And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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FreeGrace2 said:
It means a dead person (body in grave and soul either in heaven or Hades (torments)) doesn't know what going on around the world or in the place where they used to live. They are gone. But their bodies are here. Do you understand this?
Eccl 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.
So you disagree that at physical death, the body goes to a grave and the soul goes either to God or Hades. Wow.
v.5 is clear; while living, everyone knows that they will physically die at some point. But once dead, the person has no information about what's going on around the world, or the place where they used to live.
As to reward, that would refer to rewards given while alive and on the earth.
v.6 reiterates what v.5 teaches. iow, all their experiences on earth while alive will have vanished. It clearly doesn't say their soul will vanish. And they WON'T have any part in what happens on the earth. The unsaved won't be resurrected until the Millennium is over and they will be called to the GWT for judgment.
You have demonstrated your own inept discernment.
It means a dead person (body in grave and soul either in heaven or Hades (torments)) doesn't know what going on around the world or in the place where they used to live. They are gone. But their bodies are here. Do you understand this?
Eccl 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.
So you disagree that at physical death, the body goes to a grave and the soul goes either to God or Hades. Wow.
v.5 is clear; while living, everyone knows that they will physically die at some point. But once dead, the person has no information about what's going on around the world, or the place where they used to live.
As to reward, that would refer to rewards given while alive and on the earth.
v.6 reiterates what v.5 teaches. iow, all their experiences on earth while alive will have vanished. It clearly doesn't say their soul will vanish. And they WON'T have any part in what happens on the earth. The unsaved won't be resurrected until the Millennium is over and they will be called to the GWT for judgment.
You have demonstrated your own inept discernment.
There have been NO insults. I have described your sentiments towards the unsaved as maudlin. That is not an insult. If I called YOU an idiot, that would be an insult. Your feelings towards the unsaved are quite sentimental. Without reason and without excuse.
OK, hypersensitive ears as well. Just put your fingers in your ears if you read my posts. I use caps for emphasis, as everyone knows.
If a whole sentence were capped, then that is "screaming", which I've never done.
Not even trying to change yours. You don't want the facts since your mind is already made up. I refute you for the benefit of others who just read the threads with no intention of posting. I'm giving them the truth.
Well, that is wrong again. I would have to tell YOU that YOU are idiotic or stupid in order to insult you. I haven't done that.
Aren't you aware that people with very high IQs can say stupid things? Well, they sure can. Do you really think that everything that comes out of their mouths are wise?
You can deny what you want an I'll think what I want.
lol. That makes me laugh.
I will tell you that I don't respect false doctrine or such teachers. Which I believe you are.
OK, hypersensitive ears as well. Just put your fingers in your ears if you read my posts. I use caps for emphasis, as everyone knows.
If a whole sentence were capped, then that is "screaming", which I've never done.
Not even trying to change yours. You don't want the facts since your mind is already made up. I refute you for the benefit of others who just read the threads with no intention of posting. I'm giving them the truth.
Well, that is wrong again. I would have to tell YOU that YOU are idiotic or stupid in order to insult you. I haven't done that.
Aren't you aware that people with very high IQs can say stupid things? Well, they sure can. Do you really think that everything that comes out of their mouths are wise?
You can deny what you want an I'll think what I want.
lol. That makes me laugh.
I will tell you that I don't respect false doctrine or such teachers. Which I believe you are.
The soul being “permanent” I take you mean to be immortal. The unsaved human soul isn’t immortal and it can die or be destroyed.
You shouldn’t assume anything; by all means research the immortality of the unsaved human soul. You won’t find a single verse that says anything along the lines of “the human soul is immortal and it can never die.”
You shouldn’t assume anything; by all means research the immortality of the unsaved human soul. You won’t find a single verse that says anything along the lines of “the human soul is immortal and it can never die.”
One thing I’ve noticed that the ECT people are keen to do is make the Bible conform to an idea rather than make their ideas conform to the Bible.
Please note these false assumptions used by the ECT crowd:
1 death isn’t death
2. destroy isn’t destroy
3. people who are destroyed don’t cease to exist
4. death can’t be a punishment
5. the unsaved soul is immortal
6. the immortal soul of the unsaved has eternal life
7. God will not destroy all souls of the unsaved in hell because Matt 10:28 only says “able to.”
8. If a word definition isn’t helpful then change the definition. If a Greek or Hebrew word isn’t translated to a preferred way then choose a different translation.
This is, in summary, pretty much what they believe, If you think of any other points feel free to add to this list.
Please note these false assumptions used by the ECT crowd:
1 death isn’t death
2. destroy isn’t destroy
3. people who are destroyed don’t cease to exist
4. death can’t be a punishment
5. the unsaved soul is immortal
6. the immortal soul of the unsaved has eternal life
7. God will not destroy all souls of the unsaved in hell because Matt 10:28 only says “able to.”
8. If a word definition isn’t helpful then change the definition. If a Greek or Hebrew word isn’t translated to a preferred way then choose a different translation.
This is, in summary, pretty much what they believe, If you think of any other points feel free to add to this list.
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Then give just one verse that actually shows a soul being destroyed or dying.
Not verses that submit to your demands of specific words.
However, we do know that 2 humans will be in the LOF for 1,000 years before being joined by the devil and all his angels. Do you think their still have their bodies, since you believe that "death", "perish" and "destroy" ALL happen to the body, soul and spirit at the same time.
It is obvious that the whole concept of a LOF would fairly quickly destroy any body. But the Bible says the beast and FP are still there. And will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Bible shows 2 humans still in the LOF after 1,000 years. There's no way the body would last 1,000 years.
This is proof. But you remain stubbornly resistant to reality.
Not verses that submit to your demands of specific words.
However, we do know that 2 humans will be in the LOF for 1,000 years before being joined by the devil and all his angels. Do you think their still have their bodies, since you believe that "death", "perish" and "destroy" ALL happen to the body, soul and spirit at the same time.
It is obvious that the whole concept of a LOF would fairly quickly destroy any body. But the Bible says the beast and FP are still there. And will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Bible shows 2 humans still in the LOF after 1,000 years. There's no way the body would last 1,000 years.
This is proof. But you remain stubbornly resistant to reality.
A rather odd comment, since the opposite it true. We read the bible as it reads.
There are no verses that say that souls will cease to exist. It does talk about bodies that will cease to exist.
Lying. They DO mean what they say. But they don't refer to souls, but only to bodies.
Their bodies will cease to exist.
Sure it is.
so what. The unsaved soul doesn't have God's eternal life. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Lying again. No, they don't. God IS eternal life. He gives the gift to saved people. So it is absurd to claim unsaved people who will be tormented day and night for ever an ever have eternal life.
Reality: "able to" NEVER means "will". If God will, there will be a verse that says so. You don't have any.
I see no example or evidence. Empty claim.
I just refuted you competely.
There are no verses that say that souls will cease to exist. It does talk about bodies that will cease to exist.
Lying. They DO mean what they say. But they don't refer to souls, but only to bodies.
Their bodies will cease to exist.
Sure it is.
so what. The unsaved soul doesn't have God's eternal life. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Lying again. No, they don't. God IS eternal life. He gives the gift to saved people. So it is absurd to claim unsaved people who will be tormented day and night for ever an ever have eternal life.
Reality: "able to" NEVER means "will". If God will, there will be a verse that says so. You don't have any.
I see no example or evidence. Empty claim.
I just refuted you competely.
Is God able to destroy a soul?
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Does God destroy souls?
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Does God destroy souls?
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Parables should be understood to express spiritual truths, not the reality themselves.
In the parable of the sower, people do not cast literal seeds onto the ground and based where the seeds fall, grow/wither, then determine how they will receive the word of God.
Hypocrites do not have a literal speck or beam in their eye.
The kingdom of heaven is not a literal mustard seed.
In like manner, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. It speaks of spiritual realities, not the literal way it physical occurs.
In the parable of the sower, people do not cast literal seeds onto the ground and based where the seeds fall, grow/wither, then determine how they will receive the word of God.
Hypocrites do not have a literal speck or beam in their eye.
The kingdom of heaven is not a literal mustard seed.
In like manner, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal. It speaks of spiritual realities, not the literal way it physical occurs.
It’s guaranteed death of the unsaved soul.
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
In Ezekiel 18:20, God definitively said the soul that sins will die. That’s not a suggestion, that’s a promise. Now this is where the ECT really don’t like what the Bible plainly says because it utterly debunks their false claims. We’ll often see people try to retranslate the Hebrew word for soul to mean a physical body.
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
In Ezekiel 18:20, God definitively said the soul that sins will die. That’s not a suggestion, that’s a promise. Now this is where the ECT really don’t like what the Bible plainly says because it utterly debunks their false claims. We’ll often see people try to retranslate the Hebrew word for soul to mean a physical body.
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I don’t even know what you’re talking about. I said the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not reality. People don’t go to torment for having good things in life.
The Bible says God gives rain to the just and unjust.
Matt. 5:45
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
People don’t go to comfort for having bad things in life. Abraham said in this parable that they won’t believe someone who rises from the dead, but the entire Christian faith pivots singularly upon the resurrection being real. Abraham wasn’t being literal because this is a parable.
Jesus is not a literal thief in the night because stealing is a sin. It’s just a comparison. Got it?
You need more discernment to understand these things Jackson. Only God can help you with that I believe.
1 Corinthians 15:17-19
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith isvain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
The Bible says God gives rain to the just and unjust.
Matt. 5:45
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
People don’t go to comfort for having bad things in life. Abraham said in this parable that they won’t believe someone who rises from the dead, but the entire Christian faith pivots singularly upon the resurrection being real. Abraham wasn’t being literal because this is a parable.
Jesus is not a literal thief in the night because stealing is a sin. It’s just a comparison. Got it?
You need more discernment to understand these things Jackson. Only God can help you with that I believe.
1 Corinthians 15:17-19
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith isvain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
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Noticed something interesting that I didn’t notice before in 1 Cor. 15:18.
1 Corinthians 15:17-19
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith isvain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Paul said that those who are “fallen asleep in Christ” (as in they physically died) are perished if the resurrection isn’t real. Let they sink in for a moment.
If you’re in Christ after physical death you don’t perish.
If you are not in Christ after physical death then you perish.
There’s that perish word again. Perish means destroy utterly, Paul said if there is no resurrection then they are in their sins and will be destroyed - that would mean no physical resurrection and the destruction of the soul is certain.
Jesus confirmed this in John 3:16.
This verse is pure gold to prove soul death of the unsaved. Keep this ace up your sleeve. Glory to God.
1 Corinthians 15:17-19
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith isvain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Paul said that those who are “fallen asleep in Christ” (as in they physically died) are perished if the resurrection isn’t real. Let they sink in for a moment.
If you’re in Christ after physical death you don’t perish.
If you are not in Christ after physical death then you perish.
There’s that perish word again. Perish means destroy utterly, Paul said if there is no resurrection then they are in their sins and will be destroyed - that would mean no physical resurrection and the destruction of the soul is certain.
Jesus confirmed this in John 3:16.
This verse is pure gold to prove soul death of the unsaved. Keep this ace up your sleeve. Glory to God.
09. Death is nothing to fear (clearly against what the Bible says).
10. Death is what they want (clearly against what the Bible says).
11. If you believe what the Bible says you are not a Christian.
12. If you believe what the Bible says you are a JW.
13. If you believe what the Bible says, you are an SDA.
14. If you believe what the Bible says, you are promoting new age beliefs.
15. If you believe what the Bible says, you do not believe what the Bible says.
16. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable (despite Scripture which says Jesus only taught in parables).
17. All things will not be made new despite Scripture saying otherwise.
10. Death is what they want (clearly against what the Bible says).
11. If you believe what the Bible says you are not a Christian.
12. If you believe what the Bible says you are a JW.
13. If you believe what the Bible says, you are an SDA.
14. If you believe what the Bible says, you are promoting new age beliefs.
15. If you believe what the Bible says, you do not believe what the Bible says.
16. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable (despite Scripture which says Jesus only taught in parables).
17. All things will not be made new despite Scripture saying otherwise.
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