2 Thessalonians 2

[Yahshua]

Hi Yahshua,

In 2T2 the action is centred on the Temple. As I've said elsewhere, I think the Man Of Lawlessness was Eleazar The Zealot who murdered the High Priest Ananias, took over the Temple precinct, destroyed the order of service, and ended the peace offering to Caesar. This was insane and of course totally lawless at every level, and as Josephus says, was the red rag which made the destruction of Judea inevitable.

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Yes I would agree that the necessity is God-ordained. (It's a while since I studied it to be honest).
The necessity is that Jesus came to Israel, and therefore all Israelites, Jews, by covenant, had the right to hear the gospel. But don't forget also that Christ was the king of Israel and this posed a direct challenge to Caesar's authority.

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Romans needs to be studied. It is quite a difficult book. Paul was talking about Israel though, not everyone, specifically Israel, Israel, Israel. I cannot stress this enough. All scriptural references need to be understood - Paul doesn't quote the scriptures to fill up space.

Romans 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Hi OldSage,

I don't want to derail your thread getting into Romans but indeed I ran a thread studying of the letter a few years ago here before you joined...

As far as the "man of lawlessness"; do you believe the "little horn" (as described in Daniel 7) is another description of this same entity?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The "he / he / he" is Jesus and not the 'prince' in verse 26b.

So you DO agree that two distinct "prince / s" are being referred to in this context??

(that's progress, I think! )

There is no 7-trib in Daniel 9:24-27.

Nor is there any antichrist figure.

Disagree.

As you may recall, I believe the passage is referencing things that take place SEQUENTIALLY (as listed, here in this text)...

...so Jesus' "CUT OFF and have nothing [or, but not for himself]" comes before the 70ad events of "[shall] destroy the city and the sanctuary," and that comes before the "And he shall confirm..." and its "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" (this "he" referring back to the previous verse's "prince THAT SHALL COME [/ COMING]"--and this v.27a/b/c corresponding precisely with a number of other passages ON THIS SUBJECT, with THEIR "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" in the SAME WAY... as I've posted about, abundantly... = ) )

Besides the fact that the "69 Wks [total]" were concluded on the very day that Jesus SAID the Lk19:41-44 words (having to do with "the city") and DID the Zech9:9 thing (ALSO having to do with "Jerusalem")--the very SUBJECT of the Dan9:24-27 prophecy. (... not to mention all the other evidences I've laid out, and many more at back of those, which make your viewpoint 'pale' by comparison--hardly convincing )

 

[Rondonmon]

Those who are deceived by the anti-Christ (even the elect if possible) will view Him as the Messiah who has come to setup the millennial kingdom.

Can't you even get this correct brother? Jesus explicitly says IT IS NOT POSSIBLE, low I have told you beforehand. I think te KJV or even other versions confuse a lot of people tbh.

For example, I can take 1. Cor. 15 and show how it states we are going to die, and people have a hard time understanding that the CHANGING in the twinkling of an eye simply means we change from a corrupt flesh which can not enter Heaven unto an incorrupt Spirit man who can enter heaven. A few verses before verse 51 if people studied, it SPECIFICALLY SAYS, that people are sown in a corrupt flesh man and raised in uncorrupt spirit man as per the dead. But yet they can't understand that we thus need to match those who are RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and thus change from our flesh which can not enter heaven unto a spirit man which can, thus we leave our bodies on this earth. I got news for everyone when our spirit leaves our bodies, WE DIE. There is no flying off to heaven in these bodies.

Back to the point at hand !!

Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.[hand]

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus says IF IT WERE POSSIBLE (meaning it is NOT POSSIBLE), they would deceive my Elect, meaning he Jews who God is protecting, of course, the Anti-Christ and False Prophet don't have to deceive the Remnant Gentile Church, they have rule over them for 42 months, but not over the Jewish Elect who are PROTECTED by God Himself for 42 months !!

Jesus, of course, as I stated the other day came to the Jews only, he's preaching and teaching the Jews, he never went to the Gentiles, he sent Paul to the Gentiles, he wouldn't;t even send the 70 to the Gentiles while he was alive. Thus the VERY Elect means the Jewish elect who are protected and can not be decided, WHY? Well, Jesus tells us right there in NEAN LIGHTS. You see it flasing? It says NOW end times Jews are reading Matt. 24, they have just repented, and the Two-witnesses teach them fast, thus the understand when they see the AoD at the 1290 they have to Flee Judea because the Anti-Christ will Conquer Jerusalem at the 1260, or 30 days later, thus they are reading Matt. 24 intently, and they will see the above I posted:

BEHOLD (Jesus speaking) if they say I am in the desert, do not go, or BEHOLD he is in a secret chambers (storeroom) don't belive it, Because as lightning comes from the East unto the West so shall the son of man come. (In other words, Jesus said, do not look for me anywhere in Jerusalem/Israel, whoever tells you this is lying, I will be seen coming in the Eastern Skies fr all mankind to see !!

This is why he says IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, it's not possible, not any of those Jews living at that time will not understand those 4 simple verses, when I come, you will see me coming in the Eastern Skies, do not believe anything else, PERIOD. Ad Elijah and Moses tell them this also, that is some dynamic authority figures !! I know you added if possible, then you completely forgot the meaning, for some reason. The Anti-Christ will not need to nor try to decide the Christian Remnant (Rev. 12:17) Gentile Church, he will simply demand you worship him or DIE. He is given power over the Saints (all but the Jews who repent) for 42 months. He can't deceive the Jews, it's NOT POSSIBLE Jesus said. Now could one or two, or even 10 or 15 fruity guys be deceived, yea, but God is speaking in general terms, the Jews will not be deceived because Jesus has FORETOLD THEM, he's is coming in the Eastern Skies for all to see !! Pretty simple.

They will believe the anti-Christ is Jesus. They know that when Jesus returns He will take vengeance on those who disobeyed the gospel of Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:8.) The persecution that real Christians will receive, who reject the anti-Christ, will be viewed as justified. This will be the strong delusion experienced by those who have fallen away; I can think of no other likely candidate group than the pre-tribbers.

So, via my above explanation, this whole argument is made NULL and VOID. The 1/3 Jews who repent in Zechariah 13:8-9 will be protected and they will understand those 4 simple verses better than most Christians today because their lives actually depend on them digesting this and not making points that prove them correct, and the 2/3 who do not repent do not need to be tricked, they will either die for not seeing the facts via the Anti-Christ hands, or they will take the Mark of the Beast and die at Gods hand. No trickery is needed. Now, he will indeed try to trick the Jews God is protecting in the Petra/Bozrah area into coming out, that is a FACT, Matt. 24:24 shows us that, which is why we have to read on, where Jesus informs then, DO NOT BELHCE IT.........Don't buy it, I will come in the Eastern Skies for all to see.

2. Thess 2 is about the Departure of the Church. All of your efforts fail. You don't even understand the Rapture's timing. It's so obvious, it's not that complicated, it's of God so that always makes me wary, not of a man's salvation, but of his ability to teach anything of the bible. It's like a teacher with a degree in hand teaching 25 + 25 = 55. It therefore would leave me wondering if they can even teach 1 + 1 = 2. I am wary, is this just a fault, or is it a trend. m

The strategy of Satan is basically a reversal of God's good plan. It's meant to undermine His efforts and deceive. Satan will give an unholy spirit to the beast and false prophet so they can work miracles, he will have disciples, he will have a fake millennial kingdom, he will have a fake gospel, a fake religion, and provide for his followers.

This is all IMAGINARY, my friend. He is given POWER over all the world for 42 months, he doesn't;t need to trick ANYONE saves the Jews God is protecting in the Petra/Bozrah area. So, if you do not make it as a Jew to the Petra/Bozrah area in time, you are out of luck, you will not be protected from the 1260 mark on unless you are in that area. so WHY would the Anti-Christ need to trick anyone else? The Whole miracle works seen in Matt. 24:24 is designed to trick the only ones he can not get at !! How can you miss that? But, Jesus has already told us, this is NOT POSSIBLE. So, he will try from time to time, meanwhile, he will be killing everyone else who refuses to serve him/take the Mark of the Beast. As Hitler did, he was killing Jews unbeknownst to his own peoples in many cases.

Interestingly, if you have ever studied Islamic eschatology, there's some overlap with Christian eschatology, but it's entirely reversed. The anti-Christ in Christianity is the Messiah in Islam. The Messiah in Christianity is the anti-Christ in Islam. Knowing this, I believe, is revealing.

I don't pay it any attention tbh. I don't need to, the bible tells me ec=verything that is going to happen. Islam will be wiped out. The Harlot in Rev. 17:16 is MOSTLY Islam, it is Buddhism, Hinduism, Witchcraft, Mormonism, Jupiter of old, Zeus of old, Baal of old, ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time = The Harlot. The 10 (Europe) kill her off via orders from their boss whom they give their powers unto.

 

[Rondonmon]

It's very nicely worked out bro ... but I don't believe you are right.

We have to stick rigidly to scripture and I strongly urge that we make our case by the plain and open scriptures first and then look at the more obscure apocalyptic scriptures secondarily. The apocalyptic scriptures must fit in with the pain scriptures not the other way around.

The primary scripture must be our Lord's own statement "After the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send forth His angels to gather the elect from the 4 corners of heaven"

This fits 2. Thess. 2. perfectly.

No, it doesn't, you have conflated the scriptures. The After the Tribulation point should be thrown away, a 5th grader could understand that we are saying the Raptured Church comes back with Jesus yet you use it over and over and it just honestly makes e shake my head, you have to be disingenuous or just simply have tunnel vision. Using that verse for that point absolutely makes zero sense, and if Satan can confuse us on that scripture alone, Lord help us would be my prayer.

The Church is WITH Jesus in Matt. 24:29-31 when he returns, GO LOOK at Rev. 19 we Marry the Lamb and COME BACK WITH HIM. This is like, I can't explain how tedious it is to see people who can't get this. The problem is, Satan wants the youth and others not to be ready, it wins him souls because way too many who are not Raptured will not make it, they will be threatened via a loved one's life, and they will cave in and take the Mark of the Beast. These youth who are already weak, need to understand the truth, you better be ready at the Pre Trib Rapture, but many are told (and yes it angers me as a preacher of 35 years to hear this) you have time, you have to go through the Tribulation anyway, so just don't worry about it now, you can make that decision later on. THAT'S HOW THEY THINK, via what you guys tell them, the Saints have to go through the Tribulation? Really, well, I have to EARN my way to heaven I guess, so why worry about it now. When you get to heaven and understand that the Pre Trib Rapture was true all along, and understand many might have been saved if warned correctly, that's going to be a bad thing to understand, of course, all guilt will be wiped away.

Jesus is speaking to the Jews, and in Rev. 19 the Church Returns with Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Can't you even get this correct brother? Jesus explicitly says IT IS NOT POSSIBLE, low I have told you beforehand. I think te KJV or even other versions confuse a lot of people tbh.

For example, I can take 1. Cor. 15 and show how it states we are going to die, and people have a hard time understanding that the CHANGING in the twinkling of an eye simply means we change from a corrupt flesh which can not enter Heaven unto an incorrupt Spirit man who can enter heaven. A few verses before verse 51 if people studied, it SPECIFICALLY SAYS, that people are sown in a corrupt flesh man and raised in uncorrupt spirit man as per the dead. But yet they can't understand that we thus need to match those who are RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and thus change from our flesh which can not enter heaven unto a spirit man which can, thus we leave our bodies on this earth. I got news for everyone when our spirit leaves our bodies, WE DIE. There is no flying off to heaven in these bodies.

Back to the point at hand !!

Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.[hand]

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus says IF IT WERE POSSIBLE (meaning it is NOT POSSIBLE), they would deceive my Elect, meaning he Jews who God is protecting, of course, the Anti-Christ and False Prophet don't have to deceive the Remnant Gentile Church, they have rule over them for 42 months, but not over the Jewish Elect who are PROTECTED by God Himself for 42 months !!

Jesus, of course, as I stated the other day came to the Jews only, he's preaching and teaching the Jews, he never went to the Gentiles, he sent Paul to the Gentiles, he wouldn't;t even send the 70 to the Gentiles while he was alive. Thus the VERY Elect means the Jewish elect who are protected and can not be decided, WHY? Well, Jesus tells us right there in NEAN LIGHTS. You see it flasing? It says NOW end times Jews are reading Matt. 24, they have just repented, and the Two-witnesses teach them fast, thus the understand when they see the AoD at the 1290 they have to Flee Judea because the Anti-Christ will Conquer Jerusalem at the 1260, or 30 days later, thus they are reading Matt. 24 intently, and they will see the above I posted:

BEHOLD (Jesus speaking) if they say I am in the desert, do not go, or BEHOLD he is in a secret chambers (storeroom) don't belive it, Because as lightning comes from the East unto the West so shall the son of man come. (In other words, Jesus said, do not look for me anywhere in Jerusalem/Israel, whoever tells you this is lying, I will be seen coming in the Eastern Skies fr all mankind to see !!

This is why he says IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, it's not possible, not any of those Jews living at that time will not understand those 4 simple verses, when I come, you will see me coming in the Eastern Skies, do not believe anything else, PERIOD. Ad Elijah and Moses tell them this also, that is some dynamic authority figures !! I know you added if possible, then you completely forgot the meaning, for some reason. The Anti-Christ will not need to nor try to decide the Christian Remnant (Rev. 12:17) Gentile Church, he will simply demand you worship him or DIE. He is given power over the Saints (all but the Jews who repent) for 42 months. He can't deceive the Jews, it's NOT POSSIBLE Jesus said. Now could one or two, or even 10 or 15 fruity guys be deceived, yea, but God is speaking in general terms, the Jews will not be deceived because Jesus has FORETOLD THEM, he's is coming in the Eastern Skies for all to see !! Pretty simple.

Unfortunately, you just built that tower of text on sand and it's falling down. You say the elect cannot be deceived? Guess again.

Jesus is not saying that it's impossible for the elect to be deceived. He is saying "if it were possible" to be deceived because it is possible. That's why Jesus goes through the effort of saying anything at all. That's the whole reason we have the Bible. This is all very elementary. The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit. Without it I guarantee you'll be deceived.

Matthew 24:3
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Again, Paul introduces the possibility of being deceived and goes out of his way to dispel any false messages that were deceiving the elect:

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Again:

2 Corinthians 11:3
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

In your haste to gainsay, you've built an entire argument on false pretenses in order to attack a strawman of your own making. No need to even address the rest of what you said. God bless brother, I pray the Lord opens your eyes.

 

[OldSage]

Hi OldSage,

I don't want to derail your thread getting into Romans but indeed I ran a thread studying of the letter a few years ago here before you joined...

As far as the "man of lawlessness"; do you believe the "little horn" (as described in Daniel 7) is another description of this same entity?

Absolutely not Yahshua. Does this forum represent the orthodox views of Christianity?
I really hope not.

The beasts and horns of Daniel 7 represent periods of time in the thousands of years.
Almost 3000 years is the frame of reference.

The imminent events of 2T2 have almost absolutely nothing to do with Daniel 2 and 7.

Please tell me these mad ideas on this forum belong to a few whacky outliers.

Regarding Romans, it is foundational Yahshua.

 

[OldSage]

Disagree.


Not buyin' it (I think you're reaching!), and here's why...


Matthew 24:15 - "having been spoken of THROUGH [DIA] Daniel the prophet" ... which can legit refer to [Daniel writing] "what he [/someone else] SAID" (but via Daniel)... and we ("AD era" ppl) only know about what was said (that Daniel heard / witnessed) coz it's written via Daniel's book ... just as in the following examples...



--Matthew 2:17-18 - "having been spoken of THROUGH [DIA] Jeremiah the prophet"... where Jeremiah 31:15 spells out "this is what the LORD says." (i.e. another besides Jeremiah himself);



--Matthew 3:3 - "having been spoken of THROUGH [DIA] Isaiah the prophet..." ... where Isaiah 40:3[5] spells out, "A voice of one calling..." (then quoting another's words), and "5... the mouth of the LORD hath spoken." (i.e. another besides Isaiah himself);



--Acts 2:16-17 - "having been spoken of THROUGH [DIA] the prophet Joel:..." ... where Joel 2:28-32 spells out, "And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh. [...]" and where practically the entire chapter is "what he [/someone else] says" (namely, the LORD; not Joel himself)



Let the readers judge. = )

You are shouting. It is ugly TDW.

'dia' here means by the intervention of really, and refers to Daniel's intercessionary prayer for Israel, in Daniel 9.

So:

''spoken by the intervention of the prophet Daniel''

Spoken NOT written. It is crystal clear TDW.

The other problem with your false exegesis is that Daniel 12 (where you locate the AoD) is encrypted til
the end of time. It is therefore not a legitimate point of reference if the goal is to enlighten anyone.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@OldSage ,

It is terribly obvious that you did not examine each of the few examples I provided, of what it means for it to say, "having been spoken of through [dia] the prophet ______ " (it is not referring to the prophet's own words or what they themselves "said," in those texts, but of another's words, i.e. what someone else said ).





But believe as you wish.

 

[GaryA]

Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This is 3 1/2 years I will continue with more when I am back from work

Daniel9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

One week figurative for 7 years

Nope. Don't see a 7-year tribulation period.

 

[Jackson123]

Nope. Don't see a 7-year tribulation period.

And what do you see on those verses?

 

[GaryA]

As you may recall, I believe the passage is referencing things that take place SEQUENTIALLY (as listed, here in this text)...

...so Jesus' "CUT OFF and have nothing [or, but not for himself]" comes before the 70ad events of "[shall] destroy the city and the sanctuary," and that comes before the "And he shall confirm..." and its "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" (this "he" referring back to the previous verse's "prince THAT SHALL COME [/ COMING]"--and this v.27a/b/c corresponding precisely with a number of other passages ON THIS SUBJECT, with THEIR "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END" in the SAME WAY... as I've posted about, abundantly... = ) )

No.

Not a sequence.

The phrase 'cut off' refers to the crucifixion of Christ - which occurred in the middle of the 70th week.

The last half of verse 26 (after colon) is talking about the events of circa 70 A.D.

All three of the words 'he' in verse 27 are referring to Jesus.

Daniel 9:24-27 is 100% fulfilled.

Week 70 ended in 34 A.D.

 

[OldSage]

@OldSage ,
It is terribly obvious that you did not examine each of the few examples I provided, of what it means for it to say, "having been spoken of through [dia] the prophet ______ " (it is not referring to the prophet's own words or what they themselves "said," in those texts, but of another's words, i.e. what someone else said ).
But believe as you wish.

Simply wrong again TDW.

If it was as you say, then Jesus could have phrased Matthew 24:
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] written of by the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

But that is not what Jesus said. He said:
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

Spoken versus written. Are you getting the idea?
Daniel never ever spoke the words about the AoD that you claim.
Unfortunately you quibble day and night about plurals, and such like, but are completely unable to grasp the meaning of the most elementary English word. To Speak.

So ultimately you are just peddling old unsound eschatologies I am afraid TDW, and not with any great intellectual credibility.

Dia (with genitive) - 1. of one who is the author of the action as well as its instrument

 

[Adstar]

What's it all about?

2 Thessalonians 2 deals with the coming of the wicked one who is more popularly known as the anti-Christ..

He will come before the return of Jesus and will deceive all those people who have rejected the Love of the truth ( The Gospel of Jesus Christ ) Their doom will be assured because not only will the wicked one be very deceiving but the LORD will cause the people to be delusional so that they will believe the Lies of the Anti-Christ and will thus be condemned at the last judgement.. The wicked one will be able to perform deceiving signs and wonders.. ( miracles ) I personalty believe the great deception will be that the anti-christ will fool them into believing he is the promised messiah..

 

[OldSage]

@OldSage ,

It is terribly obvious that you did not examine each of the few examples I provided, of what it means for it to say, "having been spoken of through [dia] the prophet ______ " (it is not referring to the prophet's own words or what they themselves "said," in those texts, but of another's words, i.e. what someone else said ).

But believe as you wish.

I sometimes get annoyed with you TDW, but actually your obsession with detail is very helpful to us.
Rheo simply means to speak.

In order to mean 'to speak of/about' it has to be in tandem with 'hypo'
rheo dia = to speak about - indicating target
(Matt 1:22, 2:15)

In order to mean to speak by/through it has to be in tandem with 'dia'
rheo hypo = to speak by - indicating instrumentality/source

So 'rheo dia' in Matthew simply means spoken by Daniel.

However Mark uses 'rheo hypo', rather than 'rheo dia'.

This really closes the case.

hypo - 2. metaphorically, of the efficient cause, as that under the power of which an event is conceived of as being; here the Latin uses ἆ or ἀβ, and the English by

So clearly Mark means 'by' here as he is using hypo with an identical meaning to 'dia'.

Both mean simply 'by' - spoken by Daniel.

The 'spoken of by' is translators' error actually.

 

[OldSage]

oops....internet crashed, try again --- redaction
------------------------------------------------------------

I sometimes get annoyed with you TDW, but actually your obsession with detail is very helpful to us.
Rheo simply means to speak.

In order to mean 'to speak of/about' it has to be in tandem with 'hypo'
rheo hypo = to speak about - indicating target
(Matt 1:22, 2:15)

In order to mean to speak by/through it has to be in tandem with 'dia'
rheo dia = to speak by - indicating instrumentality/source

So 'rheo dia' in Matthew simply means spoken by Daniel.

However Mark uses 'rheo hypo', rather than 'rheo dia'.

This really closes the case.

hypo - 2. metaphorically, of the efficient cause, as that under the power of which an event is conceived of as being; here the Latin uses ἆ or ἀβ, and the English by

So clearly Mark means 'by' here as he is using 'hypo' with an identical meaning to 'dia'.

Both mean simply 'by' - spoken by Daniel.

The 'spoken of by' is translators' error actually, and for the 'spoken of by' to be correct, both Mark and Matthew would have had to use two prepositions e.g. 'rheo hypo (dia)'

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Simply wrong again TDW.
If it was as you say, then Jesus could have phrased Matthew 24:
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] written of by the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

But that is not what Jesus said. He said:

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
Spoken versus written. Are you getting the idea?
Daniel never ever spoke the words about the AoD that you claim.
Unfortunately you quibble day and night about plurals, and such like, but are completely unable to grasp the meaning of the most elementary English word. To Speak.

One of the examples I provided:

--Acts 2:16-17 - "having been spoken of through [dia] the prophet Joel:..." ... where Joel 2:28-32 spells out, "And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh. [...]" and where practically the entire chapter is "what he [/someone else] says" (namely, the LORD; not Joel himself):


.......Acts 2:16-17, "16 But this is that which was spoken through [dia] the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

.......Joel 2:28-32 [so this is what was "having been spoken of through [dia] the prophet Joel"], "28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."



Where is Joel himself shown to be "speaking" in this Joel text, like Acts [supposedly] says he does, according to your view...?



Likewise, in Daniel 12, who is it saying "And one said to..." (v.6) and "then said I" (v.8) and "And he said" (v.9)... etc?



[btw, I believe I've see the same types of things when the word "hupo / hypo" is used instead of "dia"... and apparently there is even some question as to whether or not that particular phrase is found in Mark 13:14, according to the "markings" ( < > ) showing at BibleHub: https://biblehub.com/text/mark/13-14.htm (second column)... and showing in this LISTING of versions of that verse: https://biblehub.com/parallel/mark/13-14.htm ]

 

[Mem]

Unfortunately, you just built that tower of text on sand and it's falling down. You say the elect cannot be deceived? Guess again.

Jesus is not saying that it's impossible for the elect to be deceived. He is saying "if it were possible" to be deceived because it is possible. That's why Jesus goes through the effort of saying anything at all. That's the whole reason we have the Bible. This is all very elementary. The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit. Without it I guarantee you'll be deceived.

Matthew 24:3
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Again, Paul introduces the possibility of being deceived and goes out of his way to dispel any false messages that were deceiving the elect:

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Again:

2 Corinthians 11:3
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

In your haste to gainsay, you've built an entire argument on false pretenses in order to attack a strawman of your own making. No need to even address the rest of what you said. God bless brother, I pray the Lord opens your eyes.

Although I disagree with rondonmon on other points, such as the constitution of the elect, I do I agree in that the grammar rule usage in the phrase 'if it were possible' are indicative of a negative such like one would use the word 'were' rather than 'is' that would indicate the positive. For example, consider the contrast between, "If I were a rich man, then I could buy...(as in really can't)" and, "If I am a rich man, then I could buy... (as in truly can)"

 

[Absolutely]

I just spelled it out for you why that's not the case with the "definite article", go find anywhere in the passage where it speaks of FAITH, anywhere in the whole chapter. I will wait, but you will not be able to reply brother. Paul was telling the Thessalonians not to worry, they would not be here for God's WRath, and the Departure AND the Anti-Christ both show up before God's Wrath. To me it's not complicated, it's again people not being able to let go of old think. The Pharisees did the same thing, that's why Jesus had to get babes, We are dealing with END TIME THINGS that God decided not to reveal until the very end times (God told Daniel that) yet we are bringing our understandings of PRE God opening that vault and God told me 5 years or so ago that us already "KNOWING EVERYTHING" was hindering Him from teaching us what we needed to know. A lot of things I learned came after that encounter. I didn't just continue to rely on my 30 years of knowledge, I of course kept what I knew that I knew as correct, but things that were just ACCEPTED, like the 144,000 Super Preachers which is NOWHERE in the bible or those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 as being out of the 70th-week tribulation, when they can't be, etc., etc., I stopped just accepting when men had passed down and starting reading and asking Gid, Hey, its the End Times, SHOW ME NEW THINGS NEVER BEFORE REVEALED.

When I can't get anyone to understand the 1335 comes first, then the 1290, and then the 1260, and I know it is of God, Houston we have a problem. My blog explains why it's DEPARTING the earth pretty basic stuff. When you see anywhere in the chapter where FAITH is being spoken of getting back to me. You write a whole chapter about DEPARTING the Faith bit the only thing being spoken about is a GATHERING unto Christ. I mean, this should be is like shooting sitting ducks. When we are Raptured, only our Spirits leave.

God Bless. Try to incorporate Occam's Razor at times, sometimes simple logic stops us from wasting time on much more complex theories that are probably wrong anyway, thus I start with the simple logistics first.

""". When we are Raptured, only our Spirits leave"""

Nope.
You claim to have a special knowledge none of us has and then post something like that.

 

[Absolutely]

There are so many dead ends that eschatologists go down.
And it all stems from inaccurate premises which then create absurd
dogmas and perennial conflict - see post-trib versus pre-trib.

False premise No 1

(The) great tribulation = some 7 year future period of suffering for the Jews

Anti-semitic garbage.

(the) Great Suffering is that endured by the Holy People (Israel of the flesh) for the last 2000
years. God works in front of our eyes for 2000 years, but the crackpot 'church' decides to concoct nonsense fables in her seminaries. These are then spewed endlessly, by handsomely rewarded teachers and preachers, perpetuated and swilled down by the drunken followers.
These things are very bad.

i like reading most of your posts.

This one is totally wrong and backwards from the first sentence.

Every point is erroneous

 

[JerryInBoston]

'Them' and 'they' of 2 Th. 2 are those to whom the message of the cross was/is/always will be and always has been foolishness. Them and they reject God, and were charmed or beguiled by the devil: the things of the world, the flesh, lust, and pride of life. They are reprobate, they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit, committed the unpardonable sin, and they reached a point in time when there is no further chance at turning/repenting. All hope of salvation has passed for those 2Th2. They are about to receive their just penalty.

"2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10 and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11 For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12 in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness."