I don't believe in a pre trib rapture ...seems like you you curse everyone who disagrees with you.
A golden key to understand the book of Revelations
- Thread starter Evmur
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I agree in part, but I also believe, if someone is believing they will see the Antichrist Beast, God will honor their faith and they WILL see him. I can't figure out why some believe this, but I have met many who do. I choose God's escape plan.
The Bride, the Church are not the only ones who enter the kingdom ... the wise virgins who are the bridal attendants also enter in and whereas it is written "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven" it is followed by "blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth."
Dear Brother, the Apostle John is seeing the spirits of the Saints who have died in Christ.
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"
They came out of the Great Tribulation - these are the Saints who have died in the Lord
The Parable of the Ten Virgins is a Parable - the 5 wise virgins are symbolic and are not literal bridal attendants.
Most completely miss what the Lord is saying in the Matthew 25:1-13 Parable.
It has to do with the Kingdom of God = Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgin = Parable.
The Kingdom of Heaven - do you know what it is?
The Parable tells us = 5 wise have been filled with the Holy Spirit which is the Oil in the Parable.
The HOLY SPIRIT is the Kingdom of Heaven - God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth.
The Holy Spirit is the Kingdom our LORD gave to us while He went to the Father.
When the LORD returns He will only receive those who have His Holy Spirit = Like Begets Like
The Gospel of John and the Book of Acts demonstrates this vividly.
yeah the rest of the book shows the churches battle on earth with Satan and the beast
[
“They came out of the Great Tribulation - these are the Saints who have died in the Lord”
amen from the time of the gospel forward they are being gathered
“They came out of the Great Tribulation - these are the Saints who have died in the Lord”
amen from the time of the gospel forward they are being gathered
i never cursed anyone and that is very wrong of you to say that
God's word is not a christian Monopoly game.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
Since when do we as 'christians' disregard these commands? Who gave us the OK to do so?
Did you understand Post #39 in 'God tried to kill Moses'
YES AMEN - When the LORD comes back - at His Second Coming.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” Matt 23
away with false doctrine and the spririt of error that speaks what God never said.
The LORD said there will be no rapture BEFORE the Resurrection = 1 Thessalonins 4:13-18 , Matthew ch24, 1 Corinthians ch15
“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”
Genesis 2:1-3
what of it ?
read Isaiah 65:17
The Lord mentioned the Sabbath Rest of the 7th Day twice - coincience? or is HE pointing to something?
The First coming of Christ completes/fulfills the 7th Day of Rest in Himself = thus HE is our Rest = Heb ch 3 ch 4
His Second Coming will also bring Rest, this time to all of Creation.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
I can't think of anyone who made the claim that Jews are forever cut off (there are very explicit lines about being grafted back in). The simple truth is that none come to the Father except through Christ.
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." - Romans 9:6-8 KJV
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [...] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:16&29 KJV
"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them [Israelites by flesh] which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they [Israelites by flesh] also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." - Romans 11:22-23 KJV
The children of the promise are counted for the seed. The seed of the promise is Christ and those in Christ. Both Gentiles and Jews were to be brought into Christ if they do not not abide in unbelief. "All Israel will be saved" means all those in Christ will be saved. The remnant of Israel to be saved is the remnant that is in Christ. The remnant of Israel in Christ is all Israel.
Paul chooses very particular wording when speaking of blindness given to Israelites that may be grafted back in. In a sense he is reflecting on his own life as Saul, when he persecuted Christians (and in turn Christ). Ultimately Christ showed mercy by a personal revelation that left Paul blind and through that he realized he had truly been blind all along. Both the spiritual and physical blindness lifted and he rose as one in Christ. It is likely that he is relating his experience to other then-antiChrist Israelites that may also experience Christ shine through their blindness, and if they do not abide in unbelief they too will become Christian and find salvation. Paul's sentiment appears to be that everyone will get a chance at salvation, and only by the mercy of God, not by works or birthright. An enemy of today may turn out to be a brother in Christ tomorrow, as was the case with Paul's own life.
Not all Jews/Israelites are saved. And the fullness of the Gentiles coming in does not necessarily mean that "100% of the saved nonIsraelite individuals throughout history must be incorporated before any Jews can be grafted back in". It means that through the blindness of Israelites, the fullness of Gentiles were brought into the fold per circumstance. Paul was only blind until such a time, and through the time of his particular blindness others would be drawn into the faith in the fullness of that circumstance (perhaps including after the blindness was lifted). The undertone in Romans 11:23 is that once blindness is lifted, not all of Israel would turn to Christ (and instead abide in unbelief). And those that did not turn to Christ would not be grafted into the tree.
It is a false doctrine to claim that the promise to Israel is different or separate to the promise given to Christ and those in Christ. The remnant of Israel that inherits the promise is the remnant of Israel in Christ. But for the sake of trying to rationalize the other side of the coin, one may argue using Romans 12:4 that different parts of the body of Christ hold different offices based on faith, and thus perhaps specific saved descendants of Israel have a specific office or offices. Granted. But we should also remember that it was a Gentile had greater faith than all of Israel in the time of Christ, before the crucifixion (Matthew 8:10). The division of offices may not be so clear cut.
As much as the blindness of Israelites may be lifted, seemingly so too this is true of Gentiles, particularly as seen in Acts. If your interpretation of rapture is that the last of the NonChristian Jews remain to witness the second coming of Christ and become converted, why would this necessarily exclusive to NonChristian Jews and not also include NonChristian Gentiles that convert and therefore rule as well at that time?
What leads you to assume your specific interpretation of rapture and the 1000 year kingdom?
so what are you saying is Christs forst coming ? His birth right ? The prophets were foretelling his appearance a long time then he’s born and arrives
is that what you are referring to as his first coming ? And then His second would be his return at the end right ?
Hello, brother @Evmur
It is written in Revelation ch. 7 that people of all nations, tongues, kindreds and people will be saved during the great tribulation:
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" - Revelation 7:9-10
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. - Revelation 7:13-14
Those vast crowds of people will be saved throughout the tribulation because the 144,000 elect will seal them in their foreheads with the Word of God at that time. Notice in chapter 9:3-5:
Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. - Revelation 9:3-5
**notice the 5-month period!
The Mark is what will marry the world to the Antichrist.
And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Luke 17:26
The people of this world will give there hand in marriage to an abomination = Beauty and the Beast.
'The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them."
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
Everyone has been conditioned to receive the Mark. Stay alert prayer and the Word. Do your research.
You are mixing up to events that John did not mix. Let's talk about chapter 7. Why did John break from his narrative of the seals between the 6th and 7th?
Have you ever watched a play that had curtains that closed between the acts of the play? What happens behind the curtains between acts of the play? They are rearranging the set to fit the next act.
This is exactly what John is doing. When the 7th seal is opened, then the book gets opened and inside the book is written the 70th week of Daniel. It will begin with trumpet judgments coming with the Wrath of God. (This is the next "act." God's wrath beginning with the trumpet judgments.)
John had to close the curtain, so to speak, and rearrange the set because wrath is coming to earth. In the mind of God, TWO EVENTS MUST TAKE PLACE before wrath begins: FIRST, the 144,000 of Israel MUST be sealed for their protection.
SECOND: God must see the church safely in heaven before He pours out His wrath.
So John breaks from his narrative of the seals before the 7th so these two events can be accomplished. (John is showing us what WILL HAPPEN in our future.)
The great crowd too large to number: lets think about it for a moment. The raptured church will be a HUGE group of people, perhaps 50 generations of believers. Yes, they started out as a small group, but every generation got bigger. It is sort of like the old story of a small container of wheat, doubled each day for 30 days. It begins very small: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16. But by the time you get to the 29th and 30th day, the total is up to millions. All these generations of belivers - the dead in Christ - will add up to billions. But then add to that all the believers in this final generation, and add to that, probably all children will be caught up. Just to compare, if someone counted one person a second for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, it would take 133 years to count to one billion.
NO group - and again I say, NO GROUP from the 7 years of tribulation will add up to such a number. Especially not those beheaded.
There will only be two such HUGE groups in the end, the Old Testament church and the NEW testament church. But John did not see the resurrection of the old so did not write it. He DID see the NT church safely in heaven and wrote about it.
Every word of their description sounds like the raptured church - all but two words. "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands" This is a perfect description of the church of Jesus Christ. It will be a great multitude. It will be of all nations, all kindreds, all people and all tongues, and clothed in white robes.
One of the elders ask John what his great crowd was and where did they come from? Most people think the answer is, how did this great crowd get suddenly from earth up to heaven - but that is not the answer given.
"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Notice the words, "washed their robes." HOW did they wash their robes? They washed them in the blood of the lamb. What is the meaning? It means they got born again. They are in this great crowd too large to number because they heard the gospel, believed it, and were born again. The elder is not telling us how they got from earth to heaven, but rather how each left a walk of sin headed for hell but was born again and so added to the body of Christ on earth. Therefore, the only meaning we can get from "great tribulation" is that is what God calls life on earth as a sinner. Perhaps God was adding up all the lives together before they were born again and chose to call it mega - which is translated as great. We KNOW we have tribulation in life, but it is far greater as a sinner. Sinners have no hope. Death for a sinner has a great sting.
I am convinced this great crowd too large to number is the just raptured church.
The Day of the Lord was started just before chapter 7. The 70th week of Daniel will begin with the 7th seal and first trumpet in chapter 8. John will not get to the days of great tribulation (GT) that Jesus spoke of until after the abomination which in Revelation is in chapter 11. But those days of GT Jesus spoke of will be caused by the Beast and False Prophet, and they don't show up until chapter 13. God sends a warning via an angel not to receive the mark, in chapter 14, so those days of GT will have not started before God's warning. The martyrs of the Beast do not begin showing up in heaven until chapter 15. Yet, I have had some people insist that the days of GT Jesus spoke of are at the 5th seal. They know nothing of John's chronology.