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A Question About Work
- Thread starter Didymous
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NoNameMcgee
Guest
maybe if she cut him off
it would make room for God to teach him a hard lesson
i dont know
but im definitely going to pray for your friend
her daughter
and the young man
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Ariel82
Guest
I would say encourage your friend to see how paying for their bills is hurting them more than helping them.
He needs some mature Christian counseling and her daughter needs lots of prayer.
He needs some mature Christian counseling and her daughter needs lots of prayer.
I agree with what you say,and I've talked to them. I've also talked to the MIL, and am still talking with her.
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Ariel82
Guest
Yes, and that is ultimately where I find comfort for my lack of understanding-if not for that of others.
Dydimous,
1 Corinthians 9 talks about it. specifically verses like these:
1Co 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
1Co 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
and these:
1Co 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
They are both pointing to the idea that it's OK for a God-appointed minister to live off of the intake (tithes, offerings) of the church instead of working (for man) to support himself... BUT.. he spends a good portion of the chapter explaining why he purposefully chose to refuse any financial support from the Corinthian church...because he didn't want anyone to question his motives.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
1 Corinthians 9 talks about it. specifically verses like these:
1Co 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
1Co 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
and these:
1Co 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
They are both pointing to the idea that it's OK for a God-appointed minister to live off of the intake (tithes, offerings) of the church instead of working (for man) to support himself... BUT.. he spends a good portion of the chapter explaining why he purposefully chose to refuse any financial support from the Corinthian church...because he didn't want anyone to question his motives.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Brother, I appreciate your input. In this case, the church isn't the financial support for the young man, but his MIL. And the reason was looking for answers was so I could have something to offer the MIL, when she asks me.
No worries. And just because there are scriptures that can be used one way or the other, ultimately all parties have to pray and find out what God specifically wants them to be doing.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Being called and to ministry means to do it as the apostles did... what they were freely given they freely gave. And they knew taking money for sharing the gospel would lead to their own abuse of the priesthood.
Matt 10 and 1Corinthians 9
Sadly most pastors conveniently overlook these chapters.. and are lost.
Matt 10 and 1Corinthians 9
Sadly most pastors conveniently overlook these chapters.. and are lost.
When we examine the Scriptures, we see that some men devoted their lives exclusively to preaching and teaching, and were supported by their churches. But not as "employees". At the same time other men worked in regular occupations and served the Lord also. Paul gave himself as an example of one who would support himself and also do the Lord's work.
Having said that, the modern system of hiring and firing pastors is not according to Scripture, and this leads to all kinds of issues. According to the New Testament, the pastors were actually the elders from within the assembly, and there was always a plurality. Those who labored in the Word and doctrine were to be compensated properly. Missionaries were to be supported by their churches and were not to ask for compensation from the unsaved.
Today anyone who does not have a Master of Divinity degree is deemed to be "unfit" to be a pastor. That too in not according to Scripture, since there are many who can qualify academically but not spiritually. So then you have "kids" wet behind the ears assigned to the role of "elder". The issue of whether they have been called and gifted to do whatever ministry they presume to do is secondary. In Scripture, the gifts and callings are primary, and academic qualifications are not even mentioned. The traditional scholasticism in the Roman Catholic Church influenced the Protestants, and then the evangelicals.
Hey Didymous,
This is a really good question.
It probably confuses some people because there are NUMEROUS different Bible principles at work here.
In areas where there are numerous principles at work, which may seem contradictory, we usually rely on WISE pastors, and wise elders, to give wise advice, and help us to navigate those different principles. But as you know, the young christian who needs a wise pastor doesn't always get one.
So what are some of the different principles at work here?
1. Everyone is supposed to work, plain and simple... especially if you expect to eat, lol.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
2. It's also ok for the leaders of the church to receive support from the congregation... for the purpose of being able to spend more time in ministry by not keeping a secular vocation.
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
There's also this verse.
Gal 6:6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches.
(These verses clearly show that if you work, you deserve to be paid for that work, and the context here is the church leadership working in ministry.)
We should keep in mind that these men are not lazy layabouts, they are working extremely diligently in ministry, and attending to the flock.
So they are STILL WORKING, they're just working at the ministry.
3. We also have a lot of criteria for point #2, and this criteria can be gleaned from numerous texts either explicitly or implicitly.
(For the criteria of what constitutes ministry, who is fit for ministry, and thus what kinds of people and work we should be supporting, look at: I Timothy 3:1-7, 5:17-22, Titus 1:5-9, Acts 6:2-4)
A. These pastors and elders who are supported should ALREADY be doing important and significant work - they should be doing so much ministry that they actually NEED MORE HOURS IN THE DAY, and so people decide to support them.
B. These people are ALREADY KNOWN and RECOGNIZED for their ministry, and for their important works, THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE COMMUNITY. (Everybody knows how much they serve God, so supporting them isn't just the idea, or prophecy, of one man.)
C. To reiterate, the support here isn't based on prophecy of what someone WILL DO, or MIGHT DO... the support is based upon what men of PROVEN CHARACTER are ALREADY DOING. These men are already proven, and already toiling in ministry.
There is no prophecy involved here. Men who HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THEMSELVES THROUGH HARD WORK IN MINISTRY are then supported by the community so they can do even more.
4. There are also some very rare situations, where God just miraculously provides for his servants in strange ways.
One example of this is Elijah being fed by ravens.
1Ki 17:4 You shall drink from the brook, and I have commanded the ravens to feed you there."
1Ki 17:5 So he went and did according to the word of the LORD. He went and lived by the brook Cherith that is east of the Jordan.
1Ki 17:6 And the ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook.
So how do we put all these principles together, and navigate all of this?
1. I think the question of the OP is cleared up in section #3 above, where we talk about the proper criteria for being a minister, and thus, who has the proper criteria for support.
I think everything gets solved right there.
2. For other issues, I think we can study all of the passages here, and compare them, and get a pretty good idea of how it all fits.
BTW, there are also passages by Paul, where he talks about REFUSING to accept support, at certain times, and preferring to maintain secular work, so he won't be beholden to certain people! So that shows there could be times it's appropriate for a pastor to even refuse support, lol. Not the kind of thing we normally hear.
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