Btw, the page cited in the OP is largely 'propositions' about what he thinks on the subject, not arguments in favor of pre-trib.
50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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The scripture is very clear, Jesus Christ is speaking to the (Future) church present on earth, that will witness the Great Tribulation and Second Coming, Clear, Simple, Easy To Understand
Has Jesus Christ Returned In The Clouds Of Heaven (NO)
The church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and be eyewitnesses to the second coming
(They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming)
(Lift Up Your Heads For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)
Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
If you would start in Vers 5 you would find that Jesus spoke to the jews and that what will come in Future for Israel and the world.
There was no Christian church in this time.
So how he should speak to the jews about the Christian Church?
Yes I understand now thank you. This false letter originated from non-Christians evidently. Which of course lends even more support to the premise that the post-trib rapture is erroneous false and unscriptural. And that these passages are Paul's efforts to reaffirm what he had taught them earlier: the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture!
You don't seem to be reading what I put, very carefully.
V.2 (of 2Th2) is Paul basically telling the Thessalonians not to be persuaded by anyone telling them "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" (i.e. that they were PRESENTLY *IN* and EXPERIENCING "the DOTL" earthly time-period of JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME, that is, that THE TRIB YRS were NOW PRESENT... that THAT "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]").
It wasn't (it wasn't PRESENT and unfolding upon the earth in their experience, despite what the false conveyors were telling them, v.2), and Paul is telling WHY... ONE THING must take place *FIRST* ("THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*" [i.e. v.1's Subject], "our RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]," *FIRST*).
However, it was a perfectly REASONABLE thing for them to be persuaded was true ("the DOTL *IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]*"), though incorrect, based on their own PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE experiences they were ENDURING, per 1:4. They were not being convinced of something irrational and having absolutely no evidence.
For example, they were under NO SUCH delusion that "JESUS HIMSELF *IS PRESENT*" or that "the RAPTURE *IS PRESENT*," as some folks want to think this passage is conveying (as a cpl of options ppl suggest), rather than how Scripture ITSELF defines the phrase v.2 ("the DOTL" time-period: always "earthly-located," not merely "a singular 24-hr day," not commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, but commencing PRIOR to that, with its being "a period of time of JUDGMENTs, [but then is followed by and INCLUDES] as well [as] a period of time of BLESSINGs" [IOW, "the DOTL" also INCLUDES the time-period FOLLOWING His "RETURN" to the earth, i.e. INCLUDES the entire earthly MK age])
"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this PRESENT age [singular]") is SOLELY to whom "our Rapture [/SNATCH / CAUGHT-UP/-AWAY]" pertains. It does NOT pertain to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints); Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence] (IOW, "saints" of ALL OTHER time periods are never referred to as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" - Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])
Pretty much agree!
(though I do believe it was worded in a somewhat confusing way, for most)[yep, in v.2, Paul is saying basically, "don't believe THEM," and on the other end of that section, in v.15, says, "believe US instead! [what WE taught you!]"]
Pre-trib rapture was already debunked on the first page of this thre
Arguing for a pre-trib rapture undermines what the Bible actually says about the return of Christ.
There's no anti-Christ and false prophet in the temple after Jesus returns because the wicked get destroyed by the brightness of His coming exactly like scriptures states.
You're basically saying Christ comes to save the church then returns again later to execute wrath on the wicked.
Pre-trib rapture has to invent multiple comings of Christ to make the theology work and that's only the beginning of the numerous fatal flaws of your theology.
Arguing for a pre-trib rapture undermines what the Bible actually says about the return of Christ.
There's no anti-Christ and false prophet in the temple after Jesus returns because the wicked get destroyed by the brightness of His coming exactly like scriptures states.
You're basically saying Christ comes to save the church then returns again later to execute wrath on the wicked.
Pre-trib rapture has to invent multiple comings of Christ to make the theology work and that's only the beginning of the numerous fatal flaws of your theology.
His "RETURN" (per the verses using this term) speaks of "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [Rev19]" (no "pre-tribber" claims "the man of sin" ARRIVES *after* THAT
)You've not read what I've put in other posts regarding this:
--our Rapture *FIRST*
--"[rest / repose with us] IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those who..." (this INCLUDES what 2Th2:10-12 says, "GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the pseudei..." over the course of SOME TIME, not merely "a split-second moment of time," nor merely "a singular 24-hr day"... but rather, in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" ['avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"] time-period that IS the 7-yr tribulation period unfolding upon the earth, and INVOLVING "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME)... where the rest of the passage goes on to speak of "future-to-THAT,-even" things...
Consider a post I made in the past, regarding this ^ (I'm referring to the fact that SCRIPTURE ITSELF has NO SUCH "rule" as you are presenting, which is a man-made construct/idea):
[quoting old posts]
That reminds me of those who say that the "occasion" in Matt26:6-13/Mk14:3-9/Jn12:1-8 and the one in Lk7:36-50 are one and the same simply because they BOTH use the phrase "an alabaster box of ointment" (and the events sound fairly similar).
https://www.gotquestions.org/alabaster-box.html
[one occasion or two separate occasions?]
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=an+alabaster+box+of+ointment&qs_version=KJV
Now, back to the "First Advent" issue I mentioned...
--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it?
Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem/'House of Bread') unto Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city / 'city of Peace']'])
--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both of them about that (what we call His 'First Advent'), even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART!
(whereas other passages speak of events surrounding [what we commonly call] His "SECOND ADVENT," yet future--some of them also covering A SPANS OF TIME OF SOME DURATION, just as in His "First Advent" events did
).[end quoting old posts]
I hate to say it but some people simply cannot grasp these (quite straightforward) Biblical concepts that you have set forth. I hope the cause of it is not Strong Delusion........for reasons that are obvious.His "RETURN" (per the verses using this term) speaks of "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [Rev19]" (no "pre-tribber" claims "the man of sin" ARRIVES *after* THAT
You've not read what I've put in other posts regarding this:
--our Rapture *FIRST*
--"[rest / repose with us] IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those who..." (this INCLUDES what 2Th2:10-12 says, "GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the pseudei..." over the course of SOME TIME, not merely "a split-second moment of time," nor merely "a singular 24-hr day"... but rather, in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" ['avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"] time-period that IS the 7-yr tribulation period unfolding upon the earth, and INVOLVING "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME)... where the rest of the passage goes on to speak of "future-to-THAT,-even" things...
Consider a post I made in the past, regarding this ^ (I'm referring to the fact that SCRIPTURE ITSELF has NO SUCH "rule" as you are presenting, which is a man-made construct/idea):
[quoting old posts]
That reminds me of those who say that the "occasion" in Matt26:6-13/Mk14:3-9/Jn12:1-8 and the one in Lk7:36-50 are one and the same simply because they BOTH use the phrase "an alabaster box of ointment" (and the events sound fairly similar).
https://www.gotquestions.org/alabaster-box.html
[one occasion or two separate occasions?]
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=an+alabaster+box+of+ointment&qs_version=KJV
Now, back to the "First Advent" issue I mentioned...
--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it?
Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem/'House of Bread') unto Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city / 'city of Peace']'])
--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both of them about that (what we call His 'First Advent'), even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART!
(whereas other passages speak of events surrounding [what we commonly call] His "SECOND ADVENT," yet future--some of them also covering A SPANS OF TIME OF SOME DURATION, just as in His "First Advent" events did
[end quoting old posts]
His "RETURN" (per the verses using this term) speaks of "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [Rev19]" (no "pre-tribber" claims "the man of sin" ARRIVES *after* THAT
You've not read what I've put in other posts regarding this:
--our Rapture *FIRST*
--"[rest / repose with us] IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those who..." (this INCLUDES what 2Th2:10-12 says, "GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the pseudei..." over the course of SOME TIME, not merely "a split-second moment of time," nor merely "a singular 24-hr day"... but rather, in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" ['avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"] time-period that IS the 7-yr tribulation period unfolding upon the earth, and INVOLVING "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME)... where the rest of the passage goes on to speak of "future-to-THAT,-even" things...
Consider a post I made in the past, regarding this ^ (I'm referring to the fact that SCRIPTURE ITSELF has NO SUCH "rule" as you are presenting, which is a man-made construct/idea):
[quoting old posts]
That reminds me of those who say that the "occasion" in Matt26:6-13/Mk14:3-9/Jn12:1-8 and the one in Lk7:36-50 are one and the same simply because they BOTH use the phrase "an alabaster box of ointment" (and the events sound fairly similar).
https://www.gotquestions.org/alabaster-box.html
[one occasion or two separate occasions?]
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=an+alabaster+box+of+ointment&qs_version=KJV
Now, back to the "First Advent" issue I mentioned...
--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it?
Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem/'House of Bread') unto Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city / 'city of Peace']'])
--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both of them about that (what we call His 'First Advent'), even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART!
(whereas other passages speak of events surrounding [what we commonly call] His "SECOND ADVENT," yet future--some of them also covering A SPANS OF TIME OF SOME DURATION, just as in His "First Advent" events did
[end quoting old posts]
A lot of whataboutism that just circumnavigates and distorts the truth I presented to you.
The strong delusion is refusing to love the truth and be saved. Your doctrine about the pre-trib rapture isn't the truth that saves, nor is any other rapture doctrine the truth that saves. Only Jesus saves.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Seems to me you're the one doing the circumnavigating in circumlocution now eh?
This is the very height of 'pre-trib' arrogance - as if merely believing in a 'pre-trib' rapture somehow grants a person a "higher standing" with God. And, moreover, that not believing in a 'pre-trib' rapture somehow equates to a desire to not want to go with the Lord when He comes...??? Good grief! Get real!
I would like to encourage you to "study a little deeper" concerning the Olivet Discourse.
You should find that the words 'And then' in [both] verse 30 and verse 31 are equally significant.
You should find that something noteworthy happens between the word 'days' in verse 29 and the end of the verse.
You should find that something to be the 3.5 year span that we call the 'Two Witnesses' - and, coinciding with the 'Trumpet' events, which the Two Witnesses themselves actually bring about.
It is not the appearance of Jesus at His Second Coming that coincides with the end of the GT; rather, it is the appearance of the two witnesses.
The Second Coming of Christ occurs very shortly after the Two Witnesss are raised up.
Unless you are talking about the 'event' that is the 'Wrath of God'.
(Even then, it is a short period of time.)
The Church will still be in existence at the time of the 'Wrath' - just not on the earth during that time.
Remember, hell shall not prevail against it.
If one [more] soul passes through the gates of hell after the Church ceases to exist - the gates of hell will have prevailed against it.
The Church will not cease to exist at any time before hell is thrown into the lake of fire.
This statement is in error.
The Church - or, the Body of Christ - began the day Jesus was baptized.
No. The CONTEXT (2Th2:10-12) where it is saying that "God SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, in order that they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the pseudei..." will take place during a very specific, future, LIMITED time-period... the future time-period in which "the man of sin" will also exist and do all he is slated to do (throughout the course of the 7-yr period leading UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth, i.e. DURING the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 [/ 1:19c / 4:1] speaks of [in contrast to "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"], as well as Lk18:8 and Rom16:20). Not taking place "NOW" (for that specific thing).
It is NOT speaking of your "every day" version of "Satan hath blinded the minds of" and all the other forms of deception going around "since day one" [/throughout history].
THIS CONTEXT is speaking of the FIRST ASPECT OF "the Day of the Lord" time-period (aka "DARK / DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT" [i.e. 7-yr] aspect OF the entire long DOTL; Dan7:7, Gen46:2; Amos 5:18,20; 1Th5:2-3 [ARRIVING like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" which Jesus had spoken of (equivalent the SEALS that take place WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period ONLY; yet FUTURE)]; and many other related passages); In every passage in Scripture that uses the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" in close proximity (that is, within the same context), it is referring to the SAME time-period... and this 2Th 1 & 2 passage (also using both) is no different.
It is a very specific [future] time-period in which "the man of sin" will also exist (doing all he is slated to do, over the course of those "7 yrs").
It is a mistake to think that Paul was addressing merely a "singular point-in-time" in his CONTEXT of these two chpts (2Th 1 & 2), when he is actually covering the ENTIRE spans of time (of the trib yrs: its BEGINNING [2Th2:9a,8a], its MIDDLE [2Th2:4], AND its END [2Th2:8b]--JUST LIKE MANY OTHER related passages ALSO speak of that time-period in the SAME WAY--that is, covering the entire SPANS of the 7 trib yrs: BEGINNING, MIDDLE, and END), as well (is he) covering what must PRECEDE its ARRIVAL/PRESENCE existing and unfolding upon the earth (ONE THING must take place *FIRST* before it can be "PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" IN HIS TIME<--the time-period when "God SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, in order that they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the pseudei" [<--not speaking of "NOW"]).