Another Salvation Thread: Sin and Salvation

[DJT_47]

So, I visited a Baptist church recently, and had a little bit of discussion. I need to work on my tactfulness, since I might of offended someone, but my intent wasn't to do so. Anyways....

Baptists do what Baptists do, I get that, but some people who visit the church, already know John 3:16 and Romans 10:9. Let me try, to make this short here. So, basically what I'm getting at, is sort of a little bit of reasoning.

What's your take on sin and salvation? Are we still sinners when believe in Jesus, or does the law have no effect on us, once we trust in the LORD, or something else? The reason why I ask, because it doesn't make sense, what the Baptist said to me.

He said, once you are saved, you won't keep making the same sinful mistake. So, I said, if we sin the same way twice, we are in jeopardy? He then said, I wasn't taking it serious. Well, if what he said was true, than how many would make it to heaven?!?!

I'm not sure, if I made this clear enough, so I will try to explain it another way.

Do believers in Jesus still sin, if so can we sin the same way, like have an on going practice of sin, or something else? I think heard Creflo Dollar once quoted a scripture that said, the law has no penalty on believers, since we are a new creation. Maybe I miss quoted him, let try to find the scripture.

• Romans 8:1: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death".

So, hopefully I explained this clear enough, so people can understand. Are we without sin, once we are in faith in Jesus? If so, if we sin while in faith, are we not saved, or the sin doesn't count, because we are in faith? Basically what I'm getting at, once we are in faith in Jesus, what about sinning while in faith, is that possible? I ask this to hear your opinion on the subject, it does seem a little messy, for I thought the Baptist answer seemed unlearned, but maybe I was thinking not as a child in faith, but more of logical reasoning.

Anyways, lets hear your answers, so to speak. Hopefully, I made this clear.

If you're in sin, you're not saved; and what does the bible say about removal of sin? At what point is sin removed? It's upon baptism into Christ.

Acts2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[HigherGospel]

Grace and peace.

Not for those who are reprobate refusing to accept the whole counsel of the Lord.

 

[Cameron143]

Not for those who are reprobate refusing to accept the whole counsel of the Lord. View attachment 282202

You must have a fun time arguing with yourself when no one else is around.

 

[soulprobe]

You do not know what sin is. That's your problem.

Well I have no doubt, (you being an expert Christian sinner going online and teaching that Christians can repeatedly sin to their last breath and still be saved), that you're an expert on knowing what sin is and how to commit it and promote it. You've got me beat there. Congratulations: You know more about sin and sinning than I do. What an accomplishment.

 

[soulprobe]

So this is the pattern: if you say that sinning is unacceptable to God, we'll accuse you of committing little ridiculous "sins" to try to guilt trip you into shutting up.

To them all sins are equal. If you steal a paperclip from work you may as well stab somebody in the eye with it while you're at it.

 

[Gideon300]

Thank you for clearing this up.
In this post here which made me question you are saying that even if you keep sinning you’ll still go to Heaven.
So, we’re good now.
Thank you.

You are welcome. I'm not sure that you understand even now. Sin is not the issue. Those who are born again are already in heaven. If someone is speeding, loses control and dies in a car crash, he is accepted by God. The basis for acceptance by God is what Jesus has done, not our behaviour. Anyone can have a temporary lapse or even battle a stubborn sinful attitude. There are consequences in life, and some are serious. However, Either a person is saved and seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, or they are lost, dead in trespass and sin. There is no in between state.

I'll say this again: if someone loves sin and has no conscience about sinning, i seriously doubt that they are saved.

Well I have no doubt, (you being an expert Christian sinner going online and teaching that Christians can repeatedly sin to their last breath and still be saved), that you're an expert on knowing what sin is and how to commit it and promote it. You've got me beat there. Congratulations: You know more about sin and sinning than I do. What an accomplishment.

Perhaps I do. The more I grow in Christ, the more I discover what sin really is. You something else? I also I discover more the depth of the wonderful salvation that Jesus gave up everything, even His life, to purchase for me.

You willfully twist what I say and ignore some statements that I've made that give the lie to your comments. You should check yourself out before condemning others.

There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Keep that in mind before you pass judgement on issues you know nothing about. If you keep it up, I will ask God to show me what sin you are covering up. I won't make it public, but I will ensure that you know what I know.

 

[Gideon300]

To them all sins are equal. If you steal a paperclip from work you may as well stab somebody in the eye with it while you're at it.

To God, all sins are equal. If you do not see that, it displays your ignorance for all to see. Break one commandment and you break them all. Paul said something to that effect.

 

[Caveman]

Here's a different perspective...Salvation is a three-phase process that is initiated by God alone via the Atonement. What was accomplished at the Atonement was universal Justification for all ungodly men (without merit or contrition of any kind by the sinner man). This was an unmerited gift from God. Messiah's Death, Blood and Life was accepted by the Father and in so doing Christ redeemed all men from the slavery of sin and death (making our Peace with God) and made it possible by trusting in His Faithfulness for us to enter into a living relationship with the Father that begins the New Birth at our Sanctification. This is where we are given His Spirit and are cooperatively transformed into the image of Christ; these are the works He has given us to walk in. He works in us by His Spirit that we have now indwelling in us; this is how we overcome..by His Blood and the word of our testimony. God at the Judgement will then purge us completely of all sin and present us as though we have never sinned; and we will be like the sinless Son of God. Those of mankind who are Justified by His Atonement but choose to resist God's offer of Covenant relationship by willingly being transformed into His image (Sanctification) will be punished in Hell for a time but after (God knows) they have been humbled and purged by the cleansing of the fiery punishment will eventually call on God as we all have who are Sanctified now into covenant relationship; so eventually they too will be Glorified and made to be like the sinless Son of God. How do we know this...? God has sworn that those He Justified "HE" will Glorify. It's not dependent on man (we would screw it up), but He has promised those He Justified He Will Glorify; you can't get any plainer than that! Evidenced by the fact that we all were made in His image; and God had a failsafe from before the Beginning...Christ crucified! When Adam sinned and his first-born son killed his youngest son...in both cases though both Adam and Cain had direct warning from God…they sinned anyway, but what did God do...He cursed the ground not Adam and He put a sign on Cain forehead to protect him. This is parental Love of a Father...His unconditional Covenants are His to accomplish...the one conditional Mosaic Covenant exposed just how sinful we are, and it became a Covenant of death to us! SO, the Father of Mercy and Justice paid the price for our freedom and wholeness because we could never meet His righteousness on our own, so as our Kinsman Redeemer He took our place and became victorious over death and He hid us in Christ, so we have perfect Peace now with God. The thing we need to remember is that though God does allow temporal punishment, that is only meant to humble us for our good; and even physical death like what happened to Pharaoh because of hard heartedness was only temporal. He intends to bring all His children (image of God) home that the enemy has corrupted. See Hebrewgospeldotcom to learn that the NT was originally written to the church in Hebrew and then translated into Greek later. There are only 4 surviving NT Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts. Scholars would have you believe that because there are tons and tons of Greek NT manuscripts (compared to the Sephardic Hebrew) and that they are the oldest…that this = "original" NT writtings.... that is flimsy at best and purposely biased. God always goes to the Jew first and then the Gentile..this is the model Jesus also followed. The first century Believers were mostly Jewish and all the Disciples who wrote the NT were Jewish eyewitnesses of Christ. The reason the Hebrew NT manuscripts are so rare is because very quickly many more Gentiles became believers and fewer and fewer Jews were continuing to convert to Christianity, so the need for Greek translations was practical. The OT Greek translation took OT Hebrew and stylized it into a Greek linguistic construct, but no one ever says the Greek Septuagint predates the OT Hebrew! The Greek NT is obviously a translation from the Hebrew...the evidence of its Hebraic originality is the chiasms, idioms and Covenantal imagery. The Hebrew NT is written in a Conventual relationship construct whereas the Greek is abstract in its concepts and emphasizes our faith not His Faithfulness; as an example, Greek says in John 1 "The Word","The Word","The Word" and the Sephardic Hebrew manuscripts say "The Son", "The Son", "The Son".

 

[Eli1]

You are welcome. I'm not sure that you understand even now. Sin is not the issue. Those who are born again are already in heaven. If someone is speeding, loses control and dies in a car crash, he is accepted by God. The basis for acceptance by God is what Jesus has done, not our behaviour. Anyone can have a temporary lapse or even battle a stubborn sinful attitude. There are consequences in life, and some are serious. However, Either a person is saved and seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, or they are lost, dead in trespass and sin. There is no in between state.

I'll say this again: if someone loves sin and has no conscience about sinning, i seriously doubt that they are saved

My friend I now understand your position better after this discussion.
Just to let you know, I have heard this whole OSAS angle before but I saw a contradiction , perhaps because how you express yourself or perhaps trying to reconcile your position, which you have clearly done here.

As I mentioned to you I don’t accept this interpretation and there no difference than a violent Muslim, but yes God will see the heart and hopefully you won’t end up in jail during the process.

To me after a long journey with God , I have learned to be at peace with the way people choose their fellowship with God.

 

[GWH]

Sadly, you did not provide the definition of what the fear of the Lord is that the Lord gave us in His Word:
(It's time to up your game)

What is the fear of the Lord ???

Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way, And the perverse mouth I hate.

More scripture concerning fear Christians need to be aware of:

The fearful will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8)

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Romans 13:4
If thou do that which is evil, be afraid





Sure it is because you fail to share what God says in His Word concerning how to cease from sin and then you claim people living in sin are still in right standing before the Lord all of which is false doctrine and is what false teachers claim who are not skillful in the Word of Righteousness because they are still in diapers after all these years.





God loves everyone that is in hell. God's love does not prevent anybody from going to hell, if it did then universalism would be a reality because God said in His Word (John 3:16) that He so loved the entire so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Once someone becomes a believer, they are expected by the Lord to live for Him walking in the Spirit being led by the Holy Spirit based on God's Word - not living for self, ignoring the leading of the Lord false claiming to still be saved. These people get this garbage from false teachers in false "churches" who have a form of godliness but deny power thereof





Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.

Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done

The gifts and callings of God are without repentance which means God cannot violate our free will and save us anyway IF we choose to go back to our sin which is living in darkness. In God there is NO darkness. (1 John 1:5)

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOES righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
( they should allow the Holy Spirit to LIVE in them as it is He that will do the good works as they submit to the Lord )

What's at issue here is when a born again person sins, they become corrupt because they turned away from the Lord in order to sin against Him doing what they know they should not be doing and they decided to do it anyway.

You claim in error that they do not which is the false claim that we can live in sin and still be saved. According to Galatians 6:7-8 this is mocking God claiming mankind does not reap what he sows.

That was satan's deception to Adam and Eve in the garden was that they could sin and not die spiritually, and sadly folks like yourself have been deceived by the same lie as you refuse to accept the whole counsel of God and are instead following carnal man made teachings that opposed God's Word because thery are based on satan's deceptions and scripturte twisting.

It's sad to see you take the wide path that leads to death. The good news is you're still breathing so there is time for you to REPENT but time is short.

Yes, spot on post!

I will fine tune only one statement: Once someone becomes a believer/loves Jesus as Lord, they will want to live for Him walking in the Spirit being led by the Holy Spirit based on God's Word - not living for self... (Phil. 3:12-16)

 

[Eli1]

And @Gideon300 just to let you know, you’re still contradicting yourself on post 266 because earlier you said that even a bad thought is a sin (which I agree because that’s also what the Bible says) and on that post 266 you say “there is no inbetween state”.

But the important thing is that you’re happy and at peace with this.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

No lying, fornicating, adultery. (including no porn) theft, coveting, boasting, bragging, using God's name in vain including the "OMG".... now what about you?

Even the thought of foolishness is sin.

There is not a just man upon the earth that forth good and sinneth not.
For the wages of sin is death.

That's why we need the Savior.
When you look in the mirror, is that where you find him?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Perhaps I do. The more I grow in Christ, the more I discover what sin really is.

I seriously have my doubts. Speeding is not a sin, but treating others like you don't like being treated is evil.

 

[GWH]

I seriously have my doubts. Speeding is not a sin, but treating others like you don't like being treated is evil.

Well, fudging 5 mph on the freeway may not be a sin, but going 50 mph through a school zone probably warrants a ticket,
unless the yellow light is not flashing but the red light on your cop car is, because you are chasing a murderer.
(Life is rarely simple :^)

 

[Eli1]

Well, fudging 5 mph on the freeway may not be a sin, but going 50 mph through a school zone probably warrants a ticket,
unless the yellow light is not flashing but the red light on your cop car is, because you are chasing a murderer.
(Life is rarely simple :^)

Agreed, a cop will only chase a murderer not a killer.
They usually buy coffee to killers.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

And @Gideon300 just to let you know, you’re still contradicting yourself on post 266 because earlier you said that even a bad thought is a sin (which I agree because that’s also what the Bible says) and on that post 266 you say “there is no inbetween state”.

But the important thing is that you’re happy and at peace with this.

The contradiction lies in the fact that behavior is not of crucial importance to them because they view sinful thoughts and sinful behavior equally, ie, “there is no inbetween state.” Having a bad thought is the same as acting out that thought, so it really doesn't matter what they do. As a result, no real effort is put into controlling what they do.

Add to that the belief that they are totally depraved and can't do anything righteous, and you have the recipe for justifying sinful behavior. They think that their BFF Jesus understands their dilemma and winks at their sinful behavior. This is how they can be happy and at peace with the contradiction

Jesus did say wanting to commit adultery is same as doing it, but he didn't say they are equal. James said sin is a process that begins in the heart and mind and only finds outward expression if we allow it. This is the "inbetween state" in which we can nip sin in the bud and not let it bear fruit. This is walking righteously, without which no one will enter the kingdom of God.

 

[HigherGospel]

Once someone becomes a believer/loves Jesus as Lord, they will want to live for Him walking in the Spirit being led by the Holy Spirit based on God's Word - not living for self... (Phil. 3:12-16)

Exactly. We should desire to please the Lord and live in agreement with Him desiring what He wants

You must have a fun time arguing with yourself when no one else is around.

I'm not the one with voices in their head.

Well I have no doubt, (you being an expert Christian sinner going online and teaching that Christians can repeatedly sin to their last breath and still be saved), that you're an expert on knowing what sin is and how to commit it and promote it. You've got me beat there. Congratulations: You know more about sin and sinning than I do. What an accomplishment.

Yep, some folks are proud degenerates!

There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

Why don't you post the whole verse???

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Condemnation applies to those walking after the flesh because sin in the flesh has been condemned

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

It's time to start accepting ALL of what God's Word says and stop the cherry picking to make it appear as though one can live in sin and still be saved which is doctrines of demons.

There is not a just man upon the earth that forth good and sinneth not.

Wow so you believe no one person ever got born again and started walking with the Lord???

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Why don't you post the whole verse???

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Because it"s an interpolation. The word mistranslated as condemnation means an adverse verdict. When someone is baptized into Christ there is no adverse judgment against him because all sin has been paid for. The righteous effect of the law is fulfilled in those who walk according to the spirit, as explained in verse 4.

G2631 κατάκριμα katakrima (ka-ta'-kriy-ma) n.
an adverse sentence (the verdict).

 

[soulprobe]

To God, all sins are equal. If you do not see that, it displays your ignorance for all to see. Break one commandment and you break them all. Paul said something to that effect.

Only to Satan, and expert Christian sinners like yourself, are all sins equal... That's the excuse all you expert Christian sinners use to keep sinning because you all love sinning so much that you want to teach other Christians to follow you. That saying, “Misery loves company”, can also be applied to “Sinners love company”. The last people that expert Christian sinners want to hang out with are Christians who are not sinning…. In fact they actually hate Christians who do not sin and love non-Christian sinners and try to convert them by saying you can join us and keep sinning just as you are and you'll be saved with the rest of us.

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask [pray for him], and He [God] will give him life [forgive him] for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that [pray and ask God to forgive him]." 1 John 5:16

So a sin not leading to death is not equal to a sin leading to death, so much so that when non-sinning Christians see someone like yourself, an expert Christian sinner, sinning a sin leading to death, like teaching Christians that they can sin all they want and still be saved, it's not something that they should pray about by asking God to forgive you... that's something you gotta do on your own after you've demonstrated your repentance by not teaching Christians that they can sin all they want and still be saved. And you must stop other sins you’ve been committing as a consequence. The most that any non-sinning Christian can do is admonish you, and pray to God that you yield to their admonishment.

"All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death." 1 John 5:17

So all unrighteousness that a Christian observes another Christian doing is sin... but not all sin (unrighteousness) a Christian observes another Christian doing leads to death if a Christian who is not sinning prays for that Christian who is sinning a sin that does not lead to death.

The entire above message is not for Satan and expert Christian sinners like yourself who consider stealing a paper clip as equivalent to sticking it into someone’s eye, it’s for those novice Christians who have not yet fallen into your trap.

 

[Gideon300]

I seriously have my doubts. Speeding is not a sin, but treating others like you don't like being treated is evil.

Speeding not a sin? We are required to obey the law of the land. There are times when speeding may not be a sin, in an emergency perhaps. Otherwise yes, it is sin.