50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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GaryA said:
Just you and the Word and the Holy Spirit.
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Just me, and the Word, and the Holy Spirit, tell me that the Great Tribulation is a phenomenon SUCH AS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE NOR EVER WILL AGAIN. And it is still in the future.

For then shall be [the] Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21)

I have inserted "the" here because it is "the Tribulation, the Great" (in Greek) in Revelation 7.
 
Truth7t7 said:
The saints seen are the (Two Witnesses) not the entire church as many teach, that will be killed, just days before the second coming.

(Same Event Below)

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
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Where does it say the entire church is not present in the great tribulation?
 
Should be 50 rationalizations.
The heterodoxes of the church today can be boiled down to; rationalism, mysticism, and meritism. But God says love the Lord with all your mind, heart, and strength.
 
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Runningman said:
Where does it say the entire church is not present in the great tribulation?
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My point was, the (Two Withesses) of Rev 11 are the "saints" that the beast will make war against and kill, not the entire church present on earth during the tribulation.

(Same Event Below)

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
 
Truth7t7 said:
My point was, the (Two Withesses) of Rev 11 are the "saints" that the beast will make war against and kill, not the entire church present on earth during the tribulation.

(Same Event Below)

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Click to expand...

Huh ok. So the appearance of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is like a foreshadowing? The two witnesses prophesy 1,260 before their deaths.

So the mark of the beast appears after their deaths? Just trying to form a timeline here.
 
Runningman said:
Huh ok. So the appearance of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 is like a foreshadowing? The two witnesses prophesy 1,260 before their deaths.

So the mark of the beast appears after their deaths? Just trying to form a timeline here.
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You statement that the mark appears "After" their death is unfounded without scriptural support, it's a suggested opinion, feel free to explain your opinion?
 
Truth7t7 said:
You statement that the mark appears "After" their death is unfounded without scriptural support, it's a suggested opinion, feel free to explain your opinion?
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I'm trying to figure out when in relation to the mark of the beast the two saints die. They prophesy for 1,260 days.

Revelation 11:3
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:7
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:16
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
 
Runningman said:
I'm trying to figure out when in relation to the mark of the beast the two saints die. They prophesy for 1,260 days.

Revelation 11:3
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:7
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:16
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
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The 1260 days of the two Witnesses and 42 months of The Beast is the same exact time frame of 3.5 years

What does the world receiving the mark of the beast, have to do with the fact of the "saints" that the beast makes war with is the two witnesses?
 
Runningman said:
I'm trying to figure out when in relation to the mark of the beast the two saints die. They prophesy for 1,260 days.

Revelation 11:3
3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:7
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:16
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
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All without the mark are killed?

We agree
 
Aidan1 said:
Well, till the time of Acts 10, the Gospel was told to jews and samaritians( acts 8)
So what Jesus said is of course for his followers. But a least till acts 10 there was only jews and samaritians the follower of Jesus and faced persecution, even from a man named Saulus.
It is not the first time that prophets talking about an content which is a timely near as well an timely far Event. Like Joel 2, it was only Party fulfilled in acts 2, but the fulfillment (including the context) has not happend till now.
Well we will not solve our differences in this regard, because we have a different hermeneutic.
So we have simply to wait and see what will come. Either you will with me expierience the rapture, ore I will enter with you the tribulation time. ( if we not going before to the Lord)
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...or the entirety of christians rounded up early in in the gt and placed in huge open air compounds. Then the rapture happens before the horrors of the gt.

Postribs will be mocking us " ha ha where is your little escapist baloney now....ha ha you fools"
Then the rapture happens.
They are left behind.

Remember it says "revealed"
The ac is revealed ,then the rapture
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 
Truth7t7 said:
The 1260 days of the two Witnesses and 42 months of The Beast is the same exact time frame of 3.5 years

What does the world receiving the mark of the beast, have to do with the fact of the "saints" that the beast makes war with is the two witnesses?
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It'll help with the chronology of events.
 
Absolutely said:
He has returned.
Not for his bride, but set foot on earth in pauls and johns presence.
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Your theology is way out in left field, Paul and John were in the spirit, and saw into (The Future)

Jesus Christ will be seen visibly by living humans on earth at his second coming, a future event unfulfilled.
 
Runningman said:
It'll help with the chronology of events.
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Gods word describes the false miracles performed by the (False Prophet) will be used to deceive those that receive the mark of the beast, and worship the image?

So at what point does this take place, perhaps you can give your opinion on the presented scripture?

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 
Truth7t7 said:
The future (man of sin/antichrist) will be revealed in Jerusalem, he will proclaim to be God, as Judaism is currently waiting upon the return of their Messiah God, as they rejected Jesus Christ, it's that simple.
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So did you change your mind about the Bible teaching that he will be proclaimed as the Messiah?
 
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Truth7t7 said:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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What is the time span of verse 29?

(3.5 years)

The actual AoD occured in 167 B.C.

Do you understand the parenthetical statements in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 ??

Yes or No ?
 
Truth7t7 said:
Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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I used to believe this (in red) was referring to the End Times Scenario. But then - one day, after doing some [more] study on it, I decided that it was not necessarily the case.

In any case, it does not change the context of the passage or the chapter - and hence, the proper interpretation...
 
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