2 Thessalonians 2
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As for the Big Lie, here are the notes (my thoughts) that I've put together a time ago (I'm not God, so I may be wrong):
This is a remarkable set of texts where the context is disobedience and wickedness. The "big lie" that God will cause us to believe is the one where we will believe that we do not have to obey to be saved. And today's church seems to clearly be under this delusion. So, God is about to prove Himself by waking us all up in what I believe could be an instant. In the blink of an eye, our eyes and ears will be opened and the church will pull together as one body, and this will prove to the world that our God is Lord and none other. Unity has not yet taken place, but we are primed and ready for it. For we must come together very soon as God is about to Harvest this country.
The lie that God will get the world to believe, is the same lie that Satan told Adam and Eve, which is that they can disobey, and that it won’t be a problem with God. - This is the lie that we have always believed, for it is the very lie that the Devil placed upon mankind, thus it is the same lie that most "christians" live under today, that is until Christ places His Holy Hands upon our Hearts so that we can think straight.
This is a remarkable set of texts where the context is disobedience and wickedness. The "big lie" that God will cause us to believe is the one where we will believe that we do not have to obey to be saved. And today's church seems to clearly be under this delusion. So, God is about to prove Himself by waking us all up in what I believe could be an instant. In the blink of an eye, our eyes and ears will be opened and the church will pull together as one body, and this will prove to the world that our God is Lord and none other. Unity has not yet taken place, but we are primed and ready for it. For we must come together very soon as God is about to Harvest this country.
The lie that God will get the world to believe, is the same lie that Satan told Adam and Eve, which is that they can disobey, and that it won’t be a problem with God. - This is the lie that we have always believed, for it is the very lie that the Devil placed upon mankind, thus it is the same lie that most "christians" live under today, that is until Christ places His Holy Hands upon our Hearts so that we can think straight.
Hi 2TG,
I agree. I created the thread because the 'pre-trib' thread has become focused on 2T2.
I think discussing both letters of Thessalonians would be interesting....
I agree. I created the thread because the 'pre-trib' thread has become focused on 2T2.
I think discussing both letters of Thessalonians would be interesting....
The ones who will be deceived are those who received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved (vs 10) ... those who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness (vs 12):
2 Thessalonians 2:
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Those who reject the truth and prefer pleasure in unrighteousness are the ones who will be deceived.
True believers will not be deceived:
2 Thessalonians 2:
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
True believers will stand fast ... stand firm in faith.
Here's what I just put over in the other thread, which will BEGIN to address your question (
)... since you asked, and directed me to this thread....[quoting from my Post #4873 (pg 244 of the other thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4593383 ]
[...] showing that Paul is not starting an entirely new Subject in chapter 2 from that of what he'd already been speaking of in the previous chapter [... <snip>...]. But I find two significant issues with how many people interpret chpt 1 (and consequently parts of chpt 2):
[I've pointed out...]
--wherever the phrases "the day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used (throughout scripture) in the SAME CONTEXTS (i.e. in close proximity), they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD; and such is the case also of their use here in THESE TWO CHPTS (1 & 2);
--they are not referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day," but a TIME PERIOD;
--this is true also of what 2 Thess chapter 1 verses 7-10 is speaking to, [that SAME EXACT] TIME PERIOD that will end at a certain point in time (i.e. the TRIB YEARS unfolding upon the earth, that will end with His Second Coming to the earth), aka the "IN THE NIGHT" ASPECT OF "the day of the Lord" TIME PERIOD... which Subject CARRIES OVER INTO Paul's chpt 2 continuing of the SAME TOPIC! He has NOT "switched gears"... he is still covering what he's already covered [ / described] in the FIRST CHPT...
The problem enters when ppl do not recognize he's referring to a TIME PERIOD (esp in vv.7-10), and mistakenly think he is referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day / point-in-time." He's not.
Here are 10 posts (there may have been more) in this thread [edit: in the other thread], where I cover the subject of chpt 1 (esp vv.7-10), A TIME PERIOD, which is the SAME THING Paul carries over into his chpt 2. Consider:
1)--Post #2928 (pg 147) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575193
2)--Post #2969 (pg 149) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575353
[and...]
3)--Post #47 (pg 3), top-/mid-section of that post - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4530073
4)--Post #564 (pg 29) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534570
5)--Post #1756 (pg 88) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4544342
6)--Post #1763 (pg 89) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4544449
7)--Post #2418, continuation of Post #2417 (pg 121) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4554106
8)--Post #2974 (pg 149) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575368
9)--Post #3004 (pg 151) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575549
10)--Post #4450 (pg 223) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4589131
[end quoting from Post #4873, different thread]
____________
I'm happy to discuss any questions these posts may lead you to have, about what I've put. = )
I am sorry, I find that in some people's agendas but I don't find your explanation in the text.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
It appears the reason people believe the lie is because they reject the truth of the Gospel and instead embrace one (.the son of iniquity.) who comes with mighty signs and wonders.
This is not easy to understand.....how about a few paragraphs without annotations.....Here's what I just put over in the other thread, which will BEGIN to address your question (
[quoting from my Post #4873 (pg 244 of the other thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4593383 ]
[...] showing that Paul is not starting an entirely new Subject in chapter 2 from that of what he'd already been speaking of in the previous chapter [... <snip>...]. But I find two significant issues with how many people interpret chpt 1 (and consequently parts of chpt 2):
[I've pointed out...]
--wherever the phrases "the day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used (throughout scripture) in the SAME CONTEXTS (i.e. in close proximity), they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD; and such is the case also of their use here in THESE TWO CHPTS (1 & 2);
--they are not referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day," but a TIME PERIOD;
--this is true also of what 2 Thess chapter 1 verses 7-10 is speaking to, [that SAME EXACT] TIME PERIOD that will end at a certain point in time (i.e. the TRIB YEARS unfolding upon the earth, that will end with His Second Coming to the earth), aka the "IN THE NIGHT" ASPECT OF "the day of the Lord" TIME PERIOD... which Subject CARRIES OVER INTO Paul's chpt 2 continuing of the SAME TOPIC! He has NOT "switched gears"... he is still covering what he's already covered [ / described] in the FIRST CHPT...
The problem enters when ppl do not recognize he's referring to a TIME PERIOD (esp in vv.7-10), and mistakenly think he is referring merely to "a singular 24-hr day / point-in-time." He's not.
Here are 10 posts (there may have been more) in this thread [edit: in the other thread], where I cover the subject of chpt 1 (esp vv.7-10), A TIME PERIOD, which is the SAME THING Paul carries over into his chpt 2. Consider:
1)--Post #2928 (pg 147) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575193
2)--Post #2969 (pg 149) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575353
[and...]
3)--Post #47 (pg 3), top-/mid-section of that post - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4530073
4)--Post #564 (pg 29) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4534570
5)--Post #1756 (pg 88) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4544342
6)--Post #1763 (pg 89) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4544449
7)--Post #2418, continuation of Post #2417 (pg 121) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4554106
8)--Post #2974 (pg 149) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575368
9)--Post #3004 (pg 151) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4575549
10)--Post #4450 (pg 223) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4589131
[end quoting from Post #4873, different thread]
____________
I'm happy to discuss any questions these posts may lead you to have, about what I've put. = )
and endless cross-references.
Fine.
Do you want to start with my first comment? : "[...] showing that Paul is not starting an entirely new Subject in chapter 2 from that of what he'd already been speaking of in the previous chapter [...]. But I find two significant issues with how many people interpret chpt 1 (and consequently parts of chpt 2)"
What is your first question, regarding the above point? Do you have issue with it anywhere?
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." - 2 Thessalonian 2 KJV
Sure. I'll parse what you are saying and write out what I think you mean in orange, and then reply normally:
The Chapter break is arbitrary
Agreed.
^ @OldSage ,
Okay, right... so what I'd put at the first linked post has to do with this ^ point, which post I will quote (in part), here, for the readers:
[quoting]
--1:7-8 says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels [note: "7 angels... 7 trumpets... 7 vials
] in flaming fire INFLICTING *VENGEANCE ON them that..." (on those *same* persons that 2Th2:10-12 says that "GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" *during* that SAME FUTURE, SPECIFIC, LIMITED TIME-PERIOD) [*where "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Lk18:8) is the SAME TIME-PERIOD that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says of "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase also in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"...) ALL speaking of that SAME *future*, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr Trib" (i.e. from SEAL #1 to His RETURN to the earth in Rev19)].
[end quoting from that linked post]
____________
THAT ^ is the substance of the "false claim" that Paul is drawing att'n to in 2Th2:2, the "false claim" saying: that THAT ^ TIME PERIOD "is ALREADY HERE / is ALREADY PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]". (i.e. it already STARTED at some point in the PAST, and its results/effects are CONTINUING INTO THE PRESENT)
Paul is saying, "NOT!" Do not believe that "false claim".
And here's WHY.
Okay, right... so what I'd put at the first linked post has to do with this ^ point, which post I will quote (in part), here, for the readers:
[quoting]
--1:7-8 says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels [note: "7 angels... 7 trumpets... 7 vials
] in flaming fire INFLICTING *VENGEANCE ON them that..." (on those *same* persons that 2Th2:10-12 says that "GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion, SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" *during* that SAME FUTURE, SPECIFIC, LIMITED TIME-PERIOD) [*where "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (Lk18:8) is the SAME TIME-PERIOD that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says of "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase also in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"...) ALL speaking of that SAME *future*, specific, LIMITED time-period we call "the 7-yr Trib" (i.e. from SEAL #1 to His RETURN to the earth in Rev19)].[end quoting from that linked post]
____________
THAT ^ is the substance of the "false claim" that Paul is drawing att'n to in 2Th2:2, the "false claim" saying: that THAT ^ TIME PERIOD "is ALREADY HERE / is ALREADY PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]". (i.e. it already STARTED at some point in the PAST, and its results/effects are CONTINUING INTO THE PRESENT)
Paul is saying, "NOT!" Do not believe that "false claim".
And here's WHY.
^ [re: 2Th2:2] Its pretty much the same [version of] "false claim" we often hear today, in our day: "the birth pangs have started, I can tell by looking around me and reading / watching the news..."
[to which, Paul is saying... "NOT" ... and here's WHY]
[to which, Paul is saying... "NOT" ... and here's WHY]
^ @OldSage ,
Okay, right... so what I'd put at the first linked post has to do with this ^ point, which post I will quote (in part), here, for the readers:
[quoting]
--1:7-8 says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels [note: "7 angels... 7 trumpets... 7 vials
[end quoting from that linked post]
____________
THAT ^ is the substance of the "false claim" that Paul is drawing att'n to in 2Th2:2, its saying that THAT ^ TIME PERIOD "is ALREADY HERE / is ALREADY PRESENT".
Paul is saying, "NOT!" Do not believe that "false claim".
And here's WHY.
Don't agree. I believe this speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem, the great suffering
4 Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.6 God is just:
He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
I disagree that the text itself states it this way ^ .
[see the wording in the Greek, which gives a different sense - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1-10.htm ]
Lol. YOU need to evince the Greek.
And now you are embellishing my text when you quote it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheek
^ "10 when He shall come to be glorified in the saints of Him and to be marveled at among [/in] all those having believed, because was believed the testimony of us to you in the day that [/IN THAT DAY]"
[not saying that "because YOU believed" here in this text--this is not referencing the Thessalonians, other than to say what was taught to them: "the testimony of us to you".... but this section is CONTRASTING what OTHERS will come to "believe" in those SAME future trib years, the "strong delusion" that God shall "SEND TO THEM" (i.e. to the others, who will INSTEAD "believe THE LIE")--BOTH "beliefs" Paul is CONTRASTING will occur IN THE TRIB yrs, future to this writing]
[not saying that "because YOU believed" here in this text--this is not referencing the Thessalonians, other than to say what was taught to them: "the testimony of us to you".... but this section is CONTRASTING what OTHERS will come to "believe" in those SAME future trib years, the "strong delusion" that God shall "SEND TO THEM" (i.e. to the others, who will INSTEAD "believe THE LIE")--BOTH "beliefs" Paul is CONTRASTING will occur IN THE TRIB yrs, future to this writing]
In a nutshell, 2 Thess. 2 is a about a post-return of Christ and post-trib rapture.
Again, "the day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY," wherever they are used in close proximity in scripture (as they are used here, together), always refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD (and Paul had just described THAT TIME PERIOD in the preceding verses, vv.7-8 "IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus WITH His mighty / powerful angels [7 angels... 7 Trumpets... 7 Vials], IN FLAMING FIRE [see Lam 2:3-4, in parallel language to that of 2Th2:7b-8a!] INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." [on the SAME persons that 2Th2:10-12 is referring to, and during the same (future) TIME PERIOD]... which is not speaking merely of "a singular 24-hr day".
____________
To convince me of your viewpoint that Paul is speaking here of the events surrounding 70ad, you'd have to show why the TWO "ends / outcomes" between Luke 21:24[32] ('led away captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem... TRODDEN DOWN OF...') and that of Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13 [Rom11:27 / Dan9:24b] ('gathered... TO Jerusalem') are not "opposite" in nature, and not occurring at wholly differing times, as I see them to be.
[I posted about these items in the "SEQUENCE issues" of the Olivet Discourse... posts]