And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Runningman]

OK. That's your opinion.


It is.


Yes it does. And I explained that. Are you aware that there will be a physical resurrection of all unbelievers?

John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.


No, since all unbelievers WILL BE resurrected back into their earthly physical bodies, when they are cast into the LOF, it will be their physical bodies that will DIE AGAIN. Hence, a second death. Real simple.


There is nothing of common sense or biblically sound in claiming that torment can be applied to someone who no longer exists.

Do you believe in voodoo? That's sticking a pin in a doll that resembles someone you want to torment. Does it work? No. Neither will tormenting a person who no longer exists work. Just common sense.

Not really my opinion. The Bible doesn’t say what you claim it does. All unbelievers seen tormented forever. You don’t have a verse for that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Punishment is meted out once; the effects are eternal. It is not eternal punishing.

There cannot be eternal "effects" IF IF IF the person no longer exists. It's just not possible.

Your second assertion harkens back to the "death is not punishment" argument, which is quite illogical.

Heb 9:27 says that it is oppointed ONCE for man to die, and then the judgment. So judgment follows physical death.

Matt 25:46 says the unbelievers will suffer "eternal punishment". Can you explain how to punish someone who doesn't exist?

Death is what God proclaimed as punishment right from the beginning.

Yep. Matt 25:46. The punishment will be eternal. Never ending.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not really my opinion. The Bible doesn’t say what you claim it does. All unbelievers seen tormented forever. You don’t have a verse for that.

i've given you the verses and you are free to reject them.

What does Matt 25:46 mean to you?

 

[Magenta]

There cannot be eternal "effects" IF IF IF the person no longer exists. It's just not possible.

Heb 9:27 says that it is oppointed ONCE for man to die, and then the judgment. So judgment follows physical death.

Matt 25:46 says the unbelievers will suffer "eternal punishment". Can you explain how to punish someone who doesn't exist?

Yep. Matt 25:46. The punishment will be eternal. Never ending.

Your whole argument hangs on punishment needing to be ongoing for it to be considered punishment. That is simply not logical. Perhaps you believe our whole justice system has it wrong, too, with death being the severest from of punishment reserved only for the worst of criminals. Oh, wait. You do not believe death is punishment at all, since once someone is dead the punishment has become null and void. Odd, since death is what God proclaimed would be the consequence of disobedience to Adam and Eve, and this same pronouncement is made throughout Scripture from beginning to end: the wages of sin is death, and the wicked shall be be destroyed. Some say, too, that death is nothing to fear. That also flies in the face of what Scripture explicitly states.

 

[Runningman]

i've given you the verses and you are free to reject them.

What does Matt 25:46 mean to you?

The eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46 is obviously death and destruction. That’s why the Bible repeatedly says unbelievers perish, are put to death, or are destroyed.

 

[CS1]

NO Jesus NEVER lies.

So the question is what do the words tormented, everlasting, ever and ever mean to God?


Psalm 9:3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.
Psalm 9:4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.
Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.



Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.



What a PERFECT way to pass JUDGEMENT


Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.



James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James 2:13 For He shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

At least if I AM IN ERROR, I error on the side of MERCY.


And the devil, the deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur where also the beast and the false prophet and THEY will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages



Have you taken notice that not one person has shown a single soul, doing anything but getting tossed in?

No one other than THE DEVIL FALSE PROPHET AND BEAST are we told will be be tormented day and night to the ages of ages?

With all the conversation going back and forth and all the reasoning and all the assumptions and conjecture THIS FACT REMAINS TRUTH.

HOW is it everyone cant just say YES, THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN and NO, that is NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN? It shouldn't be that hard, should it?

"So the question is what do the words tormented, everlasting, ever and ever mean to God? "

The answer to this is found in the word of God. Torment is how Jesus describes it a place of pain suffering and gnashing of teeth.
Everlasting when God says we must remember God is eternal therefore the place of hell God created for the devil was made to last forever. The contrast is Hell forever or heaven forever both are eternal

 

[CS1]

As long as you don't find yourself deceived with the rest of the 'whole world'. Up until last 50 years or so it didn't matter but now that the Fig tree has shot out a shoot...

Jesus is my Lord. He said take heed no man deceive you. many speak of things they will never see because they have not even met the Lord Jesus in salvation.

 

[Gojira]

Please do not project your doubts onto me and call them my own. Thank you

Yeah umm... Not sure how this addresses my main point.

 

[Magenta]

Yeah umm... Not sure how this addresses my main point.

Which was what exactly? You were kind of all over the place...

 

[Gojira]

Which was what exactly? You were kind of all over the place...

Yeah, exactly. You addressed only the word "doubt" in my post and failed to see the larger point, which does not need a re-explanation.

 

[Magenta]

Yeah, exactly. You addressed only the word "doubt" in my post and failed to see the larger point, which does not need a re-explanation.

Having been all over the place in your response, what exactly was your larger point? Please clarify.

No, not the word doubt. The fact that you said they were mine. They are not mine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your whole argument hangs on punishment needing to be ongoing for it to be considered punishment.

Well, that's pretty much how it works.

That is simply not logical.

The idea of being punished while not existing is not logical. Maybe you could explain how to punish someone who doesn't exist.

Perhaps you believe our whole justice system has it wrong, too, with death being the severest from of punishment reserved only for the worst of criminals. Oh, wait. You do not believe death is punishment at all, since once someone is dead the punishment has become null and void.

You have misunderstood me. Physical death is only punishfor FOR THIS LIFE. When dead, THAT punishment IS over.

Odd, since death is what God proclaimed would be the consequence of disobedience to Adam and Eve

Are you aware of what the literal Hebrew actually says? "dying, you shall die". Do know why there are two deaths for Adam and Eve?

and this same pronouncement is made throughout Scripture from beginning to end: the wages of sin is death, and the wicked shall be be destroyed.

Please prove that the verse means annihilation of soul.

Some say, too, that death is nothing to fear.

Not for believers. Only for unbelievers. And most ARE afraid. But there are those who don't believe in the afterlife, and don't fear death. Boy,, are they surprised when they die.

That also flies in the face of what Scripture explicitly states.

Huh? Haven't you read what Paul wrote about physical death? Was he afraid of death? Hardly. He looked forward to it.

Here's the bottom line. Is there a verse that says souls will die, cease to exist?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46 is obviously death and destruction.

What is obvious is that it will be eternal punishment.

That’s why the Bible repeatedly says unbelievers perish, are put to death, or are destroyed.

Again, since there will be a physical resurrection of unbelievers, it will be their resurrected body that will perish, die and be destroyed when their body is cast into the LOF.

You can disagree, but you cannot refute that fact.

 

[JTB]

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

I don’t think God ‘sends’ anyone to 'hell' or eternal damnation. Look at it this way. Suppose I built a resort for the homeless, and all I asked was that on their way in the door they acknowledge and thank me for doing so. “Hey man, I really appreciate you doing this” and you’re in the door. Tell me to kiss off, and you can go sit outside on the curb. Am I really responsible for those who chose to sit outside on the curb?

Too, what is hell? Our universe is made up at the subatomic level with clusters of like charged particles, which science tells us should naturally repel each other. They call the unknown factor that keeps it all from exploding "the strong force". There are several theories as to the source of this ‘strong force’, including God’s claim that He holds it all together. Now, on that theory, God claims He spoke it all into being out of nothingness - while science says out of nothingness, kaboom there it is. Are those really 2 different stories?

And then there’s dark matter/energy. Scientific estimates vary, but they hover around the theory that 90% of what makes up the universe, we can’t see, except for how it affects the things we can see. God says there is another realm that we can’t see, other than how it affects what we can see. And He wants His 10% back. Again, are these really unrelated?

God also says that someday He will speak this universe out of existence. Paul describes that moment, saying the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Think of what results when the atom is split – intense heat and fire.

Now, the interesting thing is, that we don’t see the lake of fire appear until right after this present earth and heavens are de-created. Could it be that the de-creation of our universe creates the lake of fire?

Could it be that for those who loved this world more than Him, God lets them have it in its natural state apart from Him?

 

[Magenta]

Well, that's pretty much how it works.

No, it is not. A person is punished even when punishment ends. That is in fact how it works.

Let me give you an example, since you seem blind to the rational logic and sense of what is being said.
You were likely punished for something as a child. Is your punishment for that transgression ongoing to this day, and will you be punished for this forever? According to you, if it is not, you were not punished. According to you, punishment is only valid if it lasts forever after. Even sentencing someone to death and carrying out a death sentence on that person is not punishment in your view. Weird! Somehow, once that person is dead, they have no longer been punished. You change the word from punishment to punishing. You oughtn't. It's not what Scripture says.

The idea of being punished while not existing is not logical. Maybe you could explain how to punish someone who doesn't exist.

Maybe you could explain how punishing someone with a death sentence is not punishment.

Are you aware of what the literal Hebrew actually says? "dying, you shall die". Do know why there are two deaths for Adam and Eve?

Yes, I am. Yet people deny that the second death is the end of man as articulated in Scripture.

Huh? Haven't you read what Paul wrote about physical death? Was he afraid of death? Hardly. He looked forward to it.

HUH??? We are speaking of the fear of death non-believers have.

Here's the bottom line. Is there a verse that says souls will die, cease to exist?

God alone is immortal. Life ever after is attained by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Our God is a Consuming Fire

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, that's pretty much how it (punishment) works.

No, it is not. A person is punished even when punishment ends. That is in fact how it works.

A "fact", you say? Really. Then please share this fact.

Let me give you an example, since you seem blind to the rational logic and sense of what is being said.

Thank you for that.

You were likely punished for something as a child. Is your punishment for that transgression ongoing to this day, and will you be punished for this forever?

According to you, if it is not, you were not punished.

OK, you are still working on some failed communication of what I said. Yes, I was punished for disobeying my parents as a child. A lot of times. And the punishment ENDED. Your example totally misses any "factual" evidence.

Does punishment hurt? Can it be uncomfortable? Yes x 2. It was designed to be that way. (fact)

When the punishment ents, the hurt/uncomfortableness ends. That's how it works. If you committed a crime that puts you in jail for 1 month (you seem too nice to commit a crime that would require more than 1 month in jail), you would obviously be uncomfortalble, lonely, etc. Very inconvenient, to say the least. Now, when the sentence is up and you are out, you are FREE from all the discomfort, pain, hurt, and inconvenience of being in jail. iow, the punishment has ENDED. That's how it works.

Now, if you were Muslim, your punishment might be having your hand cut off. THEN your punishment would be ongoing. How would you explain that from biblical ideas?

According to you, punishment is only valid if it lasts forever after.

Wow. You keep making all these wild statements that I never made. When the Bible describes the punishment for unbelievers, it is described as being forever. Matt 25:46 and REc 20:10, followed by the rest of the chapter, 11-15.

Even sentencing someone to death and carrying out a death sentence on that person is not punishment in your view.

I'm getting kind of tired by all your misstatements. I never said that.

Weird!

yeah, it's weird how you repeatedly make these wild statements about what I have said when I never said them.

Somehow, once that person is dead, they have no longer been punished.

Physical death is removal from this earth. Capiche? When they die, they are no longer ON earth. Now they are in a different realm and in a different issue altogether. They are in the waiting room or holding cell for God's punishment.

You make the mistake of comparing apples to oranges.

You change the word from punishment to punishing. You oughtn't. It's not what Scripture says.

Please tell me how there a difference materially.

Maybe you could explain how punishing someone with a death sentence is not punishment.

OK, I'm going to type R.E.A.L. S.L.O.W. and L.O.U.D. so you can H.E.A.R. M.E. ok? It IS punishment. Got it already?

Yes, I am. Yet people deny that the second death is the end of man as articulated in Scripture.

OK, why are we now talking about other people? This is between you and me. It's not a 3-way. I don't care what other people deny.

The LOF is described as the SECOND DEATH because of the resurrection of the unsaved. What will die AGAIN is their physical body when they enter the LOF.

HUH??? We are speaking of the fear of death non-believers have.

You didn't make that clear, so I already did. I guess you missed it.

God alone is immortal. Life ever after is attained by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Do you really think I don't know that? btw, speaking of "immortal", how do you understand "imperishable", as Peter used it?
[/QUOTE]

 

[Runningman]

What is obvious is that it will be eternal punishment.

Correct. Destroyed forever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Again, since there will be a physical resurrection of unbelievers, it will be their resurrected body that will perish, die and be destroyed when their body is cast into the LOF.

You can disagree, but you cannot refute that fact.

It’s called the second death for a reason. In hell the soul and body can be destroyed. If they’re resurrected from that then killed again that would be a second death.

The immortality of the human soul is conditional upon God’s will. Didn’t you know only God alone is immortal?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What is obvious is that it will be eternal punishment.

Correct. Destroyed forever.
Nope. Once no longer existing, there can be NO punishment.

Are you not aware that "punishment" includes some form of pain/suffering/discomfort/inconvenience/etc? None of those things will be experienced by someone who is no longer there. Illogical. And you still haven't tried to explain how you see that as logical.

If a person's soul can no longer exist, you are unable to inflict any punishment on that soul. That is impossible. There's NOTHING to feel or experience.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Oooh, ya got me! Not.

olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does notimply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Since it is a biblical fact that all unbelievers will be resurrected again, per Acts 24:15, and the LOF is described as the "second death", 2 Thess 1:9 may be teaching that the body will undergo death for eternity.

Again, in order to be "punished", it MUST be experienced. That IS how it works.

From: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment

Definition of punishment

1: the act of punishing
2a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

All of this REQUIRES experiencing, or it ISN'T a punishment. That's what you guys (and gal) are missing. And you can't give an example of a punishment where the person doesn't exist.

Souls that no longer exist do NOT experience anything. They can't be punished because they AREN'T there.

There is absolutely no logic to your position.

It’s called the second death for a reason. In hell the soul and body can be destroyed.

No verse supports your claim here. "can be" isn't "shall be". When a person dies, their body goes to the grave, and their soul goes to a compartment in Hades, awaiting the GWT judgment. Before the judgment, their bodies are resurrected and then they are cast into the LOF, where their body DIES again.

If they’re resurrected from that then killed again that would be a second death.

It is the body that will be resurrected and killed again. Not the soul.

There are no verses that say the soul will be killed, or will cease to exist. Instead, we have verses that speak of eternal punishment, and being tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The immortality of the human soul is conditional upon God’s will.

I don't believe anyone would argue with this. But so what? God has told us the condition of unbelievers; tormented day and night for ever and ever because of their eternal punishment.

The word "eternal" means TIME unending.

Didn’t you know only God alone is immortal?

I know the verse. Didn't you know that Peter describes the resurrection bodies of believers to be imperishable?

Can you explain the difference between imperishable and immortal, as far as from the point of receiving the glorified body?

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
What is obvious is that it will be eternal punishment.

Are you not aware that "punishment" includes some form of pain/suffering/discomfort/inconvenience/etc? None of those things will be experienced by someone who is no longer there. Illogical. And you still haven't tried to explain how you see that as logical.

If a person's soul can no longer exist, you are unable to inflict any punishment on that soul. That is impossible. There's NOTHING to feel or experience.


Oooh, ya got me! Not.

olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does notimply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Since it is a biblical fact that all unbelievers will be resurrected again, per Acts 24:15, and the LOF is described as the "second death", 2 Thess 1:9 may be teaching that the body will undergo death for eternity.

Again, in order to be "punished", it MUST be experienced. That IS how it works.

From: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment

Definition of punishment

1: the act of punishing
2a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

All of this REQUIRES experiencing, or it ISN'T a punishment. That's what you guys (and gal) are missing. And you can't give an example of a punishment where the person doesn't exist.

Souls that no longer exist do NOT experience anything. They can't be punished because they AREN'T there.

There is absolutely no logic to your position.


No verse supports your claim here. "can be" isn't "shall be". When a person dies, their body goes to the grave, and their soul goes to a compartment in Hades, awaiting the GWT judgment. Before the judgment, their bodies are resurrected and then they are cast into the LOF, where their body DIES again.


It is the body that will be resurrected and killed again. Not the soul.

There are no verses that say the soul will be killed, or will cease to exist. Instead, we have verses that speak of eternal punishment, and being tormented day and night for ever and ever.


I don't believe anyone would argue with this. But so what? God has told us the condition of unbelievers; tormented day and night for ever and ever because of their eternal punishment.

The word "eternal" means TIME unending.


I know the verse. Didn't you know that Peter describes the resurrection bodies of believers to be imperishable?

Can you explain the difference between imperishable and immortal, as far as from the point of receiving the glorified body?

Death is an eternal punishment. Once the punishment has been completed it’s forever irreversible. An additional punishment cannot be applied to them after death.

The word punishment in Matthew 25:46 is a singular noun. So there is only one punishment and it’s death. Let’s be clear, this does not say “punishing” which is an adjective and that would mean the punishment is open-ended and would never need to end since the person(s) being referred to would always be in state of having eternal punishing applied to them.

I don’t like getting into semantics, but I see it’s necessary for you in this case.

We also must consider the body of Bible verses where there’s no references to or examples of all unbelievers in eternal conscious torment.

I believe there are over two dozen verses relating to the fate of the wicked as being destroyed or put to death.

 

[sheborn2x]

Your whole argument hangs on punishment needing to be ongoing for it to be considered punishment. That is simply not logical. Perhaps you believe our whole justice system has it wrong, too, with death being the severest from of punishment reserved only for the worst of criminals. Oh, wait. You do not believe death is punishment at all, since once someone is dead the punishment has become null and void. Odd, since death is what God proclaimed would be the consequence of disobedience to Adam and Eve, and this same pronouncement is made throughout Scripture from beginning to end: the wages of sin is death, and the wicked shall be be destroyed. Some say, too, that death is nothing to fear. That also flies in the face of what Scripture explicitly states.

I think the point that FreeGrace2 is making (in reply to your earlier assertion) is that if you believe that death is the ultimate punishment, what "effects" of death would be eternal? Once one dies (the ultimate punishment according to you), what effects or consequences would come after death?

God proclaimed that the "wages" of sin is death. This is the physical death to which the other user refers, which is mentioned in Hebrews 9:27: “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.”

The judgment which comes “after” one "physically" dies "once" is elaborated on in Rev 20:11-12. It’s referred to as the White Throne Judgment. “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it… And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God… and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” (Note the “dead” were “judged” although you state death is the ultimate punishment.)

Rev 20:14 talks about a “second death.” Those not found in the book of life do not “physically” die a second time, but after physical death and judgment, they will be cast into the lake of fire (i.e. hell).

The casting into the lake of fire aka the second death is the "punishment" after the physical death and judgment. And, “Scripture explicitly states” in Matthew 25:41&46 that this punishment will be eternal. “Then he will say to those on his left… you are cursed into the eternal fire… Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I understand the above may not be logical to you. I no longer try to rationalize God’s omniscience. Isaiah 55:9&11: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than you thoughts.”