you, my friend, think you’re less to blame, While sitting in judgment on others?
Surely you see God’s mercy is meant For those who become Jesus’ brothers.
But you, hard-hearted, closed-minded and proud, Will one day God’s justice be meted.
When eternal life is awarded believers, Damned will be those He defeated!
 
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In the course of our discussions I have been chagrined to encounter folks who disbelieve Paul's teaching in 2CR 5:7 that we live by faith rather than sight regarding God or ultimate reality. They seem to be unaware that life presents humanity with the choice between two opposing faiths, God/Christ or atheism, just as A&E had to choose between believing God or the serpent.

On this thread in obedience to 1PT 3:15-16 I have shared reasons to believe that the best belief is in the NT God and Gospel of Christ, but for some reason a few folks seem to think that having good reasons for faith contradicts the certainty they believe they should have instead of mere hope, however confident. Apparently they do not realize that faith implies human volition rather than divine determinism, because the premise of biblical morality from the beginning is that human souls are free to believe or repent of sin and thus they are accountable when they refuse to cooperate with God (DT 30:19-20) and deserve to be condemned to hell.

I think any open-minded truthseeker who compares the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul with the founding scriptures of other religions will conclude that the NT is inspired by God, because its concept of one God as the just and all-loving Judge is spiritually highest and the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is most credible. The NT hope for heaven is based on evidence in support of Jesus’ claim to be Messiah/Christ, which includes: the prophecy or foreshadowing of His life (in various OT scriptures, including IS 53 and PS 22, and by the sacrificial system), the purpose of His death (as explained in the NT, such as HB 7:18-10:18), and the probability or credibility of His resurrection (in history as recorded by the last chapters of the Gospels and RM 1:3-4).

Thus, it is wise to believe in the NT God and to accept Jesus as God’s Messiah even though as finite and fallible sinners we cannot possibly claim absolute certainty about anything, even though God's Holy Spirit indwells our hearts and is manifested by loving fruit. Instead, we must persevere in faith until believing becomes knowing when we are resurrected to heaven.
 
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Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
How does one express faith in Jesus, by not following His teachings or example?

Can someone explain to me the difference between the NT God and the OT God?

Mal 3:16 “For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Jesus in the NT told us quoting from the OT

Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
 
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Can someone explain to me the difference between the NT God and the OT God?
OT = Law of Moses
NT = Law of Christ

And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should gain the Jews; to the ones under law, as under law, that the ones under law I should gain; to the lawless ones, as a lawless one, not being lawless to God, but lawful to Christ, that I should gain the lawless ones. 1 Corinthians 9:20-21
 
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OT = Law of Moses
NT = Law of Christ

And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should gain the Jews; to the ones under law, as under law, that the ones under law I should gain; to the lawless ones, as a lawless one, not being lawless to God, but lawful to Christ, that I should gain the lawless ones. 1 Corinthians 9:20-21
There is no dichotomy between Christ and God and if the law of Christ is different than the law of God one automatically disqualifies themselves Rev 14:12 Rev 12:17 Rev 22:14-15.

God claimed the Ten Commandments as His commandments, right in the unit of Ten that He wrote and He spoke, Never are the Ten Commandments called the law of Moses, those are the laws Moses wrote that were placed outside the Ten as a witness against for breaking what was inside the ark- God's Ten Commandments deut 31:24-26 written by the God of the universe.

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me (God) and keep My (God) commandments.

The God of the universe wrote and spoke, which is not Moses.

Moses didn't even take credit for God's works

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

It didn't change according to Jesus, so this argument is with a much Higher Authority than I,

3 He (Jesus) answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying,Honor your father and your mother’ Jesus was quoting from the Ten Commandments Exo 20:12
 
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There is no dichotomy between Christ and God and if the law of Christ is different than the law of God one automatically disqualifies themselves Rev 14:12 Rev 12:17 Rev 22:14-15.
The law of Moses and the law of Christ are both God's law, but they are different law for different dispensations. God does change the way in which he deals with his people. A person trying to live in both dispensations is double-minded, and unstable is all of his/her ways.
 
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The law of Moses and the law of Christ are both God's law, but they are different law for different dispensations. God does change the way in which he deals with his people. A person trying to live in both dispensations is double-minded, and unstable is all of his/her ways.
I see your words here, but we are told to live by God's Word Mat 4:4

God gave Moses the law of Moses, but the Ten Commandments is God's law, at least that what God and Jesus taught. Exo 20:6 Deut 4:13 Exo 32:28 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

There is no scripture that says ignore what Jesus taught and how Jesus lived. Its quite the opposite

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Are these different commandments than what Jesus kept? Of course not

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

There is only one Door and that is Jesus, no other way

John 15: 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.