And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

Carissa19 · Aug 17, 2022

Is Hell really an eternal fire?metaphor/ literal eg. If ur right hand causes you to sin , cut it off. Thats a metaphor. Who exactly is saved? Saviour of all men or Saviour of only Some? Why is there still a confusion. Is God not the author of confusion?

I am torn between two equally opposing beliefs that are both equally valid and both equal in evidence for . Saviour of all eventually/ only some

Now what distinguishes this world from heaven is this world is filled with sin. Everywhere you turn it appears to be there like you cannot escape it. You run from it and it keeps popping up everywhere. There are many many many sins! On the list of what can damn you to eternal hell. Saying you ‘fool’ , afraid to Preach Jesus to people, Arguing!, reading Astrology books about Stars!, walking away from a Homeless person who wants something from you !, being vain! , loving food, drinking alcohol, disobeying parents!, woman cutting her hair! wives failing to submit, division among believers ,having or making a graven image! /statue of angels?(What of artwork is idolatory, this has been argued for ages), loving fancy clothing, not being slow to speak, not blessing those who do evil against you, not turning the other cheek when people abuse you, not doing good to the ones who hate you, not giving to others who ask anything from you, Swearing and using Curse words, using God’s name inappropriately, using his name to curse, Self pity, Selfishness, Stubbornness, hypocrisy , gossiping , boasting , complaining , revenge ,Anxiety , worry , watching things contrary to all the doctrines in the Bible, thinking evil in your heart against anyone! , Depression, anger, fear , hatred, jealousy , lazyness, gluttony, looking lustfully , sexual immorality , pride , temper, you eat cookies while they are not necessary for you while there are starving children, watching of shows that depict the most abominable occult and withcraft eg. Harry Potter, the use of tarot cards which seem harmless when you look at them but are tied with witchcraft. Even buying things that have been worked upon some sort of suffering or slavery! How can you call yourself perfect when ‘in sin your mother conceived you ‘ ‘none is righteous not one’. We are all clearly guilty of something!

Saviour of all men eventually? /Hell may not be eternal fire? That although Hell exists would it be for a temporary suffering / in a eternal state of misery away from God in punishment yet not unimanigable suffering of fire surely this cannot be a soul tormented like this? Fire is a terrible thing? For this to be torturing you forever? Really? But yes punishment exists perhaps? in a manner according to what one has done. Believers and Non believers we are all equal in deserving hell for not one of is righteous at all! If we claim to be we are liars he says! We all have some sin we are guilty of, when we are guilty of 1 , we are guilty of ALL and of HELLFIRE he said! For in sin was I conceived but if I confess he will cleanse me and I am saved. Even what I think is being righteous is filthy rags! For it is by Grace not of yourselves or of works lest any man boast. For your works are all filthy rags all have gone astray none are righteous , even perhaps a soul is completely destroyed forever. Be not afraid of the body being killed but the soul being destroyed in gehenna. Here is mention of destroy which means to cease to exist. Mal 4:3 - Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,” says the LORD of Hosts. Ps 37:20 - But the wicked and enemies of the LORD will perish like the glory of the fields. They will vanish; like smoke they will fade away. Ps 92:7 - that though the wicked sprout like grass, and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed. Suggesting a soul would even cease to exist. The expression, "Burn with fire" is a quintessentially Hebraic expression. While it is true that “burn with fire” is technically redundant, it was an expression used to convey a feeling of intensity and complete destruction, ie, not merely scorched. Here is a sample:
- Ex 12:10 - And you shall not leave any of it over until morning, but whatever is left of it until morning, you shall burn with fire [= completely destroy it]
- Ex 29:14 - But the flesh of the bull and its hide and its refuse, you shall burn with fire [= completely destroy it] outside the camp; it is a sin offering
- Lev 8:32 - The remainder of the flesh and of the bread you shall burn in the fire [= completely destroy it].
- Lev 13:57 - and if it appears again in the garment, whether in the warp or in the woof, or in any article of leather, it is an outbreak; the article with the mark shall be burned in the fire [= completely destroyed]
- Yet is this temporary eternal fire a metaphor just like where he says if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off. He didn’t mean literally did he an everlasting fire? Christ is a Sovereign Lord of Grace, saying he takes no delight in the wicked perishing, loving his enemies willing all to come to him, his will is that all men be saved, yet men by their own free will send their soul to seperation from God, but can man’s free will be more sovereign than God’s will? The will to save all men souls eventually reconciling a Sinful broken hearted world upon himself, a Power of Love that has defeated victoriously upon Roman cavalry the forces of darkness a Saviour of all men’s souls not wishing any of his little ones to perish but to come to repentance and for all to weep in anguish sorrow and humility for him when he comes on the Clouds of heaven after the many disasters will cause immense fear upon the earth and all men shall eventually believe upon him and confess him as Lord and Saviour of Heaven eventually even if there is indeed Wrath and sorrow to come on all men’s souls. Should there be a hell would it temporary? Or should souls be annihilated and destroyed yet not eternally tortured? Death being one sorrow that all men will suffer for their sins yet redemption and Salvations draws near to all. For all are sinners. And all will be given wrath and punishment upon the earth according to what he deserves.
- There is also mentioned of different levels of hell eg. Places of outer darkness not just fire. That God (the Lord Jesus has the keys to Hades etc) can control.

Pleas to Yahweh cannot escape the Sheol,[19] and yet, Yahweh remains its unequivocal master.[20]Those who descend into Sheol cannot escape it,[21] yet Yahweh raises souls from it. Furthermore, despite the evidently abstract nature of Sheol, there is some physicality to it: it was clearly understood to be subterranean,[22] which is further supported by its association with the term bor ("pit"), found in Isaiah 14:15, 24:22, and Ezekiel 26:20. It is a "land",[23] contains "gates", is apparently compartmentalized, and there are numerous mentions of its "deepest depths" and "farthest corners". The idea that both the righteous and unrighteous eventually descend to Sheol appears to be an unspoken assumption in the Hebrew Bible

Saviour of only bridegroom

Everything is sin, is it not? Now even God judges the inward thoughts and feelings! If you have one evil thought you are ALREADY very guilty and in danger of hellfire that is the standard he has very clearly set for there to be rules and doctrines that must be OBEYED AT ALL TIMES. If you are guilty of 1 sin, you are guilty of all! For Christ raises the bar to the highest standard demanding we obey his every command to be Perfect . Yet can we even do it? Be perfect ? I think not quite . But we can be very close to it as we grow in wisdom and be ‘like’ Christ, crucified in the flesh. Similar to him in his righteousness. But we will always struggle to be exactly how he wants us to be we will always be struggling daily against the Forces of Evil that seek to destroy our Souls. Why because we notice this world is very heavily cursed, yet Heaven is the new world with no sorrow suffering or sin. Where he shall wipe all tears away and bind up the wounds of the broken hearted. Will not everyone Love him? Is this what he desires for us to love him forever? Did he not reconcile all of us to bow our knee for ALL men to confess him as Lord and Saviour. Were not all things made for his Glory? Does not even Satan serve a purpose to God? For God is sovereign! Nothing that Satan can do, that God has not allowed! If he is More powerful than Satan! It says in the bible he is the Lord Jesus the Saviour of all men and exceedingly a saviour for believers .

Is Grace enough to save?

Magenta · Aug 17, 2022

Edify said:

Then Jesus said, “There was a man who had two sons...."

Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions...."

Then He told them a parable: “The ground of a certain rich man produced an abundance...."

Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any."

Then Jesus told them this parable: “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the pasture and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulder s, comes home, and calls together his friends and neighbors to tell them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my lost sheep!’"

Runningman · Aug 17, 2022

Jackson123 said:

My Bible says the rich man and Lazarus went where they did because they received good or evil things. People don’t go to torment for receiving good things or comfort for receiving evil things. You’ll find that nowhere in the OT or NT. This is a parable.

Luke 16:25 KJV
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Magenta · Aug 17, 2022

Runningman said:

Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to
you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance.
Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. This is why I speak to
them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’"

***********

Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; He did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Jackson123 · Aug 17, 2022

Runningman said:

My Bible says the rich man and Lazarus went where they did because they received good or evil things. People don’t go to torment for receiving good things or comfort for receiving evil things. You’ll find that nowhere in the OT or NT. This is a parable.

Luke 16:25 KJV
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

I know it is parable but parable not contradict real incident

Jackson123 · Aug 17, 2022

Carissa19 said:

Temporary Eternal fire??

if so just say it, “temporary fire”

to fit your doctrine you call temporary eternal, odd

FreeGrace2 · Aug 17, 2022

Runningman said:

You are reading the text incorrectly. Jesus NEVER said "because" or even suggested it. And I proved from Paul's preaching that in the OT salvation was by faith in the Messiah. And he was preaching in the NT.

There is no cause and effect. I suggest you slow down when you read or even read aloud so you can hear what you say.

Unlike EVERY parable, Jesus used not only proper names, but even Abraham himself in a conversation. You have deceived yourself.

Right. Nothing about cause and effect. There is NO "because" here. Jesus was comparing and contrasting their lives on earth and after death. That's all.

Runningman · Aug 17, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You are reading the text incorrectly. Jesus NEVER said "because" or even suggested it. And I proved from Paul's preaching that in the OT salvation was by faith in the Messiah. And he was preaching in the NT.

There is no cause and effect. I suggest you slow down when you read or even read aloud so you can hear what you say.

Unlike EVERY parable, Jesus used not only proper names, but even Abraham himself in a conversation. You have deceived yourself.

Right. Nothing about cause and effect. There is NO "because" here. Jesus was comparing and contrasting their lives on earth and after death. That's all.

No I’m reading it correctly. People don’t go to torment for receiving good things in life. Period.

Runningman · Aug 17, 2022

Jackson123 said:

This parable isn’t a real incident. There’s no such thing as speaking coherently while engulfed in flames in the Bible. There’s no such thing as a resurrection from the dead not being enough to convince people.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 17, 2022

Runningman said:

You're quire naive then, if you believe that. There are many moral and religious people in the world that NEVER believed in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, for salvation. They go to torment for not believing.

And you ARE reading it incorrectly. Jesus was merely contrasting their lifestyles. He said nothing about cause and effect, as you are claiming. Take my advice and read it slowly, or even better, read it aloud so you can HEAR yourself.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 -
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Those who "have not believed" have, in fact, NEVER believed. That alone is the basis of their condemnation and torment.

Never one's lifestyle.

What kind of church has been "teaching" you anyway? It isn't even close to what the Bible teaches.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 17, 2022

Runningman said:

Why do you apply a physical body to a text that has none? It was the man's soul. And NO ONE knows how souls react to fire. Obviously he wanted relief. But the real issue is that your comment discounts what Jesus said. Why would Jesus make up something that couldn't possibly be true?

Why are you second guessing Jesus? Are you smarter than Him? What you are showing is your unbelief of Scripture; Scripture that doesn't fit your emotions.

Runningman · Aug 17, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

No I’m reading it correctly.

Now I know for certainty you’ll argue just about anything.

Here’s what the word but means in English:

But - used to introduce a phrase or clause contrasting with what has already been mentioned.

Now here’s the verse where Abraham explained why he was in torment and Lazarus was in comfort:

Luke 16:25 KJV
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

What was mentioned:
“…in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things: and likewise Lazarus evil things…”

What is being contrasted:
“…but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”

Good grief man you have some serious reading comprehension problems. That explains everything. This is simple contrasting a cause and effect. There’s nothing about the gospel in this parable or law-keeping.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 17, 2022

Runningman said:

You are not.

<sigh> You are just trying to be impossible.

Hello there. That's my point. Thanks for acknowledging. Jesus was CONSTRASTING the life and the death of 2 men. He said nothing about cause and effect. I guess you don't understand how to set up a conditional clause.

These are descriptions of their contrasted life on earth. There i NOTHING about cause and effect.

That would be you. You seem seriously deficient in how conditional clauses work.

You had initially used the word "because". So where did you see it in what Jesus or Abraham said? Nowhere is where.

Good grief NO. A simple contrasting. There is NO NO NO cause and effect. You are very guilty of eisegesis.

The key was what the rich man understood and why he wanted Lazarus to go visit his brothers.

First, it isn't any kind of parable. Second, in Jesus' day, the "establishment Jews", the leaders and priests, all thought law keeping would save them. And John 5:39 completely destroys that nonsense.

Runningman · Aug 17, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

No I’m reading it correctly.

The only reason Abraham offered for why the rich man was in torment was because he had good things in life. That’s cause and effect. He had good things in life therefore he gets torment. That isn’t how punishment works anywhere in the Bible. God doesn’t punish people for having good things. This is a non-literal parable, but most of all it says absolutely nothing about eternal conscious torment.

kleronomos · Aug 17, 2022

THE FALSE PROPHET -

Who is cast out of heaven to the earth?

Who rises up from the earth?
Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Wouldn't that be just like the image NEBO THE KING OF BABYLON set up to be worshipped?

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

SOUNDS just like like an ANTI christ to me.

kleronomos · Aug 17, 2022

THE DEVIL

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

THE FIRST PROPHECY GIVEN,
Jesus was crucified - the serpent bruised his heel
the devil cast into the lake of fire - Christ bruised his head

7779. shuph ►
Strong's Concordance
shuph: to bruise
Original Word: שׁוּף
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shuph
Phonetic Spelling: (shoof)
Definition: to bruise
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to bruise
NASB Translation
bruise (2), bruises (1), overwhelm (1).

Brown-Driver-Briggs
[שׁוּף] verb bruise (Late Hebrew id., Aramaic שׁוּף, שְׁפַף, rub off, away, grind (Exodus 32:20 ᵑ7 ᵑ9 for טָחַן); see especially DrGn; > Di and others think "" form of I. שׁאף); —
Qal Imperfect3masculine singular + 2 masculine singular הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ ראֹשׁ וְּאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב Genesis 3:15; אֲשֶׁרבִּֿשְׂעָרָה יְשׁוּפֵנִי Job 9:17; אַךְ השֶׁךְ יְשׁוּפֵנִי Psalm 139:11 meaning unsuitable, read perhaps with Ew and others יְשׂוּבֵּנִי cover, screen, me.

שׁוֺפַךְ see שׁוֺבַךְ. שׁוּפָמִי see שְׁפוּפָם below שׁפף.

I. שׁוּק (√ of following, meaning dubious; Arabic is drive beast etc., carry on affairs; Ethiopic sustain; compare Arabic leg, especially shank, Aramaic שׁוֺקָא leg (rare), leg, thigh; connection dubious with Assyrian su‡u, street, Aramaic שׁוּקָא, , street, market-place (whence Arabic loan-word according to Frä187; but then = שׁ?), Palmyrene שוק id., Lzb373).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
break, bruise, cover
A primitive root; properly, to gape, i.e. Snap at; figuratively, to overwhelm -- break, bruise, cover.

The beast, the false prophet, and the devil ARE ALL of the old serpent.

The Adversary is brought in, in Gen, the adversary taken out in Rev.

That old serpent, the devil and Satan

FreeGrace2 · Aug 17, 2022

Runningman said:

You are quite stubborn. And reading incorrectly. There's NO "cause and effect" in the account.

Go back and read it once again. There is NO 'explation' for WHY he was in torment. Unless you believe that those who experience "the good things in life" will all end up in torments. But that doesn't make sense, does it.

The text does NOT show Abraham explaining WHY the rich man was in torments.

Then Jesus was teaching that salvation and hell are about whether one suffers in life or not. That is nuts.

You just said that Abraham "offered the reason WHY the rich man was in torment", which "was because he had good things in life".

I just quoted what YOU posted above. Do you not remember what you post within the post?

The issue of ECT isn't about torments anyway. Hades will be thrown into the LOF.

I am really stunned at the way you read the Bible. Nothing that you have said about Jesus' account is in the account.

And you contradicted your own words, as I just showed. Total confusion.

Jackson123 · Aug 17, 2022

Runningman said:

Why make parable contradict real incident?

Runningman · Aug 17, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You are quite stubborn. And reading incorrectly. There's NO "cause and effect" in the account.

Go back and read it once again. There is NO 'explation' for WHY he was in torment. Unless you believe that those who experience "the good things in life" will all end up in torments. But that doesn't make sense, does it.

The text does NOT show Abraham explaining WHY the rich man was in torments.

Then Jesus was teaching that salvation and hell are about whether one suffers in life or not. That is nuts.

You just said that Abraham "offered the reason WHY the rich man was in torment", which "was because he had good things in life".

I just quoted what YOU posted above. Do you not remember what you post within the post?

The issue of ECT isn't about torments anyway. Hades will be thrown into the LOF.

I am really stunned at the way you read the Bible. Nothing that you have said about Jesus' account is in the account.

And you contradicted your own words, as I just showed. Total confusion.

It’s just that the truth is stubborn and doesn’t change regardless of opinions. Big difference.

Runningman · Aug 17, 2022

Jackson123 said:

Sorry I am not sure what you mean exactly. What is the real incident?

And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

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