And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[FreeGrace2]

Good job. Now you’re defending quotes by atheists.

Uh, I quoted Psa 14:1 and 53:1 that quoted atheists. Why do you have a problem with quoting what the Bible quotes?

Getting a little too close for comfort?

Let me ask you this, then, since you seem so keen to say anything but condemn them. Do you agree with them?

Are you kidding? The Bible rightly calls them FOOLS for saying there is no God.

Not only does God exist, He has given mankind EVERY OPPORTUNITY, beginning with His Creation, to seek Him and find Him.

So, those who don't care or seek their own opinion of what/who God is, will justly be tormented day and night for ever and ever, just as the Bible says.

 

[Runningman]

That cartoon probably came from some atheist's mocking of what the Bible teaches. Don't you know atheists hate everything about the Bible. that post reveals their mocking of the Bible.


I see. So then, atheists have it right and the VAST majority of evangelical believers screwed totally up. Yeah, sure.

As to the ridiculous notion that God wouldn't be "humane" if He did implement ECT, have you missed the fact that "humane" refers to how humans act? God does not act like we do. He is far ABOVE mere humans.

And as to being fair, He's perfectly fair. Rom 1:19-21 teaches that God HAS REVEALED His divine power and attributes to everyone, so that no one has any excuse for NOT recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him.

Bur, there are many, like the fool atheists (Psa 14:1, 53:1), who still claim "there is no God". They have no excuse.

Then, there are unbelievers like Cornelius (Acts 10), who DO recognize Creator God and he sought God through prayers and alms giving.

God responds to positive volition and sent an angel to tell him to go get Peter who would bring a message by which he would be SAVED (Acts 11:14).

Cornelius is one of many who condemns the fool atheists who claim "there is no God".

So perfect God is PERFECTLY JUST to send ALL unbelievers to the LOF and ECT for ever.

You have no excuse for the beast and FP to have ECT for ever but not the rest of the unbelievers. And there is no verse that teaches that.

You’re seeing a single verse that says eternal torment for two people, I’m seeing a plethora of verses that say those wicked people perish, are destroyed, or have death; many ways of saying the same thing. You also noted at one point that literal fire cannot effect an immaterial soul.

I’ll just stick with what the Bible confirms. You’re free to assume as much as you want, as well as the majority of evangelicals, but I have no assumptions.

 

[HeIsHere]

Annihilationism doctrine contradicts God and charges him with cruelty.
In effect it is man making himself a god. It has no place in The Church.

So true, and make no mistake the annihilationists are the ones who deny context and the word meanings as they were originally understood by the writers.

The very word annihilate is of Latin origin , coming from "ex nihilo" from nothing.

ex nihilo

Latin, literally "out of nothing," from ex "out of" (see ex-) + nihilo, ablative of nihil "nothing" (see nil).

Interesting, not Hebrew word, Roman hmmm....

When the Hebrews used "utterly destroy" it always referred to physical destruction of some type for example.

Jer 50:26 And utterly destroy judgment is uttered against Babylon

If Babylon no longer existed, not made non existent this would mean even the ruble would be gone.

This doctrine is quite ridiculous really.

And the whole "only God has immortality" proof text is another cherry picked verse with no regard to the meaning and intent of the context

I understand your exasperation because this is such an obviously false doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You’re seeing a single verse that says eternal torment for two people

Just how many verses does it take to PROVE that human beings will experience ECT? 5? 10? 1 million?

I’m seeing a plethora of verses that say those wicked people perish, are destroyed, or have death

And I have AGREED with EVERY ONE OF THESE VERSES. Our difference is that what is being described is what will occur to the resurrected yet mortal physical body of the unbeliever.

many ways of saying the same thing.

And I AGREE. btw, in most of the verses you have quoted do NOT refer to the LOF but simply physical death anyway. And yes, when the body dies, it will perish, it will be destroyed, without a doubt. And unbelievers will experience a SECOND DEATH of their body after the GWT judgment.

You also noted at one point that literal fire cannot effect an immaterial soul.

Why would it? The soul is immaterial. What's to destroy? But you can't say. All you have is presumption.

I’ll just stick with what the Bible confirms.

You have confirmed that you are really inconsistent. Since we KNOW there will be 2 humans who WILL BE tormented for ever and ever (that's ECT), there is no reason to presume none of the other humans will get ECT.

You’re free to assume as much as you want,

No, I don't do what you do.

as well as the majority of evangelicals, but I have no assumptions.

It's called presumption, actually.

 

[Runningman]

So true, and make no mistake the annihilationists are the ones who deny context and the word meanings as they were originally understood by the writers.

The very word annihilate is of Latin origin , coming from "ex nihilo" from nothing.

ex nihilo

Latin, literally "out of nothing," from ex "out of" (see ex-) + nihilo, ablative of nihil "nothing" (see nil).

Interesting, not Hebrew word, Roman hmmm....

When the Hebrews used "utterly destroy" it always referred to physical destruction of some type for example.

Jer 50:26 And utterly destroy judgment is uttered against Babylon

If Babylon no longer existed, not made non existent this would mean even the ruble would be gone.

This doctrine is quite ridiculous really.

And the whole "only God has immortality" proof text is another cherry picked verse with no regard to the meaning and intent of the context

I understand your exasperation because this is such an obviously false doctrine.

That’s really not it. It’s actually the word perish means destroy utterly.

Take the word perish in John 3:16 for example:

G622. apollumi
Source (Strong's Concordance at BibleHub)

​

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

The English word, annihilate means the same thing:

Annihilate - (Source Cambridge Dictionary)
to destroy something completely so that nothing is left

Annihilate- (Source Merriam-Webster)
to cause to cease to exist : to do away with entirely so that nothing remains

So the way perish, that is to be utterly destroyed, is understood it to cease to exist. If you disagree then can you cite any reasons why?

 

[Runningman]

Just how many verses does it take to PROVE that human beings will experience ECT? 5? 10? 1 million?

It requires one verse and then it’s required for it to be literally stated that all human beings (who are not saved) will experience eternal torment. It also can’t contradict the rest of scripture.

how many verses will it take for you to understand the unsaved are destroyed? Do you want to see over two dozen of them again?

The fact of the matter is you just don’t want to believe it. You’ve probably been going to church for decades and can’t comprehend you totally missed this very plainly-stated fact in the Bible. You find a bit of consolation that the majority of evangelicals believe as you do, but don’t be so sure. The majority is way off on this point.

And I have AGREED with EVERY ONE OF THESE VERSES. Our difference is that what is being described is what will occur to the resurrected yet mortal physical body of the unbeliever.

And I agree with all of the verses you posted, what I don’t agree with is your additional commentary that is included with every Bible verse.

And I AGREE. btw, in most of the verses you have quoted do NOT refer to the LOF but simply physical death anyway. And yes, when the body dies, it will perish, it will be destroyed, without a doubt. And unbelievers will experience a SECOND DEATH of their body after the GWT judgment.

The lake of fire doesn’t need to be called the lake of fire if the description of what happens in the lake of fire, death, matches what the verse says. That’s how we avoid things like the 3rd death or even 4th death. We know there are two deaths so that’s how it should always be understood.

You have confirmed that you are really inconsistent. Since we KNOW there will be 2 humans who WILL BE tormented for ever and ever (that's ECT), there is no reason to presume none of the other humans will get ECT.

I know the unsaved won’t because the rest of the Bible says they are destroyed. Then suddenly Revelation 20 talks about 3 persons who aren’t destroyed, that’s pretty specific. That means they are an exception to the general rule of perishing, if it’s literal.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That’s really not it. It’s actually the word perish means destroy utterly.

And it refers to the resurrected and mortal body of the unbeliever.

Take the word perish in John 3:16 for example:

No argument. ALL unbelievers will be resurrected. And their resurrected bodies will most definitely perish when they are thrown into the LOF. No one argues this.

So the way perish, that is to be utterly destroyed, is understood it to cease to exist.

Without a doubt, the resurrected bodies of unbelievers will surely cease to exist.

 

[Runningman]

When the Hebrews used "utterly destroy" it always referred to physical destruction of some type for example.

Jesus Messiah trumps everyone else in the Bible (and outside the Bible for that matter) and this is what He said using the word perish/destroy in Matthew 10:28 (also found in John 3:16) with the word soul in context:

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

 

[FreeGrace2]

It requires one verse

And . . . you have have that one verse.

and then it’s required for it to be literally stated that all human beings (who are not saved) will experience eternal torment.

What "rule book" are you quoting?

It also can’t contradict the rest of scripture.

It's NOT. All references to perish, destroy, and death refer to the human body and you can't prove otherwise. Even most of your verses weren't even referring to the LOF.

how many verses will it take for you to understand the unsaved are destroyed?

I have NEVER doubted that the resurrected bodies of unbelievers WILL BE DESTROYED.

Do you want to see over two dozen of them again?

No, thank you. And they ALL refer to the resurrected but mortal body.

The fact of the matter is you just don’t want to believe it.

Don't do that projection thing with me. You are the one who won't believe that it is the body of the resurrected unbeliever that gets destroyed.

btw, I previously asked for verses that show God resurrecting both body and soul of unbelievers. Haven't you found any yet?

You’ve probably been going to church for decades and can’t comprehend you totally missed this very plainly-stated fact in the Bible.

That is just plain dumb statement.

And I agree with all of the verses you posted, what I don’t agree with is your additional commentary that is included with every Bible verse.

Doesn't matter. You have no prove/evidence that souls will be destroyed. We KNOW that unbelievers' bodies will be resurrected before the GWT judgment and then cast into the LOF, so it is obvious that all mentions of perishing, being destroyed, etc refer to that body.

The lake of fire doesn’t need to be called the lake of fire if the description of what happens in the lake of fire, death, matches what the verse says.

This verse is far from clear. The Bible calls it LOF so that's enough for me. And the Bible also describes it as the second death. And we KNOW that since the body will be resurrected and then cast into the LOF, it means two physical body deaths.

That’s how we avoid things like the 3rd death or even 4th death. We know there are two deaths so that’s how it should always be understood.

Since I believe the Bible that the bodies of unbelievers will be resurrected and that they will be destroyed when cast into the LOF, the second death is very clear to me.

I know the unsaved won’t because the rest of the Bible says they are destroyed.

Their resurrected bodies, for sure.

Then suddenly Revelation 20 talks about 3 persons who aren’t destroyed, that’s pretty specific.

No kidding. And the FIRST 3 creatures, in fact. And what immediately follows is the GWT judgment, where ALL the rest of the unbelievers get the SAME FATE.

That means they are an exception to the general rule of perishing, if it’s literal.

Please show me any "exception" to support your theory that the souls of all the rest of the unbelievers will "cease to exist" when cast into the LOF.

But, you don't have any, do you. Or you would have filled your posts with the verse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus Messiah trumps everyone else in the Bible and this is what He said using the word perish/destroy in Matthew 10:28 with the word soul in context:

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

I'm always happy to remind you that "able to" does NOT mean "WILL". Never did.

 

[Runningman]

I'm always happy to remind you that "able to" does NOT mean "WILL". Never did.

God has the option to do anything. Jesus mentioned it though, in contrast to what only humans can do. I’ll leave it at that.

 

[HeIsHere]

That’s really not it. It’s actually the word perish means destroy utterly.

Take the word perish in John 3:16 for example:

G622. apollumi
Source (Strong's Concordance at BibleHub)

​

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

The English word, annihilate means the same thing:

Annihilate - (Source Cambridge Dictionary)
to destroy something completely so that nothing is left

Annihilate- (Source Merriam-Webster)
to cause to cease to exist : to do away with entirely so that nothing remains

So the way perish, that is to be utterly destroyed, is understood it to cease to exist. If you disagree then can you cite any reasons why?

"Son of Man came to seek and to save that which is lost (destroyed)" (Luke 19:10) is the key to the meaning of apollumi.

This Bible passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus, who was lost (destroyed).
Because he was lost (destroyed), he was ready to be found and saved.

Why would God seek to save that which was annihilated?

 

[HeIsHere]

Jesus Messiah trumps everyone else in the Bible (and outside the Bible for that matter) and this is what He said using the word perish/destroy in Matthew 10:28 (also found in John 3:16) with the word soul in context:

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

And what is the nature of the destruction?

Destruction is a relative term so you understand that?

 

[Runningman]

"Son of Man came to seek and to save that which is lost (destroyed)" (Luke 19:10) is the key to the meaning of apollumi.

This Bible passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus, who was lost (destroyed).
Because he was lost (destroyed), he was ready to be found and saved.

Why would God seek to save that which was annihilated?

Destroyed is the correct interpretation of Luke 19:8-10:

Luke 19:8
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

By repenting, which is what Jesus came to get people to do, salvation came to Zacc.

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Zacc. went from him being a foregone conclusion that he was going to be destroyed to having salvation based on his repentance. That’s how it goes.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Zacc. wasn’t literally destroyed right then at that moment.

Luke 5:32
32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[HeIsHere]

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

So this makes sense to you? .....

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was annihilated.

You know this is quite absurd right?

 

[FreeGrace2]

God has the option to do anything. Jesus mentioned it though, in contrast to what only humans can do. I’ll leave it at that.

OK. No one has said that God can't kill souls. But the Bible NEVER says He will. He certainly kills bodies.

 

[Runningman]

OK. No one has said that God can't kill souls. But the Bible NEVER says He will. He certainly kills bodies.

Well let’s flip it the other direction. He said He is able to destroy the body too. You’re saying the body is certainly destroyed. Where is the body guaranteed to be destroyed?

 

[HeIsHere]

OK. No one has said that God can't kill souls. But the Bible NEVER says He will. He certainly kills bodies.

It is almost comical, >>> death means annihilate, destroy means annihilate, perish means annihilate, lost means annihilate.


When a doctrine goes to these absurd lengths something is wrong.

 

[Runningman]

So this makes sense to you? .....

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was annihilated.

You know this is quite absurd right?

Yes it makes sense to me. You’re the one arguing against scripture now and calling it absurd. You know, words have meaning. That’s why the definition of lost, which is the same as perish, means certainty of death.

G622. apollumi
Source (Strong's Concordance at BibleHub)

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

 

[Runningman]

It is almost comical, >>> death means annihilate, destroy means annihilate, perish means annihilate, lost means annihilate.


When a doctrine goes to these absurd lengths something is wrong.

It also has the connotation that death is certain. Hence why Zacc. needed to repent. Surprised that’s comical to you. Good to know.