Complicated. I don't want to be the Judge. Jesus knows the heart, yet... to whom much is given, much is required. He was in a position of leadership and is accountable for leading others astray.
I agree. It makes my heart sink to think about it....
Andy Stanley's Apostasy
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I agree. It makes my heart sink to think about it....
So you think that if YOU die with ANY unconfessed sin, YOU have lost your salvation and will spend eternity in hell? This really smacks of sinless perfection heresy.
Yes we are. We ABSOLUTELY are talking about His Sacrifice.
Apparently not. You believe your continuous confession, and obedience keeps you saved. You have said as much by saying if you fail to confess post conversion you are lost. I believe it is JESUS that keeps me saved.
Ah. Now we're going to parse "willful sin" and, I guess, regular sin? Are you suggesting you haven't willfully sinned after conversion?
Of course we should confess and repent of sins we commit after being saved. It is literally the Christians bar of soap. There are all sorts of consequences for continuing in unrepentant sins as a Christian. Both in this life, and in eternal life.
This life: Health problems. STDs for sexual sins, Cancer, relationship problems, car crashes, for drug or alcohol sins, etc...
But MOST importantly, an ineffective witness for the Gospel.
Eternal life: Suffer loss as specifically mentioned in Scripture.
But ONE thing that certainly won't happen, is loss of Salvation!
And so you doze off at the end of the day, without confessing that day's sin, you die of heart attack in your sleep, and you are eternally lost?
Absurdity!
No, it doesn't. Informing others of their need to repent implies that we will sin. That is quite the opposite of sinless perfection. Try to think before you post, my friend.
No, we are not. We are talking about the need to confess and repent of our sins. (Unless you believe that His sacrifice is a license to sin?)
You are responsible for living by faith. Jesus' gift made salvation possible. You are accountable for what you do with that. Jesus does not care about your good works, but He does care that your heart remainsright with Him.
Is your heart right with God at this moment, or do you just take His salvation for granted and do your own thing?
I thought you just said that it was Jesus that kept you saved...
I'm glad that you are finally starting to see the importance of "soap". (Repentance).
That's the Andy Stanley line. Strange bedfellows in Heaven then.
That it is, my friend.
Ugh. You either purposely twist what I’m saying, or are truly unable to retort and make sense.
I did not say that confession after conversion kept someone saved. That’s the heresy you believe.
I even outlined what the consequences were for failing to do so. You conveniently omitted that part with your rebuttal.
I’ve said before, and I’ll say again.
We’re both right in this argument. YOU can lose YOUR salvation.
But I can’t. Because I know the One who gave and keeps it, and He knows me.
I sure wish you’d believe and trust Him, instead of yourself. Friend.
You are an extremist. Why would those who are truly born of God and are new creations in Christ and have become partakers of the divine nature (1 John 3:9-10; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Peter 1:4) want to embrace homosexuality which is an abomination to the Lord? I am nothing like Andy Stanley.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says nothing about becoming a Christian, then going back to living in sin and becoming unrighteous all over again. That is your eisegesis. It's actually the opposite. The apostle Paul mentions the unrighteous and describes their sinful lifestyles then goes on to say in verse 11 - "And such were (past tense) some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."
In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.
You have some warped views of eternal security. It also makes me wonder what you have truly placed your faith in for salvation. Jesus Christ alone or your works/performance/best efforts to completely stop sinning.
"On the surface" that's what the writer of Hebrews appears to teach, but we need to take a closer look at Hebrews 6:4-6 and not jump to conclusions. Why did you leave out verse 9? This sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and permanently falling away do not accompany salvation.
Let's take a closer look at these verses here. In regard to once enlightened, this means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which "precede" receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.
Now those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of God's word yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (regeneration, salvation, repentance unto life, justification etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the "knowledge of the truth" and do not believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39) are not saved.
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
In regard to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.
It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God infallibly knows the hearts of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout scripture.
That argument is inconclusive. If that were true then these verses would be a lie. (Psalm 37:28; John 6:37-40; 10:27-29; Romans 8:30; 11:29; 1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Philippians 1:6; 1 John 5:11-13 etc..). Apostacy is something that is committed by one who has been exposed to and understands the truth yet abandons the truth which they failed to fully embrace. Such people draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
As you can see, I have properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. I find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.
No it's not.
The doctrine is you are born again. Into God's family. A son/daughter.
You are a good tree that cannot bear bad fruit.
Your Heavenly Father will instruct you through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and discipline you when you fail to repent.
He will NOT kick you out of His family.
Anyone who preaches that you can sin all you want is preaching heresy.
Those that use human logic to determine that those who say they have Eternal Security in Christ, teach you can "sin all you want", are not understanding the work the Holy Spirit does in a child of God. REGARDLESS what any Paster says.
I'm certain you don't like us saying that you rely on YOUR works and YOUR continuous confession, and your obedience to keep you saved. Have you done enough? Confessed enough? Sinned too much? Constantly worried you'll slip up and go to hell? That's what a lack of trust in Christ's finished work reaps.
Because in our eyes, that's exactly what you do. Interesting the VAST amount of threads that viciously attack the believers in Eternal Security.
Yes. I guess I'm just a simple-minded man that takes the Scriptures at surface value. I believe that all it takes to be saved is to call upon the name of the Lord.
Doesn't mean that we have put down deep roots yet, like those at the end of the chapter did. I believe that immature shallow Christians are still Christians nonetheless.
You don't need to know me, friend.
You need to know Jesus Christ!
if you are regenerated, sealed with the Holy Spirit, then He will keep you saved.
Why would you be upset? I'm agreeing with EXACTLY what YOU believe? That you can lose your salvation.
I think you're in the same group as Dr. Charles Stanley. He also believes in eternal salvation that causes people to repent and obey God.
I don't have any problems with Christians like that. As long as anyone remains in the Lord consistently and letting Him do His work in their lives to transform them more and more into His Christlikeness until God takes them home to Himself, they truly belong to God.
I think that non-OSAS believers like me are mainly against those who say they're Christian, but then don't abide in Christ and doesn't show any change at all from the rest of the unbelievers.
Christ has done His part, but we must do our part.
1 Peter 1:
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Ephesians 5:5
“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
1 Peter 1:
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Ephesians 5:5
“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
I can absolutely respect that. And frankly, don't really have a problem with those that think differently than me about Eternal Security.I think you're in the same group as Dr. Charles Stanley. He also believes in eternal salvation that causes people to repent and obey God.
I don't have any problems with Christians like that. As long as anyone remains in the Lord consistently and letting Him do His work in their lives to transform them more and more into His Christlikeness until God takes them home to Himself, they truly belong to God.
I think that non-OSAS believers like me are mainly against those who say they're Christian, but then don't abide in Christ and doesn't show any change at all from the rest of the unbelievers.
I don't agree, but that's ok.
My problem is the vitriol aimed at those of us that DO believe in Eternal Security.
I mean just look at the OP. He tries to equate those who embrace homosexuality with those that believe in eternal Security, just because some Pastor who may or may not link the two.
Thank you for your civility.
Oh I think it's relative to say that I USED to believe one could lose Salvation. I believe the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to that error about 10 yrs ago.
Charles Stanley is a legend in the Baptist world. He explained Eternal Security in the video, which of course is heresy.
Agreed. That is in fact Satan attacking a solid Bible doctrine and causing people to doubt their salvation through others who have no clue about either the grace of God or the finished work of Christ. There is generally a very poor understanding of these key doctrines. But the Bible is crystal clear. The one who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ is eternally secure. And that is not a license to sin but an incentive to live righteously, soberly, and godly in this present world.
Both. We must come by faith and then live by faith. No one involved in an unholy lifestyle shall enter the Kingdom.
Ephesians 5:5
“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
Context!
No one enters the Kingdom of God based on their own merit or lack thereof.
It is all Jesus.
He saves, based on faith in Him and His work, and He never, ever withdraws/ removes His gift of justification.
That is the Gospel, otherwise you have nothing but self-effort to stay saved or some level of sin that God did not cover by the precious shedding of His blood.