This is leaning into the point I've been attempting to make to @FlyingDove and can be related to what I asked re: "faith" in Acts15:9 being articular = "the faith"
Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View
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This is leaning into the point I've been attempting to make to @FlyingDove and can be related to what I asked re: "faith" in Acts15:9 being articular = "the faith"
Informative again. Should be discussed without summarily dismissing it in order to fit a specific system of theology.
Yes it is from James Burton Coffman Commentaries on the Bible at studylight.org. I agree with and feel he expressed it well so I shared
you are simply ignoring the context of the whole new testament with your bias. Peter does indeed show the difference of Acts 10 :44 & 47.48 Listen to his words47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? when he said as well as we he is separating the upon from the within he came to speak the words for. It came upon them just as it did on the Apostles only on the day of Pentecost. The scriptures make it a fact it only came upon the Apostles in Acts 2:4 that is why it was such a good sign to Peter and those with him it was again A sign not the promised indwelling of Acts 2:38.39 but as on the apostles as in Acts 2:4. It had not happened anywhere after Acts 2:4 like this until this day to be a sign to Peter and those accompanying him.
Peter was sent to speak the words where as they could be saved and as soon as he began to speak God confirmed that this was Gods will Peter did not stop and say oh well God took care of it but finished with what he was sent to speak (the gospel as in Acts 2) and finished it the same with baptism in Christ name for the remission of sin and the gift of the holy ghost. It is your bias that is preventing you from seeing this.
Glad you brought Acts 15:7–9 back into the discussion, because the text you quoted actually answers the very question you keep sidestepping. Let's stay with Peter's own sequence, not categories added later.
Peter does not say God bore witness ABOUT them. He says God bore witness TO THEM by giving them the Holy Spirit. That is God's act of acceptance, not a preliminary sign.
Purifying their hearts by faith (Acts 15:9). You're asking when the cleansing happened. Peter already tied the purification to the giving of the Holy Spirit: God bore witness by giving the Holy Spirit (Vs8). God purified their hearts by faith (Vs9). The purification is linked to the Holy Spirit's giving, not to water
Just as He did to us (Acts 15:8). This is where your entire framework collapses. Peter says the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles in the same way He was given to the Jews & when Peter explains this in Acts 11:15–17, he removes every escape hatch: """The Holy Spirit fell on them as on us at the beginning.""" That is Pentecost, not a different category. Then I remembered, """You shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."""
Peter identifies Acts 10:44 as the fulfillment of Jesus' promise in Acts 1:5. """God gave them the same gift as He did unto us.""" Same gift! Same meaning! Same effect! You can invent categories like """special working of the Spirit,""" but Peter doesn't use that category. Peter interprets Acts 10 as Pentecost repeated. The same promise, same baptism, same acceptance, same purification, same sequence.
Your """articular faith""" point doesn't change the timing. You asked why faith is articular ("""the faith"""). Fine, but that doesn't move the timeline. Peter still says: God gave the Holy Spirit, God purified their hearts, God made no distinction & God did all of this before water baptism (Acts 10:44–47). The grammar doesn't change the sequence.
So let's return to the question you still haven't answered.
You quoted Acts 15 - You analyzed Greek - You discussed - "the faith." Good.
Now answer the one thing Peter forces us to answer: When did God purify them? Before water or after?
Peter says before (Acts 15:8–9) - Luke says before (Acts 10:44–47).
Your system says after. Which one should we all promote?
You're not correcting my bias, you're contradicting Peter's own explanation & then reading your system back into his words.
You say Acts 10:44 was only a sign, not salvation & that Peter is """separating the upon from the within.""" But look at what Peter actually says when he explains the event:
Acts 11:15–17, The Holy Spirit fell on them """as on us at the beginning.""" That's Pentecost, not some lesser category. Then I remembered the word of the Lord. You shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Peter identifies Acts 10:44 as the baptism with the Holy Spirit Jesus promised in Acts 1:5. God gave them the """like gift""" as He did unto us. Same gift, same meaning, same effect!
You say this was not the promised indwelling of Acts 2:38–39. Peter says it was the promised baptism of Acts 1:5, fulfilled again in Gentiles. You're not """seeing more context""" you're directly opposing Peter's own interpretation.
Then in Acts 15:8–9, Peter explains what that gift meant: """God gave them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us.""" & made no distinction between us & them, """purifying their hearts by faith."""
Peter ties three things together: God gave them the Holy Spirit. God made no distinction. God purified their hearts by faith.
That is not """upon but not within.""" That is salvation language-acceptance, purification, no distinction.
Acts 10:44–47. The Spirit falls while Peter is still speaking (Vs44). They speak in tongues & magnify God (Vs46). Peter says they have received the Holy Spirit just as we have (Vs47). Then he commands them to be baptized in water (Vs48).
Your claim that Peter is """separating the upon from the within""" is not in the text. Peter doesn't say, """They got an outward sign & later they'll get the real thing.""" He says God gave them the SAME GIFT, fulfilled the same promise, made no distinction & purified their hearts by faith & all of that happened before water.
Jesus Holy Spirit baptism is God's Salvation Proof, Guarantee & Seal (Jn 14:16, Eph 1:13-14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, 2 Tim 1:14)
So the question still stands, unchanged: In Acts 10, which baptism marks the moment God purified, saved & accepted them?
The Holy Spirit baptism Jesus performs in Vs44, or the water baptism Peter performs afterward in Vs47?
Peter says Spirit, before water. Luke records Spirit, before water.
You keep accusing me of bias, but the only way your view survives is by denying Peter's own explanation & inventing a category """sign only, not salvation""" that Peter never uses.
Lets try to put it back into context one more time. Peter was sent to Cornelius to speak the words whereby he may be saved. God knowing the Jews heart confirmed it is his will to add the gentiles in by sending the spirit with power upon the gentiles so there would be no way the Jews could disclaim it is Gods will that the gospel e preached to the gentile. This happened as Peter began to preach but it was not confirmation that God bypassed the gospel he sent Peter to preach Cornelius household still had to obey the gospel God sent to them Just as all did on the day of Pentecost. The outpouring of the spirit was not when Cornelius was purified it was when he was baptized in the name of Jesus christ just as it is for everyone today and the same as the 3000 souls on the day of Pentecost.
No one by biblical text was Purified any other way that that of Acts 2:38 that is scriptural fact the Acts 1:5&8 Acts 2:4 and Acts 10:44 were not for purification but as sign from God that his will is being done that is scriptural fact look it up
Okay I have tried to show you the difference you can not see so please answer me this. Where in scripture can you point to the happening of Acts 2:4 ever happening in the same manner other than Acts 10:44. I have not seen no recorded event as that other than those two recording so Please point them out to me. Not everyone was promised what you call the baptism of the spirit in which you point to Acts 1:5 that only I repeat ONLY happened in two events but what is PROMISED to all it the indwelling spirit in Acts 2:38,39
So now the ball is in your court if the POWER spirit of Acts 1:5&8 is for everyone show me it happening other than just Acts 2:4 and 10:44 you do that then we can study otherwise I can't take your word for it if scripture is not there to support it.
Jesus' Holy Spirit baptism is salvation proof, it's guarantee & eternal seal (Jn 14:16; Eph 1:13–14; Eph 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 2 Cor 5:5; 2 Tim 1:14).
Please answer this one question directly:
In Acts 10, which baptism marks the moment God purified, saved & accepted them?
The Holy Spirit baptism Jesus performs in Vs44. or The water baptism Peter performs afterward in v.47?
Peter says Spirit, before water. Luke records Spirit, before water. What do you say?
(Jn 14:16; Eph 1:13–14; Eph 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 2 Cor 5:5; 2 Tim 1:14).
are all talking of the indwelling spirit as promised in Acts 2:38,39 those are not the same as in Acts 1:5 Acts 2:4 and Acts 10:44 There is a difference the indwelling spirit was promised to everyone and is what is talked about in those verses you posted. The power spirit is never promised to all and was never given to all but only a select few so if that was your proof that Acts 1:5,2:4 and 10:44 happened more than twice you really do not understand what the scriptures are revealing you are reading your bias into them.
You miss the point of the outpouring it is not the saving gospel but a sign from God that what is happening is actually from God. God sent Peter to speak the WORDS whereby they might be saved He could have done it himself but he put into play the gospel preached by man so others could respond. so the purifying happened in verse 47.48as God put in play in Acts 2 it was that way and with all others to this day with Cornelius being no exception he to had to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ just as everyone from Acts 2
You're calling the Spirit's arrival ""just a sign,"" but Peter says the exact opposite. Peter says the Spirit fell ""as on us at the beginning"" (Acts 11:15), identifies it as the baptism Jesus promised (Acts 11:16) & says God purified their hearts by faith when He gave the Spirit (Acts 15:8–9).
You say purification happened at water. Peter says purification happened before water.
You say the outpouring wasn’t salvation. Peter says it was the same GIFT, same baptism, same purification, same acceptance as Pentecost.
Eternal Life is a GIFT given thru FAITH: Rom 6:23, Jn 5:24. A GIFT if GIVEN!
Peter says the Holy Spirit was GIVEN, before water. Luke records the Holy Spirit was GIVEN, before water.
You say after water. I'll side with Peter & Luke's narrative.
You are really having trouble following the context because of your bias and just keep repeating yourself but fail to show me with scripture to back your theory .
Yes Peter says as on us at the beginning Yes he is talking about the outpouring on the Jews as in Acts 2:4 and repeated only this time in Acts 10:44. That is not the seal of the holy ghost as promised in Acts 2:58,39 it was for a sign to the Jews (Peter and his accompanying followers) The whole context of Acts 10 points that out you must stay in context. Peter was sent to speak the words where as they would be saved. He had just got started when the outpouring occurred he finished his sermon and then baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ it was the FAITH (the gospel) the words of God that purified the gentiles when they heard the message Peter was sent to speak and they responded in baptism in Christ name. Context my brother context
Eternal life is given Through THE FAITH that was once and for all given (the gospel of Christ) Even Luke says
Peter and Luke both says the POWER Holy Spirit was GIVEN, before water but not the sealing of the indwelling that happened in verse 47,48 in the baptism in the name of Christ. keep it in context my friend. You are not siding with Luke or Peter but standing on your own view that is contradictory to that of Peter and Luke.
I'll deal with one issue at a time. Since you're glad we're discussing Acts15:7-9, we should be in agreement to deal with whatever we actually find there and hopefully to do so with more depth than you're putting forth.
Previously I had to do the work to dispel the notion you presented regarding what Jewish references you identified said about baptism.
Now we'll work on your above claim about witness in Acts15:8:
There are 25 instances of 'witness' in Acts. If you'd like to go through them one at a time or in bulk including each one, let me know. Here are a few findings:
God witnesses to people in Acts:
Acts5:32 the Holy Spirit is a co-witness with the Apostles to the Sanhedrin about Jesus
Acts13:22 God witnesses to Israel about King David's heart
Acts14:3 The Lord witnesses to Iconium about the truth of the Word/Message of Grace
Acts15:8 God the knower of hearts witnesses to Peter and the Jews about the Gentiles’ receipt of the Gospel
'Witness' + [Dative Construction] in Acts:
- Acts10:43 All the Prophets witness [] Jesus Christ
- The Prophets don’t witness to Jesus – The Prophets witness to men about Jesus
- Acts13:22 King David [] whom God witnessed
- God didn’t witness to David – God witnessed to Israel about David
- Acts14:3 The Lord witnessed [] the Word/Message of His Grace
- The Lord didn’t witness to His Word – The Lord witnessed to people about His Word
- Acts15:8 God the knower of hearts witnessed [] the Gentiles
- God didn’t witness to the Gentiles – God witnessed to Peter and the Jews about the Gentiles
- Acts22:5 The high priest witnessed [] Paul
- The high priest didn’t witness to Paul – The high priest witnessed to men about Paul
In all 25 instances of 'witness' in Acts, the word describes the legal deposition of evidence to establish a fact. In Acts15:8, God isn't 'witnessing' to the Gentiles to save them; He is 'witnessing' to the Jewish church to prove He is giving repentance to the Gentiles (Acts11:18). This witness was also God’s authorization for Peter to proceed with the commanded water baptism (Acts 10:48). To ignore God's witness and refuse the water baptism, as Peter concluded, would be 'withstanding/preventing/forbidding God' (Acts 11:17).
IMO the KJV and NKJ do the better work in translating Acts15:8:
KJV Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
NKJ Acts 15:8 "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
When dealing with the Greek language, the grammatical issue we're dealing with here is the Dative Case. Here are the choices Daniel Wallace provides in Greek Beyond the Basics for interpreting the Dative. If you're going to tell us what Acts15:8 is saying in regard to God's witness and what He is doing in witnessing there, you're going to have to explain your reasoning from Greek grammar (and from the way Luke writes and Peter speaks about 'witness' in Acts):The Dative Case
Overview of Dative Uses
Pure Dative Uses 140
1. Dative Indirect Object 140
2. Dative of Interest (including Advantage [commodi] and Disadvantage [incommodi]) 142
3. Dative of Reference/Respect 144
4. Ethical Dative 146
5. Dative of Destination 147
6. Dative of Recipient 148
7. Dative of Possession 149
8. Dative of Thing Possessed 151
9. Predicate Dative 152
10. Dative in Simple Apposition 152
Local Dative Uses 1531. Dative of Place 153
2. Dative of Sphere 153
3. Dative of Time (when) 155
4. Dative of Rule 157
Instrumental Dative Uses 1581. Dative of Association 159
2. Dative of Manner (or Adverbial Dative) 161
3. Dative of Means/Instrument 162
4. Dative of Agency 163
5. Dative of Measure/Degree of Difference 166
6. Dative of Cause 167
7. Cognate Dative 168
8. Dative of Material 169
9. Dative of Content 170
The Uses of the Dative After Certain Words 1711. Dative Direct Object 171
2. Dative After Certain Nouns 173
3. Dative After Certain Adjectives 174
4. Dative After Certain Prepositions 175
Let me know if I can help.
Very good informative post brother thank you for sharing your work.
Peter already answered your entire argument - TWICE - & he contradicts you point blank.
Acts 11:15–16, Peter says the Gentiles received the SAME baptism Jesus promised, the SAME thing that happened ""at the beginning"" > Pentecost. You say it wasn't the promised Acts 1:5 Holy Spirit baptism. Peter says it was.
Acts 15:8–9, Peter says God knowing the Faith in their hearts, bare them witness & GAVE them the same (Acts 1:5) promised Holy Spirit baptism He GAVE US.
Peter calls it: The SAME GIFT, same Holy Spirit baptism, the same purification & accepted them the same as He did us.
You're the only one saying it was a """different Spirit""" or """just a sign.""" Scripture doesn't make that distinction.
If Acts 10 Holy Spirit baptism wasn't salvation, then Pentecost Holy Spirit baptism wasn't either. Peter says they're the same event, same gift, same baptism.
Peter & Luke both record GIFT of the Holy Spirit was GRANTED before water. You say after water. Again, I'll stick with Peter & Luke.
Here's the twist:
If Peter says the GIFT of the Holy Spirit baptism purified & saved them before water & you say it didn't. Then your disagreement isn't with me, it's with Peter.
I have asked you more than once to show me where Acts 1:5 2:4 and 10:44 has ever happened on a daily bases . The bible only records that as the three times I mentioned and never says it is a salvational occurrence that keeps on happening. If I am wrong where do you point to to show me it did happen anywhere in the manner of the scriptures I asked about. Please stop ignoring my request for proof and provide the proof if You Have it otherwise stop repeating the same ole falsehood and get to the study.
You spent a lot of time on the direction of the witness & still never touched the content & timing of it.
Even if I grant you your ""witness about them to others"" point for the sake of argument, that doesn't help your case, it actually strengthens mine.
Acts 15:8 (KJV): God bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us.
The participle GIVING explains how God bore witness. His witness is: He GAVE them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us.
Acts 15:9: And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
The aorist PURIFYING is tied to the same action. God's giving of the Holy Spirit & His making no distinction. The PURIFICATION is linked to the GIVING of the Holy Spirit, not to later water.
You can catalog every dative category Wallace lists; it still won't move the sequence.
Luke gives:
God bore witness (by giving the Holy Spirit). God made no distinction. God PUIRIFIED their hearts by faith. All of this is Peter's explanation of what happened in Acts 10:44–47, before water.
And Peter himself interprets that event in Acts 11:15–18:
The Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning [Pentecost]. Then I remembered, You shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. God gave them the same gift as He did to us. The Jewish believers conclude: Then hath God also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life.
So even on your own terms God ""witnessing about"" the Gentiles-the witness is that:
God GAVE them the same Spirit,
God GRANTED them repentance unto life, God made no distinction, God purified their hearts by faith. ALL BEFORE WATER!
You've talked about, witness, dative & the faith.
Now answer the one thing Peter forces us all to answer:
When did God purify their hearts? Before water or after?
Peter says before (Acts 15:8–9; Acts 11:15–18). Luke says before (Acts 10:44–47).
Your system says after. Whose sequence should we promote? Peter's, or yours?
Once again, you've run from question of when God purified & accepted them & switched to how often Acts 1:5/2:4/10:44 happens. Those are two different questions.
Uniqueness doesn't mean ""not salvational."" The cross happened once. The resurrection happened once. Pentecost happened once. Their uniqueness doesn't make them less salvational. It makes them foundational.
Peter treats Pentecost & Cornelius as the same salvational event applied to 2 groups (Jews/Gentiles), not as a random sign.
Peter universalizes the promise beyond those three events.
Acts 2:39, the promise is for you, your children, and all who are afar off.
Acts 11:17–18, God gave them the same gift & the Jews conclude: Then God has granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life.
Acts 15:8–9, God gave them the Holy Spirit, made no distinction, purified their hearts by faith.
Paul later describes the same reality without wind/tongues: By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (1 Cor 12:13).
The outward phenomena (wind, tongues) are not what make it salvational; the giving of the Holy Spirit is.
Your ""daily basis"" demand is a red herring. You're asking: Show me Acts 2:4/10:44 happening every day with the same manifestations.
But Peter's argument is not: This exact manifestation happens every day.
Peter's argument is: What happened to them is the same gift, same baptism, same purification, same acceptance as what happened to us at the beginning [Pentecost].
The question is not, How often did the wind/tongues happen? The question is, What did God do when He gave the Spirit?
So let's come back again —to the one thing you still haven't answered:
Peter says God gave them the Holy Spirit, God made no distinction, God purified their hearts by faith & then they were baptized in water (Acts 10:44–48; 11:15–18; 15:8–9).
When did God purify & accept them? Before water or after?
You can talk about ""daily basis"" all you want, but until you answer that, you're not dealing with Peter. You're running from his God breathed testimony.