10 Questions about OSAS

[Edify]

Please be more specific.

Well, we have a protagonist who has a topic that while somewhat true, all the motives seem to be wrong.
Then we have several antagonists who while looking good, correct, & proper, & even popular, are theologically wrong.
It seems the theme is to take a not-so-good guy with a good doctrine overshadowed by what seems to be nice, polite, & popular members who are totally against him, making him look bad & unbelievable for the sake of confirming their false doctrine that will send unsuspecting souls to Hell.
Sorry to be blunt, but I couldn't find a softer way to explain it. I hope this helps.

 

[mailmandan]

Good Word!

Simple, to the point, and eternally true!

Sadly, the OSAS peoples keep trying to correct everyone with they fake gospel! View attachment 257677


View attachment 257676

What fake gospel is that? The gospel is not you can or can't lose your salvation. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. What gospel are you promoting?

 

[maxwel]

Well, we have a protagonist who has a topic that while somewhat true, all the motives seem to be wrong.
Then we have several antagonists who while looking good, correct, & proper, & even popular, are theologically wrong.
It seems the theme is to take a not-so-good guy with a good doctrine overshadowed by what seems to be nice, polite, & popular members who are totally against him, making him look bad & unbelievable for the sake of confirming their false doctrine that will send unsuspecting souls to Hell.
Sorry to be blunt, but I couldn't find a softer way to explain it. I hope this helps.

Thank you for explaining what was on your mind.

1.) On any theological position, people will take different sides, for different reasons.

2.) On any theological position, some people will be polite, some people will get emotional and less polite, and some people will be accused of being this or that because everyone's feelings are hurt... this is just life. Human's are imperfect creatures, all of us.

3.) Although this is a valid issue for you to bring up, it wasn't an issue I was trying to address.

4.) I was just trying to point out a logic problem at the very beginning of the opening post, in the initial premise.



And for the record, sometimes I agree with Jimmy on his views.
I'm not out to get him, I just disagree with him on various things.

God Bless.

.

 

[Edify]

Thank you for explaining what was on your mind.

1.) On any theological position, people will take different sides, for different reasons.

2.) On any theological position, some people will be polite, some people will get emotional and less polite, and some people will be accused of being this or that because everyone's feelings are hurt... this is just life. Human's are imperfect creatures, all of us.

3.) Although this is a valid issue for you to bring up, it wasn't an issue I was trying to address.

4.) I was just trying to point out a logic problem at the very beginning of the opening post, in the initial premise.



And for the record, sometimes I agree with Jimmy on his views.
I'm not out to get him, I just disagree with him on various things.

God Bless.

.

Oh, I know you're not against him in any way, because that's not how you roll.
However, when rereading the whole thread, it mostly(with a few innocent people posting their opinions) looks like a written script that's been used dozens of times with different members over the years to do the same thing: deceive true believers.
Perhaps you could look it over & tell me what you think?

 

[maxwel]

Oh, I know you're not against him in any way, because that's not how you roll.
However, when rereading the whole thread, it mostly(with a few innocent people posting their opinions) looks like a written script that's been used dozens of times with different members over the years to do the same thing: deceive true believers.
Perhaps you could look it over & tell me what you think?

Can you be more specific?
What do you feel is being done that's deceptive?

.

 

[Edify]

Many verses in the Bible can be understood variously. How often on this site do people consider the same verse and come to completely opposite understandings? How is this possible?
It happens because rather than allowing the Spirit to lead us into truth, we understand the verse or verses according to currently held beliefs. This is true of us all from time to time.
You obviously believe that OSAS is a false doctrine, and there are many verses that teach so. And yet, there are many verses that seem to teach the opposite of this.
Without going into this particular argument, when you come across verses in general that seem to conflict with other verses, what process do you employ to reconcile the perceived differences?

Well, when there's no obvious answer, prayer always helps. It is beneficial that your prayer NOT be slanted one way or the other, because we want real answers, & the real answer might surprise you.
Secondly, I never trust another's interpretation when their explanation is paragraphs long with big complex words. Perhaps you've seen a few in this thread.
Thirdly, all scripture has to be taken as plainly read to be true, unless it's impossible to do so(symbolism, for example). Anything else is explaining it away.
Lastly, NEVER AGREE WITH THE MAJORITY, just because they are. That's a worldly method, & it doesn't work, even for them.
Jesus told us plainly, strait is the gate & narrow is the way, & FEW that be that find it. Today's "few" are outnumbered several to one by false prophets & teachers, proving to us there's only a few among the many that are truly going with the Lord.
If you stand for something righteous, be prepared to stand alone. Understand that no person, no matter how close to you they are, are worth missing out with Christ our Savior.
That's my 2 cents.

 

[Edify]

Can you be more specific?
What do you feel is being done that's deceptive?

Pray, Then look over it for the deception.
If you don't believe me, that's fine, just remember there's nothing to lose if you seek it out.
Remember to look at it from a view where the antagonists may not know what they're doing.
Too many times we're guilty of saying "know Christ", but know very little about our enemy.
Ask yourself, "If I were the devil, how would I do it?"
Be wise as serpents but as harmless as doves.

 

[maxwel]

Pray, Then look over it for the deception.
If you don't believe me, that's fine, just remember there's nothing to lose if you seek it out.
Remember to look at it from a view where the antagonists may not know what they're doing.
Too many times we're guilty of saying "know Christ", but know very little about our enemy.
Ask yourself, "If I were the devil, how would I do it?"
Be wise as serpents but as harmless as doves.

1.) I think you and I have very different positions on this issue of OSAS.
2.) But that doesn't necessitate some kind of intentional deception by either of us.
3.) I genuinely believe the "perseverance of the saints", also called "eternal security of the believer" is overwhelmingly supported by scripture.
4.) I genuinely believe the reason for the disagreement is most often one of differences in hermeneutics, not ill intentions.
5.) Those are my genuine and sincere beliefs, and I have no intention of being deceptive... and I have no reason to suspect you of deception for holding a contrary view.
6.) If we consider that we are all fallen creatures, and we are all imperfect, and we even have imperfect churches and imperfect teachers and imperfect minds... then it is quite possible to reason that some differences between "genuine believers" may simply be due to human frailty and imperfection.
7.) Can division be caused by willful sin or rebellion? Of course. But there may be less nefarious causes to consider.


Those are my quick thoughts.

If you want me to look at something specific, then please point out something specific and I'll take a look.


God Bless.
.

 

[Edify]

Maxwell, I believe in the security of the believer also, but not as some do.
I believe as long as i want to stay with the Lord, no devil in Hell can do anything about it.
However, there is so much teaching on the believer being deceived, esp. by Paul, it confirms what Jesus said about the devil: the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. He doesn't give up after we're saved as if he no longer can.
The teaching on the Falling Away is about saved people who rebel from Christ. It is impossible for any sinner, faker or otherwise to fall away from God when they are already in sin. That whole teaching has to be twisted like a pretzel to accommodate OSAS.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Can you name me one believer who does not struggle with sin?

Can you name me one believer who does not struggle with sin?

There is a big difference between struggling with sin and being dominated by sin.

 

[maxwel]

Maxwell, I believe in the security of the believer also, but not as some do.
I believe as long as i want to stay with the Lord, no devil in Hell can do anything about it.
However, there is so much teaching on the believer being deceived, esp. by Paul, it confirms what Jesus said about the devil: the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. He doesn't give up after we're saved as if he no longer can.
The teaching on the Falling Away is about saved people who rebel from Christ. It is impossible for any sinner, faker or otherwise to fall away from God when they are already in sin. That whole teaching has to be twisted like a pretzel to accommodate OSAS.

"That whole teaching has to be twisted like a pretzel to accommodate OSAS."

Hey Edify, I appreciate you clarifying your position.

I disagree with you on this, and believe there is good evidence for a contrary view, but I also think it's the kind of thing believers should be able to discuss politely.

This is just one of those pivotal issues where both sides get really emotional.
Thanks for talking about this politely.
Give me a shout anytime.

.

 

[Edify]

1 Timothy 2:15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
We must continue in the faith to be saved. No one & done will do.

 

[Edify]

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creationg under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[Edify]

Romans 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Barnes: Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off - Compare John 15:2. The word "thou" refers here to the Gentile churches. In relation to them the favor of God was dependent on their fidelity. If they became disobedient and unbelieving, then the same principle which led him to withdraw his mercy from the Jewish people would lead also to their rejection and exclusion.

 

[Edify]

Meyer's NT Commentary Romans 11:22
ἘΠΕῚ ΚΑῚ ΣῪ ἘΚΚΟΠΉΣῌ] for otherwise thou also (like those broken-off branches) shalt be cut off. The threatening tenor of the discourse suggests unsought the stronger word ἐκκοπ., which is also in Romans 11:24 retained of the wild olive tree.

We may notice that this is a probative passage for the possibility of forfeiture of the state of grace, for the conversio resistibilis and for reiterabilitas gratiae, and also against absolute predestination.

 

[Edify]

Expositor's Greek Testament Romans 11:22
ἐὰν ἐπιμένῃς τῇ χρηστότητι: if you remain on in the goodness, i.e., continue to be indebted to it, and to it alone, for your religious position. This excludes presumption, and in general all such temper as is be trayed in taking an attitude of superiority to the Jews. The Jews lost their standing because they had come to believe that it was indefectible, and independent of moral conditions; and if the Gentiles commit the same mistake they will incur the same doom. It is not to Israel only God may say, The kingdom is taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Edify]

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
if thou continue] On the verb and construction here, see on Romans 6:1. The idea of the word is adherence, either rightly resolute or wrongly obstinate as the case may be.—Observe that expressions like the present, implying contingency in man’s continuance in the mercy of God, and the reality of the exertion of man’s will in such continuance, are in real practical harmony with the truth, so fully stated in previous chapters, of sovereign and prevailing Divine grace (Romans 8:28-30). The whole reason of the harmony is indeed past our finding out, perhaps for ever; but thus much we can see, that sovereign grace acts on men, not on automatons; that it acts on them through the human conscience and will; and that these, in this matter as always, are affected by warnings as truly as by promises.

 

[Edify]

Preacher's Outline and Sermon Bible
The word "continue" (epimenō) means to remain, be steadfast, abide, persevere, endure. The idea is both position and relationship. The believer...
• is positioned in the goodness of God.
• is related to the goodness of God.
It is the picture of a person who is remaining and abiding in the house of God's goodness. A Gentile believer must continue and abide, endure and persevere in the goodness of God, or else he too will be cut off (ekkopēsē PWS: 861) just as the Jews were cut off (Romans 11:17).

 

[Cameron143]

Preacher's Outline and Sermon Bible
The word "continue" (epimenō) means to remain, be steadfast, abide, persevere, endure. The idea is both position and relationship. The believer...
• is positioned in the goodness of God.
• is related to the goodness of God.
It is the picture of a person who is remaining and abiding in the house of God's goodness. A Gentile believer must continue and abide, endure and persevere in the goodness of God, or else he too will be cut off (ekkopēsē PWS: 861) just as the Jews were cut off (Romans 11:17).

So you believe we are saved by grace, but after we are saved we are back under the law?

 

[mailmandan]

What fake gospel is that? The gospel is not you can or can't lose your salvation. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. What gospel are you promoting?

Still no answer JimmyTheLock? You are quick to judge and condemn believers in the OSAS camp, but slow to answer questions. I have found that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.