Loss of salvation???

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Are you talking to ME???? I never said, "But you said grace means we can just live in sin"

That was my takeaway from your post:

So I can sleep around on my wife.

Live in the bars every night.

I wonder how many things to list?

I can live anyway I want and do anything I like just believe and keep my faith in JESUS and I'm good to go.

If we rely entirely on grace it means we get to do all these things without limit, isn't that your objection?


We are saved by grace, GOD graciously gave us water for us to remove our sins when we get baptized in JESUS wonderful name!

It's was JESUS who did that nothing we can do except OBEY!!

Ephesians 2:10 KJV
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Much love!
 
Are you sure there's no carrot & stick here?
It's axiomatic. Do this, and that results. In this case, have this expectation, self purification results.

And yes, John does go on to speak plainly about sin. That doesn't change the truth of what he had just written.

Much love!
 
Excellent choice of Scriptures , John chatter 10 is a great chapter as well , verse 28 And I give unto them eternal life ; and they shall never perish …. We are in Jesus hand and also the father’s hand , that’s an eternal hand ! Amen praise God !
In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)
 
The pulpit-pounder I referred to was RBT and that was his repeated faith-alone statement.

Many pulpits are pounded with different dogma.

"Works" still need better definition.
And He was one of them that has it right.

We have a choice after our choice of trusting in Christ ALONE for our salvation.

Abundant life or misery?........But our eternal life always remains.

The narrow road or the broad road that leads to destruction. Our choice.

Works is more of a mental attitude than it is overt works.......True divine works are Invisible to most.
 
That was my takeaway from your post:



If we rely entirely on grace it means we get to do all these things without limit, isn't that your objection?




Ephesians 2:10 KJV
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Much love!

NO IT WAS NOT, it's a lie from satan and no way would I ever say that!!!

In stead of saying you wrong you just say that!!!

DUDE THAT WAS A QUESTION TO SOMEONE READ MY RESPONSE TO YOU!!!

POST # 7,274
"LOL, it was a question, I was asking someone if there are any conditions to being reborn and staying reborn.

Was told just "Believe using the faith HE has given us"

So that was my question to him."


Now somehing we can work with, tell me what does Eph 2:10 have to do with when we obey and get bapitzed to remove our sins?

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 22:16
King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
 
It's axiomatic. Do this, and that results. In this case, have this expectation, self purification results.

And yes, John does go on to speak plainly about sin. That doesn't change the truth of what he had just written.

Much love!

I guess this is the rub re: eternal security - 1John3:3 is axiomatic but then we have several verses that clarify what self-purification means to make certain believers know continued faith-obedience - in this sense of self-purification - means no sin/lawlessness, doing righteousness, abiding in Christ, love for one another, manifesting characteristics of being God's children, etc. And then the seemingly everlasting question between systems of theology - what if this clarification of self-cleansing is not taking place?
 
NO IT WAS NOT, it's a lie from satan and no way would I ever say that!!!

In stead of saying you wrong you just say that!!!

DUDE THAT WAS A QUESTION TO SOMEONE READ MY RESPONSE TO YOU!!!

POST # 7,274
"LOL, it was a question, I was asking someone if there are any conditions to being reborn and staying reborn.


Was told just "Believe using the faith HE has given us"

So that was my question to him."
Hey, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

So just to clarify . . . you do not consider a permissive attitude towards sin to be a problem that results from believing all sin is forgiven, and we are saved by grace through faith, not having anything to do with our works?

I had thought this was what you were expressing, that someone who thinks salvation is solely through faith, that they will think can can freely sin.

I'm happy to be wrong!!

Much love!
 
Who else said its difficult and why is it so difficult to understand? I don't believe it's hard to understand. I believe that it's hard for certain folks to accept. Particularly folks who promote works righteousness.
You even received a very nice post from someone that also understands your post was not clear...
Wonder if you ever gave a reply?


Straw man argument. I never said that.
If you like the word OBEY...
what are we debating here?

I can clearly state that we must obey God.
Why don't you?

You also don't care for the word MUST.
As if we had a choice to either obey jesus or not.

Jesus issues commands that His disciples will need to follow
IF they wish to be His disciples.

John 15:14
14 You are my friends if you do what I command



Note:
You are my friends IF you do what I command.

If you do what I command, you are my friends...
If you DO NOT DO what I command, you are not my friends.

Simple English.

The IF creates a condition that requires following.


Another straw man argument. I simply point out the distinction between the obedient act of choosing to believe in the Son unto salvation and multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son and having already obtained salvation.
you CHOSE to obey in the Son for salvation?


AFTER salvation.....

Do you NOT CHOOSE to obey the Son?

We're speaking about AFTER salvation MMD.

NO Christian I know believes his good works will cause him to be right with God FOR SALVATION...
for justification.


Those who have not obeyed are those who have not believed.

WHY would an unbeliever need to obey??

We're speaking of believers.
Believers are required to obey Jesus.


That is obedience which "follows" salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-10) We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works.
That sounds pretty close.

So if we are saved for good works...
it means we are to do good works.....?

So we agree?


The straw man arguments continue. I have no problem with the word works. I simply put works in their proper place. Subsequent to regeneration and salvation.
I also put works in their proper sequence.

So we could agree now?


Amen! (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26 etc..).

Amen! Those who do not obey the Son by refusing to believe in the Son will see the wrath of God.
Oh.
Excuse me.
I just realized you're using a new tactic now!

But it's not new Dan.

Those who do not believe will see the wrath of God.
Jesus said so Himself in

John 3:18
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


It's just confirming my statements:
UNBELIEVERS are not required to obey ...
they are condemned already.

Believers have obeyed. Unbelievers have not obeyed.

If believers obey,,,,
why are believers told to obey?

I do wonder if the problem is the English language...
maybe it's too difficult...
or if it's the unwillingness to accept what JESUS taught.


Because they have not obeyed by choosing to believe. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You're using John 3:18 to support your claim that believers choose to believe and thus obey Jesus to believe in Him?

OK.

What about after we're saved?
Should we CONTINUE to CHOOSE to believe in the commands of Jesus?
 
OK
I wasn't going to respond,
but I see that @mailmandan gave you a LIKE.

Let me assure you sawdust...
I know what mailmandan believes since I've been posting to him
for about 10 years.

The reason I didn't UNDERSTAND what he wrote...
is because what he wrote is CONVOLUTED and not understandable.

Except by those who vehemently agree with ANYTHING HE STATES.

I, OTOH, like to understand to what I'm replying.
I'm not here to waste my time ...
I'm here to have serious convesation.


Instead of criticizing maybe you should have asked for further clarification?

You could have fooled me on that last line as you seem to be very quick to dismiss those who disagree with you and as noted above, prefer judgment over clarification.

I find it hard to take you seriously to be honest, but that could just be me. Responding to a post because somebody liked it and you don't? Hardly gives one confidence one is dealing with an open mind. :unsure:
 
And He was one of them that has it right.

We have a choice after our choice of trusting in Christ ALONE for our salvation.

Abundant life or misery?........But our eternal life always remains.

The narrow road or the broad road that leads to destruction. Our choice.

Works is more of a mental attitude than it is overt works.......True divine works are Invisible to most.

Opinion not shared by all, as you know.

I'll bypass your emphasis for a moment. It means different things to different believers as it's come down through history.

Your last statement is interesting. It's all mentality at first. Genuine Faith - the Faith of Christ - includes obedience and works in the newborn. That's part of the new mentality we begin with - created in Christ Jesus according to God in true righteousness and holiness for good works. It will manifest outwardly or there's a problem. Some think the slogan "faith-alone" and some related teachings has become part of the problem. Depending on the discussion, I'm likely one who agrees it can be a problem.
 
I guess this is the rub re: eternal security - 1John3:3 is axiomatic but then we have several verses that clarify what self-purification means to make certain believers know continued faith-obedience - in this sense of self-purification - means no sin/lawlessness, doing righteousness, abiding in Christ, love for one another, manifesting characteristics of being God's children, etc. And then the seemingly everlasting question between systems of theology - what if this clarification of self-cleansing is not taking place?
It all comes down to our soteriology. I find in Scripture that we are reconciled to God in Christ, and not in anything we've done or not done. For me, this is definitive. What I do not gain by good works I do not lose by bad works.

The thinking that I can lose my salvation frames salvation in an ongoing transactional nature, we keep going back to the store to make our next layaway payment of good works, so we don't lose our salvation.

I understand my salvation to be of a covenantal nature, and that covenent based in what Jesus did. Entering into that covenant is our salvation, and the ongoing part is our sanctification, discipling, training in holiness and righteousness.

God has made us holy, in that He has set us apart for Himself. To live holy means to live according to His intent for us. When we are first reborn, we have to be trained by God to walk in the Way. And while Scripture speaks of our maturity, it also speaks of this training continuing throughout our lives.

How do we say that because we are still being trained, and as a result of our continuing lack of maturity, continue to make bad choices, continue to have baseless fears, or whatever it is that leads us to sin, yielding to our flesh, where is the cut off? How many sins before you are lost again?

I see our relationship with our Father as just that, He is Father, we His children, and He will chasten us as needed, but He doesn't disown us. Too much in Scripture assures me that He does not disown us, return us to flesh life, without His Spirit.

Yes, touching on security, there are many passages that make plain statements that would be rendered untrue if the regenerate were to again become unregenerate, I am compelled to accept them for what they plainly say.

I spent several years, some time ago, gathering up every list of Scriptures that people put on line to show that salvation could be lost. I wanted to examine everyone's arguments that I was wrong, I value truth. It's meaningless if it's not real. Not only did I learn that not one of these hundreds of verses I examined actually did say one's salvation could be lost, but I found that many of them actually affirmed the opposite, that nothing will ever separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 12 contains one of the most wonderful promises in the Bible, in my view. He has promised not only to chasten me as needed, but He has also promised that His chastening will be effect, resulting in the peaceable works of righteousness.

Who is it who would slip through His safety net? I mean, I'm not saying, just charge into sin, knowing He'll spank you before you go too far. My friend put it this way, "I learned the fear of the Lord when I realized how much He can mess with me life!" Chastening can be exceedingly grievous. He tears, and He binds up. That's how it works. The point is, it DOES work. None are lost.

Much love!
 
I have been cracking up also. Nothing like a good joke.

Why do you feel badly about the reformed?
You think predestination is like being Catholic?

That's a good question. I wouldn't be able to answer that question in a 100% certainty, but I definitely think there is scripture support for predestination. No doubt about it. Now if your laughing at the memes, there is a possibility there is truth in there.. Yes?!?!

Ephesians 1:4-5

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,



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images

Oh no.
You want to get SERIOUS!!

Are all "arminians" antinomians?? (The Godfather)

"Arminians" think John Piper's view can't be found in the bible.

And, yeah, I can't be Calvinist, I'm late A LOT!
(oh wait....that's what God predestined for me!)

What I meant about Catholics is that whenever they try to engage in conversation,
it invariably always gets back to them being Catholic and how non-Christian that denomination is.

Ditto for the reformed. Sooner or later any discussion turns back to reformed theology.
It must be frustrating.

As to Ephesians...
here are your verses.

Ephesians 1:4-5

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Predestination is in the NT.
The question is: What is predestined?

Ephesians clearly states it:

We are predestined to be adopted as son BY/THROUGH Jesus Christ.
According to the good pleasure of God's will...His good pleasure is referring to His plan of redemption.

God chose us from the beginning....to be holy and blameless before Him by His love for us --- again, of course, through Jesus.

It's never an individual person that is being addressed in any scripture...
but the predestination is always in reference to:
METHOD....HOW WE ARE SAVED
PURPOSE....GOD MAY HAVE A SPECIFIC PURPOSE FOR A PEROSN.
 
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Hey, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

So just to clarify . . . you do not consider a permissive attitude towards sin to be a problem that results from believing all sin is forgiven, and we are saved by grace through faith, not having anything to do with our works?

I had thought this was what you were expressing, that someone who thinks salvation is solely through faith, that they will think can can freely sin.

I'm happy to be wrong!!

Much love!

No issue we all can make mistakes!!

ALL of us.
 
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FWIW, the more I worked with the word "synergism" the less I liked it. I instead at this time prefer how you elaborated and said "cooperation". Synergism can tend to infer that we bring to the table more than we do. I'm not asserting anything dogmatically, just putting forth some of the results of looking at some definitions and watching arguments. Using the Text I'm seeing more of a willingly cooperative abiding/continual faith-obedience, while sunergeo seems to be used more in the sense of believers working together with the Lord and one another in the work of the Ekklesia.

As a stand against monergism, I understand it and agree with the concept.
How could you agree with monergism but also agree with cooperation?
Monergism means God does everything and we do nothing.

As to synergism,,,my understanding is that it DOES mean precisely what you've stated (and which I had also stated)....
cooperation with God in our salvation.

We desire to live a life pleasing to God...
God helps us, in whatever way, mostly through the Holy Spirit.

I got this from Gemini and agree with the definition.
I've never understood it to be anything more....

And you mention in the work of the Ekklesia.
Are you referring to the Body of Christ?
Never heard this before.
Could you link something or explain??
 
Opinion not shared by all, as you know.

I'll bypass your emphasis for a moment. It means different things to different believers as it's come down through history.

Your last statement is interesting. It's all mentality at first. Genuine Faith - the Faith of Christ - includes obedience and works in the newborn. That's part of the new mentality we begin with - created in Christ Jesus according to God in true righteousness and holiness for good works. It will manifest outwardly or there's a problem. Some think the slogan "faith-alone" and some related teachings has become part of the problem. Depending on the discussion, I'm likely one who agrees it can be a problem.
No matter our definition of works, true divine works cannot come until we are sealed with the Spirit.

Which makes faith alone in Christ alone true. Apart from being saved and in the Spirit....there is no obedience. There are no works.

Salvation must come first.......Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. Sealed with the Spirit and given eternal life......Only then can the believer participate in obedience and works. Through the Holy Spirit.

No salvation.....no works.
 
7259 wasn’t ouch.
Won't go back to check...but it was ouch that asked a question, which was this:

My words:
If faith alone is all that is necessary, does this mean I could cheat on my spouse, get drunk...and some other sinful type action.

The meaning of SOLA FIDE has changed, as I believe I've stated.

It used to mean that we are saved, justified, by faith alone...which is 100% correct.
This is what Luther believed and why he tried to reform the CC.

Some now use this phrase to mean that AFTER we're saved, we are still required to have no other attitude beyond faith alone.

IOW,,, a person needs to do nothing....no works/good deeds required...
no cooperation with God required...
God does it all,,,we need do nothing in order to further the Kingdom of God here on earth.

Some will go so far as to say that our works are like dirty rags.
Some will go so far as to say that we SIN by trying to "help God" in our salvation.

So it comes down to this:
Does God do it all....

or are we supposed to be obeying Jesus and follow His commands?


PS
I think you missed my post no. 7291
 
Who else said its difficult and why is it so difficult to understand? I don't believe it's hard to understand. I believe that it's hard for certain folks to accept. Particularly folks who promote works righteousness.

I thought I understood your post. Correct me if I am wrong but essentially you said "believing the word of God is obeying". Whether that is for initial salvation or for subsequent salvation (sanctification). This is why we are saved by grace, through faith. Eph.2:8

For without faith no-one can please God, Heb.11:6 therefore anything that is done must flow from faith or it is worthless no matter how much you give to the poor, or clothe the naked etc.

There are those who would argue against faith alone as if James was comparing dead faith as an actual reality. Dead faith doesn't exist, that was James' point. Only when one trusts the word of God to be true and relies on it (believe), does that belief get converted to saving faith by means of the grace given and the power that is in the word (faith comes from the word Rom.10:17 ). Then the good works that the Lord has prepared for us will naturally flow forth from that faith and not merely from guilt, fear or pride regarding obedience to a list of rules as the method to be saved and the Christian way of life.

John 20:31
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Anyone who would claim we don't like the word "obey" simply is ignorant as far as I am concerned, for there is nothing that makes us happier than to believe in the word of God. His word is truth and life and the riches of contentment flow from believing His word.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
 
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Oh no.
You want to get SERIOUS!!

Are all "arminians" antinomians?? (The Godfather)

"Arminians" think John Piper's view can't be found in the bible.

And, yeah, I can't be Calvinist, I'm late A LOT!
(oh wait....that's what God predestined for me!)

What I meant about Catholics is that whenever they try to engage in conversation,
it invariably always gets back to them being Catholic and how non-Christian that denomination is.

Ditto for the reformed. Sooner or later any discussion turns back to reformed theology.
It must be frustrating.

As to Ephesians...
here are your verses.

Ephesians 1:4-5

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Predestination is in the NT.
The question is: What is predestined?

Ephesians clearly states it:

We are predestined to be adopted as son BY/THROUGH Jesus Christ.
According to the good pleasure of God's will...His good pleasure is referring to His plan of redemption.

God chose us from the beginning....to be holy and blameless before Him by His love for us --- again, of course, through Jesus.

It's never an individual person that is being addressed in any scripture...
but the predestination is always in reference to:
METHOD....HOW WE ARE SAVED
PURPOSE....GOD MAY HAVE A SPECIFIC PURPOSE FOR A PEROSN.

300 pages for method and purpose of how salvation works?

Nahhhhh

Ummm. I don't like to argue, it's a waste... State your case, can't agree, move on...

Let me summarize, you don't agree with Calvin, I do. Da end...

that's the beauty of memes.

images


images


images
 
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It all comes down to our soteriology. I find in Scripture that we are reconciled to God in Christ, and not in anything we've done or not done. For me, this is definitive. What I do not gain by good works I do not lose by bad works.

The thinking that I can lose my salvation frames salvation in an ongoing transactional nature, we keep going back to the store to make our next layaway payment of good works, so we don't lose our salvation.

I understand my salvation to be of a covenantal nature, and that covenent based in what Jesus did. Entering into that covenant is our salvation, and the ongoing part is our sanctification, discipling, training in holiness and righteousness.

God has made us holy, in that He has set us apart for Himself. To live holy means to live according to His intent for us. When we are first reborn, we have to be trained by God to walk in the Way. And while Scripture speaks of our maturity, it also speaks of this training continuing throughout our lives.

How do we say that because we are still being trained, and as a result of our continuing lack of maturity, continue to make bad choices, continue to have baseless fears, or whatever it is that leads us to sin, yielding to our flesh, where is the cut off? How many sins before you are lost again?

I see our relationship with our Father as just that, He is Father, we His children, and He will chasten us as needed, but He doesn't disown us. Too much in Scripture assures me that He does not disown us, return us to flesh life, without His Spirit.

Yes, touching on security, there are many passages that make plain statements that would be rendered untrue if the regenerate were to again become unregenerate, I am compelled to accept them for what they plainly say.

I spent several years, some time ago, gathering up every list of Scriptures that people put on line to show that salvation could be lost. I wanted to examine everyone's arguments that I was wrong, I value truth. It's meaningless if it's not real. Not only did I learn that not one of these hundreds of verses I examined actually did say one's salvation could be lost, but I found that many of them actually affirmed the opposite, that nothing will ever separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 12 contains one of the most wonderful promises in the Bible, in my view. He has promised not only to chasten me as needed, but He has also promised that His chastening will be effect, resulting in the peaceable works of righteousness.

Who is it who would slip through His safety net? I mean, I'm not saying, just charge into sin, knowing He'll spank you before you go too far. My friend put it this way, "I learned the fear of the Lord when I realized how much He can mess with me life!" Chastening can be exceedingly grievous. He tears, and He binds up. That's how it works. The point is, it DOES work. None are lost.

Much love!

Sounds like well thought out eternal security (Reformed or Free-Grace or??), which I likely will disagree with.

No way for me to get into it all with you apart from just letting time disclose the details of how you interpret various Scriptures. We already have some tension in 1John3.

It's my guess we'll agree and disagree along the way. Such is theology.
 
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