Age of Marriage

[apwall21]

People have bad habits and baggage no matter how hard they try. IOW everyone becomes their parents and everyone believes that they are going to do better than their parents. Both are true....obviously these things aren't congruent.

Because people make choices based on the sum total of experiences they have had. And here we have a pair of teens who have had poor parental role models to follow desiring to now perpetrate the same on an innocent baby. Not enough experience that comes with age to do better.

This is half a sentence from humanism's theory that education can save us.

There are plenty of adoptive parents available with long stable histories, resources of finances and families that are extensive....providing education, love, stability, and nurture that teen parents simply can't.
Which is better for the child?

King David had a long history of doing right, until he didn't. Mary was a teen. Age of the parent, even the person, doesn't define how much love they will give. And those older minds will still be available, in the form of Grandparents.

Children aren't accessories. They aren't an addition to a glamorous life. They stop being cute when they turn 13.

13? bout 13 years longer than most parents think at 3am with a screaming infant.

The statistics for teen parents are lousy....the common thing is that by the time the state catches up with the teen mother or father (usually one of the two has abandoned the situation by this point) being an inadequate parent and steps in the child is placed in foster care and is abused by state agencies afterwards....the child has severe mental health issues from the poor parenting and "abandonment " by their parents and eventually the child "graduates" to the involuntary hotel....

So because we've built a culture that devalues young adults in everything, calling them Minors where God designed Adults (biologically defined, which is Nature, which beats the heck out of Humanism), we must continue that for the Church?

Life never works according to plan.

...

What happens if he decides "he can't deal with this" and moves away? Joins the military to get an education but never returns like he says he is going to....

Or her family decides to leave the area....to get daughter away from that boy and his influences.....neither he nor she can do anything about it. (Seen that happen too)

These are concerns based in fear, not in talking or dealing with the individuals as though they are (ought) to be responsible. Spoken as though they are BAD because they sinned in this way. Everyone is bad, because we are in a fallen world, we are ALL sinners. Our goal as a church is to facilitate the moving of the Holy Spirit in a fallen world, and care for the members that God has given us shared Jurisdiction over in Spirit.

Marriage is difficult enough...insta-families make it near impossible for thirty-somethings....now teenagers are going to be better at this?

Really?

No, nobody is "better" at being a parent, except maybe parents with multiple kids, and frankly, that's just summing the basics of necessities, mostly. You get better at getting food in them at the same time, getting the clothes cleaned every couple days, getting them to bed reasonable hours, trading who gets up for what kind of event... As for actual Rearing, Education of the Soul, Love and Relationship, it's an individually experienced shared journey. But if you want to speak purely biologically, Yes. Teen children (admittedly late teen) are statistically healthier. The older the parents, the worse the medical outcome "odds" if we're going to look only at natural discussion. By the time a woman is 30 her chance of having a medical disability in her child is, if I recall 1 in 3?

The question that bothers me is if they are given to Spiritual Union, and if breaking that is asking them to commit Another sin? If they are both claiming Christianity, if that is not a place to have them take responsibility for each other, with a community behind them in support? Is giving up the care of your offspring, when there is plenty of food, and possibly love, but the life may be worldly poor, really what God would want for these two and the child?
So far, you've given all the failures that couples make when communities don't back them, or when communities allow Divorce, despite Jesus himself scolding the Pharisees and Laywers for Moses's failure on this.
What happens when the entire church decides to take this on, as we might with any other sinner?

 

[Beckie]

This is half a sentence from humanism's theory that education can save us.

Pro_22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. This is education correct?

 

[apwall21]

Pro_22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. This is education correct?

So what happened with Solomon that he lost favor with God? Did David not train him properly?

 

[Beckie]

So what happened with Solomon that he lost favor with God? Did David not train him properly?

You choose to challenge God i respect Him. You talk in circles which goes no where .

 

[apwall21]

You choose to challenge God i respect Him. You talk in circles which goes no where .

Oh no. I choose Jesus over the wisdom of Solomon from the OT. The Law and Prophets until John, and now the Kingdom. I like my King Jesus.

 

[Beckie]

Oh no. I choose Jesus over the wisdom of Solomon from the OT. The Law and Prophets until John, and now the Kingdom. I like my King Jesus.

All Scripture is of God .
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Again the circles i have read a few of your postings in the other thread. You mock His Word which is mocking God the Son.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[apwall21]

All Scripture is of God .
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Again the circles i have read a few of your postings in the other thread. You mock His Word which is mocking God the Son.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Yup, all scripture is inspired. And until John, the only way to God was Deeds. No more Deeds. As for mocking God's word, you accuse me wrongly.

 

[JohnDB]

These teens as you have described them, aren't old enough yet to be gainfully employed.
How can teens support a baby when they can't support themselves?

It's not everyone else's responsibility to buy diapers, formula. Clothes. Food. And housing. Supporting another family is not about Supporting them financially....

It's lending a voice of encouragement and emotional support for the kids when they don't respect their parents. Because when they see that everyone else does, they adjust their attitude. Teen parents simply don't have gravitas and respect in the community yet.
Getting good marks in school is not the same as getting involved in a good career path or having the respect of coleges at work.

Love is not just attention for a child....it's doing so much more than that. It's providing the child with the opportunities so that they can have a rich and rewarding life.
Not eaking out a living...unable to join intermural sports or play music or get involved with a hundred million things simply from a lack of financial resources.
A doctors office visit for the usual sniffles for a baby is like $200....drugs are more$$. Babies usually go a lot when they are young. Then comes the clothes that they don't wear for long. Shoes 3 times a year for several years until they only need 2 pairs a year.

Breaking arms and legs and fingers are normal for rough and tumble boys....and parents needed to be seen being social and having married friends have dinner and activities as well. Kids learn by watching parents. More than by any lesson in school or lecture.

How is a child going to react when they finally get to go to kindergarten but daddy is getting his first job? What is that going to teach him?

 

[JohnDB]

Also let's talk about Mary, mother of Jesus....
During a time period when the average life expectancy was 45-55.

At 14 Mary had already lived ⅓ of her life span. Today's lifespans are 90 years on average. People do live to their respective lifespans. And more recent studies have concluded that she was at least 17-19 because Joseph was out of town on construction jobs.

By this point Mary was more than independent enough because she was taught and respected enough by her peers. Marriage isn't learning to lean on others for support....it's being independent but giving of your surpluses to another...so much that the two become one.

You can't eat love for dinner. You can't wear love when it's cold outside....or turn it on when it's hot.

Love doesn't buy shoes...

Love is patient
As in waiting to make children until you can provide material goods for them.

Love is kind
As in giving children toys instead of coal for Christmas even when they have misbehaved.

Love keeps no record of wrong
Meaning when a child persists in doing wrong time after time of getting in trouble (for years) you still lovingly discipline them.

Besides....one day children leave home and they only remember every mistake (real or imagined) their parents made and the Netflix password.

 

[apwall21]

These teens as you have described them, aren't old enough yet to be gainfully employed.
How can teens support a baby when they can't support themselves?

It's not everyone else's responsibility to buy diapers, formula. Clothes. Food. And housing. Supporting another family is not about Supporting them financially....

It's lending a voice of encouragement and emotional support for the kids when they don't respect their parents. Because when they see that everyone else does, they adjust their attitude. Teen parents simply don't have gravitas and respect in the community yet.
Getting good marks in school is not the same as getting involved in a good career path or having the respect of coleges at work.

Love is not just attention for a child....it's doing so much more than that. It's providing the child with the opportunities so that they can have a rich and rewarding life.
Not eaking out a living...unable to join intermural sports or play music or get involved with a hundred million things simply from a lack of financial resources.
A doctors office visit for the usual sniffles for a baby is like $200....drugs are more$$. Babies usually go a lot when they are young. Then comes the clothes that they don't wear for long. Shoes 3 times a year for several years until they only need 2 pairs a year.

Breaking arms and legs and fingers are normal for rough and tumble boys....and parents needed to be seen being social and having married friends have dinner and activities as well. Kids learn by watching parents. More than by any lesson in school or lecture.

How is a child going to react when they finally get to go to kindergarten but daddy is getting his first job? What is that going to teach him?

They can't get full time "wage jobs" per the US codes, but they can be employed. And they will be old enough to get full time under exceptions soon.
Not having gravitas isn't relevant to the design God gave us in union. This is our suppositions, and our prejudices, not what God himself put into the form. And having a good career path doesn't require graduation, considering how many are graduating without being able to read.
Both families have enough money to sponsor this couple, their grandparents are in the community, so this would be 3 generations of "parents" for the new child. Both parents are athletic, so terrible bodily deformities are unlikely, as are easily broken bones.
"What is going to teach him?" I don't quite understand this query. The young man would necessarily be working immediately. That you find this disdainful is not relevant to whether it's responsible to the situation.
The sin has consequences, you've alluded to this multiple times. Why would these parents suddenly be free from the consequences so they can be "rich" as the world sees it? They will be rich in another way, they will have their own kin, and each other, and an avoidance of Adultery/Fornication.

 

[apwall21]

Also let's talk about Mary, mother of Jesus....
During a time period when the average life expectancy was 45-55.

Stop right there. The jews had a saying, that a man who died before 50 had his soul cut off. Kings died earlier because they died in combat and by assassination. Plenty of people lived into their 60's and 70's.

And more recent studies have concluded

They were alone in Egypt. Perhaps they stayed in a labor camp, or maybe they stayed near a city. Being a carpenter was the height of a career, since it meant you were the builder of civilization. It was being an Engineer, and with the Hebrew codes requiring the burning of houses for mold and mildew, there were always plenty of jobs around, I'm sure. Galilee had thousands of villages, with dozens of homes. It may have been a "backwoods" but it was a suburban backwoods.

By this point Mary was more than independent enough because she was taught and respected enough by her peers.

So you're saying the community needs to respect God's design for the human body, instead of their own opinions.

Love is patient
As in waiting to make children until you can provide material goods for them.

Great plan, hindsight is 20/20 and sin has consequences.

Love is kind
As in giving children toys instead of coal for Christmas

For the love of money is the root of all evils.

Love keeps no record of wrong
Meaning when a child persists in doing wrong time after time of getting in trouble (for years) you still lovingly discipline them.

Do we? Or do we set them all aside as aliens to their own kin and Godly design, pretending that this culture's chasing of $$ = Godliness?

Besides....one day children leave home and they only remember every mistake (real or imagined) their parents made and the Netflix password.

Yes. And right now, we have two young adults and a possible infant to plan for. It is a mistake to require or suggest someone sin.

 

[JohnDB]

They can't get full time "wage jobs" per the US codes, but they can be employed. And they will be old enough to get full time under exceptions soon.
Not having gravitas isn't relevant to the design God gave us in union. This is our suppositions, and our prejudices, not what God himself put into the form. And having a good career path doesn't require graduation, considering how many are graduating without being able to read.
Both families have enough money to sponsor this couple, their grandparents are in the community, so this would be 3 generations of "parents" for the new child. Both parents are athletic, so terrible bodily deformities are unlikely, as are easily broken bones.
"What is going to teach him?" I don't quite understand this query. The young man would necessarily be working immediately. That you find this disdainful is not relevant to whether it's responsible to the situation.
The sin has consequences, you've alluded to this multiple times. Why would these parents suddenly be free from the consequences so they can be "rich" as the world sees it? They will be rich in another way, they will have their own kin, and each other, and an avoidance of Adultery/Fornication.

So everyone else is expected to pay the bill for these kids mistakes?

3 generations of family are now burdened with the cost of this child? 2 generations probably had plans financially that didn't include a grandchild at this point.

Work that isn't a regular job? What planet you living in? All movements of money are tracked and taxed anymore....even small sums. And child labor laws are still in effect. Department of Children's Services (AKA government intrusion) is now a constant in these Children's lives on an almost daily basis....there's no "work" available.

Again more modeling for the child that is not a positive.

Living off of charity is not a good role model. It's already created a multi-generational welfare model that is not sustainable.

 

[MsMediator]

How old is the girl and the "young man"?

 

[JohnDB]

How old is the girl and the "young man"?

Under 15 years of age.

 

[Beckie]

Some folks will not understand the sin of passaging judgement.

 

[apwall21]

So everyone else is expected to pay the bill for these kids mistakes?

You already blamed the Parents?
Is there a sin which doesn't effect the entire body of Christ?

3 generations of family are now burdened with the cost of this child? 2 generations probably had plans financially that didn't include a grandchild at this point.

Whose fault is that? God's for making them adults? Theirs for stumbling in a passion which they have the Least experience controlling? Theirs for being sinful like all of us??

Work that isn't a regular job? What planet you living in?

I'm not here to debate IRS codes, these are rules of men, and are OUR rules, and so we can change them to fit what we need.

And child labor laws are still in effect.

Are NOW. This is only a few decades of history, not anything that the Human Race has need to continue.

Department of Children's Services (AKA government intrusion) is now a constant in these Children's lives on an almost daily basis....there's no "work" available.

"But Pharoah has insisted, If I DON'T kill this Jewish Boy, per his orders, I'll lose my life!"
Again more modeling for the child that is not a positive.

Living off of charity is not a good role model. It's already created a multi-generational welfare model that is not sustainable.

Treating adults like they are kids is not a good role model either. Pretending that young adults are not adults, but extended children, while ignoring the very real nature of the body God gave them, doesn't seem to have helped these two either.
You return to monetary and worldy goods as the closing argument. I am ashamed at this point. Am I to teach Christ and Holiness? Or should we open a Management school and teach how to apply for loans from Usurers?

 

[Polar]

Bit late for judgement there.

And how old are "younger widows" in this context? The point is that men and women who have already been married and are in breeding years should remarry according to Paul. That's because they may otherwise be inflamed. Those "younger widows" would, necessarily, already have been married, and thus likely be older than these young adults to whom you expect sexual perfect behavior, where God has not spoken such an absurdity.


I too hate the Bible and the order which God laid out there.

You really are a trip, yah know?

And a waste of time.

 

[JohnDB]

You already blamed the Parents?
Is there a sin which doesn't effect the entire body of Christ?


Whose fault is that? God's for making them adults? Theirs for stumbling in a passion which they have the Least experience controlling? Theirs for being sinful like all of us??


I'm not here to debate IRS codes, these are rules of men, and are OUR rules, and so we can change them to fit what we need.



Are NOW. This is only a few decades of history, not anything that the Human Race has need to continue.

"But Pharoah has insisted, If I DON'T kill this Jewish Boy, per his orders, I'll lose my life!"
Again more modeling for the child that is not a positive.


Treating adults like they are kids is not a good role model either. Pretending that young adults are not adults, but extended children, while ignoring the very real nature of the body God gave them, doesn't seem to have helped these two either.
You return to monetary and worldy goods as the closing argument. I am ashamed at this point. Am I to teach Christ and Holiness? Or should we open a Management school and teach how to apply for loans from Usurers?

Deliberately sinning and expecting everyone else pay for your sin is abuse.

Spoken of in the most harshest terms by God in the scriptures....

There is no righteous stand these children who have gotten pregnant can have. Other people's sin does not negate the worse one of abuse they plan on giving everyone else.

IOW just because Tommy spilled his milk doesn't mean that Suzy has the right to assault her mother with a glass of milk. Which is the argument that you are making.

 

[JohnDB]

You really are a trip, yah know?

And a waste of time.

Oh she wants to be right....and has romanticized the situation past the point of reality.

But juveniles under 18 are likely to end up in foster homes for giving birth to children....not parenting their babies. Seen that happen very often.

Laws of the land...hard to work around. Especially for juveniles who don't even have bus fare.

 

[apwall21]

And a waste of time.

Glad I can help you with your goal.

Deliberately sinning and expecting everyone else pay for your sin is abuse.

Strange, you started this argument telling me the Parents had sinned for Convenience. Now we change to these two have sinned, Deliberately, and expected someone else to pay? (in full, Praise God for Jesus!)
But you agreed Mary could have been responsible, because the Society Around Her wasn't disrespectful and she was taught.
Spoken of in the most harshest terms by God in the scriptures.... Is Fornication, a STONE TO DEATH sin.

There is no righteous stand these children who have gotten pregnant can have. Other people's sin does not negate the worse one of abuse they plan on giving everyone else.

Now wait a minute. When you sin, do you consider what Everyone Else is going to have to undertake? Do you honestly think that all those times You lusted after a woman with your eyes, you considered what that would do to Her marriage?

IOW just because Tommy spilled his milk doesn't mean that Suzy has the right to assault her mother with a glass of milk. Which is the argument that you are making.

I'm trying to set the plans so this can be cleared up as best for all involved to avoid further sins.

Adultery/Fornication, whatever you consider this; it's a Death Sentence under the Law of Moses? If you think having your child Killed for having natural relations when they're adults, is something you prefer, then we can both return to the Law of Moses AND continue to ignore our young adults.

Again, you are the one who started this blaming the Parents, what happened to that? I don't disagree that there is more than some responsibility with the Parents AND the Community. Especially, perhaps a Church that attempts to force onto young adults something it is specifically instructed not to allow experienced adults to attempt. Living single in the throes of Passion is warned against for the Oldest of those who can reproduce.
Should we continue playing as though young adults are children?