Loss of salvation???
- Thread starter gratefuloneson
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What must I do to be saved?.........Most of the milk will dribble down your chin.
Says the person who has not bothered to exegete the passage to support their opinion.
Are you calling ALL believers in the OSAS camp "heretics" and condembing them to hell? What do you believe the gospel IS and also what do you believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)
The believer will end up like this....
1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray
and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin
that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.
Note.
The person is not referred to as an ex brother. Or, just a person.
People who think like you, wish to mentally bully people and would like to tell them what to do, or go to Hell.
Your evil belief gives license for your self-righteousness to strut about your emotions.
Self glory is no glory at all.
......
If you believe in Christ you are born of God. Good luck becoming unborn of Him, I'm sure you will have as much success as you would being unborn of your parents.
You should do more research on free will, it is not without it's limits, that is what makes it free.
Or maybe you weren't savvy enough.
And you are stilling failing to address the issue. I stated we can resist God. You seem to think your will is stronger than God's. Try telling that to Balaam, he will disagree with you. There is a point of "not my will but yours be done" whether we like it or not.
Num.22:35
Then the Angel of the Lord said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but only the word that I speak to you, that you shall speak.” So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
Why are you changing the issue? It was not about free will and forsaking God, it was about telling God what He can and cannot do with you. You do you lady and God will do Him. He will remain to the day of redemption, that's His promise.
I'm not giving you push back on the thread, I am disagreeing with you that you think you can override God's will and make him obey you. Big mistake.
I know what it means for the Lord to be faithful to Himself. There is no conflict. You assume it means he will deny us salvation but the context is the Lord being faithful to His promise of salvation to Israel (the nation) even though they denied their Messiah. The Lord keeps His word to save those He promised to save. If faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain, how much does it take to be saved in spite of one's unfaithfulness? If anything, it proves the very opposite of what you claim. Salvation is not as dependent on our faithfulness as one may think but is wholly dependent on the faithfulness of the Lord God.
2Tim.2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
When you have something to teach that is true and within context, it will be different.
She is only repeating what she has accepted from her slave master.If you believe in Christ you are born of God. Good luck becoming unborn of Him, I'm sure you will have as much success as you would being unborn of your parents.
You should do more research on free will, it is not without it's limits, that is what makes it free.
Or maybe you weren't savvy enough.
And you are stilling failing to address the issue. I stated we can resist God. You seem to think your will is stronger than God's. Try telling that to Balaam, he will disagree with you. There is a point of "not my will but yours be done" whether we like it or not.
Num.22:35
Then the Angel of the Lord said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but only the word that I speak to you, that you shall speak.” So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
Why are you changing the issue? It was not about free will and forsaking God, it was about telling God what He can and cannot do with you. You do you lady and God will do Him. He will remain to the day of redemption, that's His promise.
I'm not giving you push back on the thread, I am disagreeing with you that you think you can override God's will and make him obey you. Big mistake.
I know what it means for the Lord to be faithful to Himself. There is no conflict. You assume it means he will deny us salvation but the context is the Lord being faithful to His promise of salvation to Israel (the nation) even though they denied their Messiah. The Lord keeps His word to save those He promised to save. If faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain, how much does it take to be saved in spite of one's unfaithfulness? If anything, it proves the very opposite of what you claim. Salvation is not as dependent on our faithfulness as one may think but is wholly dependent on the faithfulness of the Lord God.
2Tim.2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
When you have something to teach that is true and within context, it will be different.
That's the context...
I listened to all the Christian platitudes when I first believed, they had no more depth of answers then as they do now.
Reality is a "beach", especially when it indwells you bodily and won't leave until the day that body is redeemed.
I have email notifications turned off so can't help you there I'm afraid. Sorry.
This isn’t too extensive a word search. So re: loss of 'salvation' - IMO Heb10:38-39 are an issue - the wording seems very literally to say a man withdrawing himself from living in faith and into apōleia (destruction/annihilation) is a possibility:
Summary list of the uses of apōleia = 1. The destruction that one causes, waste; 2. The destruction that one experiences, annihilation (BDAG Lexicon). I’ll group the 2 different definitions:
Heb10:38-39:
I guess the question according to these discussions is whether destruction/annihilation from willingly withdrawing themselves from living in faith is exactly what some say about God honoring men’s will to go back from being in faith and into destruction/annihilation is loss of salvation.
The verses I summarized from - all the ones that resulted from a Greek word search of apōleia:
Summary list of the uses of apōleia = 1. The destruction that one causes, waste; 2. The destruction that one experiences, annihilation (BDAG Lexicon). I’ll group the 2 different definitions:
- Destruction/annihilation
- A broad gate and way that leads to destruction/annihilation that many enter through (Matt7:13)
- Jesus calls Judas Iscariot ‘the son of destruction/annihilation’ who was lost/destroyed (appolumi) (John17:12)
- Peter rebuked Simon the sorcerer that he and his silver may be for destruction/annihilation (Acts8:20)
- Paul remarked that the Roman custom is not for a man to be delivered to destruction/annihilation without answering his accusers (Acts25:16)
- God bore with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction/annihilation (Rom9:22)
- Paul contrasts destruction/annihilation with salvation (Phil1:28)
- The enemies of the cross whose end is destruction/annihilation (Phil3:19)
- Believers or unbelievers?
- The apostacy/rebellion/abandonment/breach of faith will come and the man of lawlessness / the son of the destruction/annihilation will be revealed (2Thess2:3)
- [Men] wanting to be rich fall into temptation and a trap and many foolish/dim-witted and harmful desires – whatever sinks the men into ruin and destruction/annihilation (1Tim6:9)
- Just as there were false prophets, there will be false teachers among believers – they will introduce destructive factions/sects, denying the Master who bought them, bring upon themselves quick destruction/annihilation (2Pet2:1)
- Many will follow the destructive ways of false teachers and the way of the truth will be slandered/defamed/blasphemed (2Pet2:2)
- False teachers by fabricated words will buy & sell/engage in business/cheat [believers] – their judgement has not become idle and their destruction/annihilation is not sleeping (2Pet2:3)
- The heavens and the earth are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and The beast is going to destruction/annihilation of ungodly men (2Pet3:7)
- Ignorant and weak/unstable [men] twist/distort Paul’s writings and the rest of the Scriptures to their own destruction/annihilation (2Pet3:16)
- The beast is going to destruction/annihilation (Rev17:8)
- The beast is going to destruction/annihilation (Rev17:11)
- Destruction/waste
- Waste of expensive oil (Matt26:8; Mark4:4)
Heb10:38-39:
- The righteous man will live from faith (vs. not enduring & throwing away their confidence/boldness Heb10:35-37)
- If a man shrinks back/withdraws himself (from being a righteous man who will live from faith)– maybe he will & maybe he won’t – then God’s soul takes no pleasure/satisfaction/does not see him as good or worthy
- We are not of timidity/shrinking back/evasion into destruction/annihilation
- We are of faith into preserving/saving of soul
I guess the question according to these discussions is whether destruction/annihilation from willingly withdrawing themselves from living in faith is exactly what some say about God honoring men’s will to go back from being in faith and into destruction/annihilation is loss of salvation.
The verses I summarized from - all the ones that resulted from a Greek word search of apōleia:
- (Matt. 7:13 NKJ) "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
- (Matt. 26:8 NKJ) But when His disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, "Why this waste?
- (Mk. 14:4 NKJ) But there were some who were indignant among themselves, and said, "Why was this fragrant oil wasted?
- (Jn. 17:12 NKJ) "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
- (Acts 8:20 NKJ) But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
- (Acts 25:16 NKJ) "To them I answered, 'It is not the custom of the Romans to deliver any man to destruction before the accused meets the accusers face to face, and has opportunity to answer for himself concerning the charge against him.'
- (Rom. 9:22 NKJ) What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
- (Phil. 1:28 NKJ) and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God.
- (Phil. 3:19 NKJ) whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame-- who set their mind on earthly things.
- (2 Thess. 2:3 NKJ) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
- (1 Tim. 6:9 NKJ) But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.
- (Heb. 10:39 NKJ) But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
- (2 Pet. 2:1 NKJ) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
- (2 Pet. 2:2 NKJ) And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. (2 Pet. 2:2 NKJ)
- (2 Pet. 2:3 NKJ) By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
- (2 Pet. 3:7 NKJ) But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
- (2 Pet. 3:16 NKJ) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
- (Rev. 17:8 NKJ) "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
- (Rev. 17:11 NKJ) "And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
Again, the website I use as a study tool seems to have gone commercial and I've only realized that it must have at one point been ad free, and the promotional banners inviting me to go 'ad-free' shut down any of my attempts to search out citations that come to mind so, I can only offer the wilting petals of the remnants of my recall. It is stated that the OC was not perfect because it depended on the imperfection of man to achieve its goal. On the other hand, the declaration of the NC leaves all dependence on perfect love, which is promised as having the capability to cast out fear, exactly the tool that the power of death uses to enslave its captives to sin. By Christ, death has been 'destingered' and, by default, so sin's affect is also 'neutralized' considering sin provides death its power. At any point in which we stop believing that, then it would follow that the law be reverted back to the OC standard of treatment, or so it seems to me.
Bingo. And when you first hear a teacher that "has it" , what a relief. One can truly live in His freedom.
I cant imagine going back to the dog and pony show.
How do you explain that to one who is caught up in the "Christian platitudes?"..........I guess they have to go through their desert also.
that all comes with the sanctification on the ride back to shore. After he is pulled from the water(justified). He is dried off and warmed up. He regains his strength. He’s given dry clean dry clothes to put on. He is taught how to not fall out the boat again. He realizes he is loved and worth saving. The boat finally gets back to shore (glorification).
Destruction is not congruent to annihilation.
ἀπώλεια apṓleia, ap-o'-li-a; from a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):—damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.
To annihilate means to make into non-existence which comes from the Latin word "ad nihilum" nothingness.
At what point does a Christian become a fallen angel? On the first sin, or the tenth.
What can I say?
Dumb questions abound on these Forums.
Got any more??
Why do you want to know?
Maybe you'd like to get to JUST BEFORE THE DIVIDING LINE with sinning...
and not go over it???
Ask God this question.
HE has more patience than we mere mortals.
And
You're posting to someone that hasn't been around in about 2 years.
