Well, I am good with testing following the beginning of faithing, but I do not see how you understand Jesus to be teaching step #4
via the parable of the sower/seed, so please explain your thinking regarding that.
Can English translations be trusted with regards to John Chapter 3?
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Well, I am good with testing following the beginning of faithing, but I do not see how you understand Jesus to be teaching step #4
via the parable of the sower/seed, so please explain your thinking regarding that.
Ok GHW, I think I'm able to post again.
Thanks for offering to help me with that.
Your question about the parable of the sower being put where I put it in the salvation process is a good question.
Thank you for taking the time to try and really understand what I'm saying here, your questions reflect that effort.
I've asked myself that same question, and have never followed it up with the research to support it. I've relied heavily on my experience to keep Gods word straight.
Give me a little bit to give you a good answer. I translated Luke last year, so I'll go t through that and get back to you in a few.
When I bring this topic of salvation to an open forum, I get a lot of pushback which is to be expected. But every once in a while I get a question, a right question that gets me excited. The excitement is from knowing God is now involved in the discussion for a purpose only He knows.
I'll produce evidence to support the parable of the sower happening, and when it happens in my understanding. Then maybe we can get our discussion back on track.
Glad I could help. Actually, it was a minor miracle that I could help with a technical problem.
Here is what I have gleaned regarding the Parable of the Sower:
TOJ #81: Be teachable/humble. [Matt. 13:3-23//Mark 4:3-9&13-20//Luke 8:5-8&11-15] In Matthew 11:29 the word “yoke” represents humility, while teachability is literally denoted by Jesus’ command to learn (cf. Pro. 11:2). The Parable of the Sower is a fictional story that conveys a literal truth related to several other TOJ: on LGW (TOJ #3), on perseverance (#60), on worry (#40), and on humility (#10).
Three attitudes opposed to teachability include: a hard heart or closed mind (v.11-15), a shallow or insincere desire to learn, and worries or materialism. {Matt. 18:4//Mark 9:37}
Regarding how they relate to step #4, perhaps they begin as testing and end as failing the test.
Do we need to move/continue this discussion on another more appropriate thread?
The parable of the sower. LK. 8:4-15.
Keys to the parable of the sower.
1) POTS is the key to understanding all of the parables. Jesus said if we don't understand the POTS, we can't understand any of the parables.
2) Here are the key words in the verses.
A) Vs 4. people 3793, gathered together 4876, city 4172, spake 2036, parable 3850.
B) Vs 5, sower 4687, went out 1831, sow 4687, seed 4703, sowed 4687, fell 4098, wayside 3598, trodden down 2662, fouls 4071, devoured 2719.
C) Vs 6, fell 4098, rock 4098, sprang up 5453, withered away 3583, lacked 2192, moister 2429.
D) Vs 7, fell 4098, thorns 173 x2, sprang up 4855, choked 1970.
E) Vs 8, fell 4098, good 18, ground 1093, sprang up 5453, bare 4160, fruit 2590, cried 5455, ears 3775, hear 191, let hear 191,.
F) Vs 9, disciples 3101, asked 1905, parable 3850.
G) Vs 10, said 2036, given 1325, know 1097, mysteries 3466, kingdom 932, God 2316, parables 3850, seeing 991, see 991, hearing 191, understand4920 .
H) Vs 11, parable 3850, seed 4703, word 3056, God 2316.
I) Vs 12, wayside 3598, hear 191, devil 1228, taking away 142, word 3056, hearts 2588, "believe 4100 pisteuo" saved 4982,
J) Vs 13, rock 4073, hear 191, recieve 1209, word 3056, joy 5479, root 4491, "believe 4100 pisteuo" temptation 3956, fall away 868.
K) Vs 14, fell 4098, thorns 173, heard 191, go forth 4198, choked 4846, cares 3308, riches 4149, pleasures 2237, life 979, bring fruit 2570, perfection 5052.
L) Vs 15, good 18, ground 1093, honest 2570, good 18, heart 2588, heard 191, word 3056, keep 2722, fruit 2592, patience 5281.
With the ground work laid , here is how i discerned Lk. 8:4-15.
4) And when a large group of people were gathered together, and were coming unto Him from every city, He spoke by placing one truth along side another truth.
5) A seed scatterer went out to scatter his seed: and he scattered the seed, some fell down on a natural path; and it was trampled under foot, and the birds of the air ate it down.
6) And some fell down upon a rock: and as soon as it germinated, it shriveled and dried up, because it lacked dampness.
7) And some fell down in the middle of the briers: and the briers germinated with it and overgrew it.
8) And a different one fell down on good soil, and it germinated, and produced a 100 times as much fruit. And when He had uttered these thoughts, He called out, He that has ears that hear, let them hear and comprehend.
9) And His learners inquired of Him, uttering these thoughts. What does this truth laid alongside another truth mean?
10) And He spoke this unto them. Unto you it is given to understand completely, the divine revelation of the royal power and dominion of the supreme deity: but to the remaining ones, i lay one truth alongside another truth, that perceiving and observing they are not able to observe, perceive and discern. and though hearing they are not able to understand.
11) Now the truth laid down beside another truth is this: the seed is the divine expressions of the supreme deity.
12) Those on the natural path are they that can hear: then the accuser, came in and lifted up and out the divine revelation out of their seat of moral and spiritual life, otherwise they would personally surrender their lives to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender, and be delivered and protected.
13) those that fell down on the rock are they , which when they hear, recieve the divine revelation with cheerfulness; and these ones have no connection with the source or origin, which for a while they personally surrender their lives to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender, but in the time of testing fall away and depart.
14) and those which fell down in the middle of the briers are those, that when they had heard, go forward, and are completely strangled with the different distractions and natural desires and the lusts of this livelihood
15) But those on good ground are those, who in their valuable virtuous seat of moral and spiritual life, having heard the divine revelation hold it down fast, and bring forward fertile ground for the fruit of righteousness, with cheerful and constant endurance.
This happening is the piece of the path that happens, and happens at the testing period, the grafting period. The POTS happens "before" the Holy spirit is indwelt in the faither.
In verse 13, it even mentions the "time of testing".
The POTS can't be put in the process at any other time or place that i can see. If we move it to another spot in the process, it causes other steps to not be where they need to be, or changes our state of being in that part of the process.
What do you think GHW, can we move to step 5?
To the world.. what your saying is clear yet to us "the words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life". The first thing that came to mind. We trust in have faith in Him that is in us.. and oh the sweet sweet holy Spirit.. Luke 11;13
Be nice if even the Greek was the same it is not. John 3:16. I give just two.. "Thus for loved God the world that the Son His the only begotten he gave, that everyone the believing on him not may perish but may have life eternal"
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish
but have eternal life"
Did He come in flesh? yes.. Was He buried? Yes... Did He rise and is now seated at the right hand of the Father? Yes. Who do men say I am "“You are the Mashiach, the Son of the living God.”
"“You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.”
Be nice if even the Greek was the same it is not. John 3:16. I give just two.. "Thus for loved God the world that the Son His the only begotten he gave, that everyone the believing on him not may perish but may have life eternal"
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish
but have eternal life"
Did He come in flesh? yes.. Was He buried? Yes... Did He rise and is now seated at the right hand of the Father? Yes. Who do men say I am "“You are the Mashiach, the Son of the living God.”
"“You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.”
I still don't know what the problem was, but it seems to be fixed. If you had something to do with that, thanks again.
As for translating the POTS, what i do, is because pisteuo needed a complete definition to be correctly understood, rather than trying to choose a single word, i do that with every word in the NT.
For study purposes, I take each word in scripture, look up the exact definition, log it, then translate it with the definitions rather than just one word. I'm working on doing this with the entire NT. I figured it will take 10 years, I'm about halfway through it.
I think you are going to a lot of trouble to come up with yet another translation of GW. However, I also have gone to a lot of trouble
to provide this commentary on The Parable of the Seeds (Matt. 13:1-23):
In this parable a farmer sowed seed on four types of soil: a path, rocky ground, thorny ground, and fertile soil–with appropriate results. Discerning the meaning involved understanding the metaphors that were used, most of which were explained by Jesus in v.18-23: seed = GW re the KOH, understands = believes, healed = saved, ears = normal adult souls, hear = be good seed. The apparent meaning of the parable per v. 9 is thus, “Let all accountable souls be allowed to hear and be saved.”
However, this meaning is made problematic by what Jesus told his disciples between relating the parable and then explaining its meaning (v.10-11) regarding his purpose of speaking in parables: “The knowledge of the secrets of the KOH has been given to you (disciples), but not to them (the rest of the people).”
Jesus said (in v.14-15) the people fulfilled Isa. 6:9-10, which says in part, “you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused… Otherwise they might… turn, and I would heal them.”
In v.12 Jesus said, “Whoever has will be given more… and whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”
A person might interpret what Jesus said regarding the secrets to mean that he wanted them to remain unknown except by his disciples, but a few verses later in Matt. 13:34 it says that Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill “what was spoken through the prophet: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world”, which implies that he wants to share the secrets with the people.
Thus, unless these statements (Matt. 13:10-17 & 13:34-35) can be harmonized, one must choose between two contradictory interpretations: 1. Jesus purposefully hid knowledge from some while revealing it to others according to His will, or 2. Jesus allowed souls to reject saving knowledge or to accept it and be his disciples. Deciding which understanding to adopt necessitates considering the other parables of Jesus.
In The Parable of the Weeds (Matt. 13:24-30), the mention of Judgment and the opposite destinies of happiness or hell indicates that Jesus employed parables as a means of pre-sifting souls by showing who would understand/believe or not. Some people opine that God/Jesus causes people to believe–or not, but notice that in Matt. 13:10-15 Jesus did NOT say that he prevents people from becoming his disciples or that he causes people’s hearts to be calloused, so let us be careful not to pre-sift ourselves by projecting our own hatred onto the all-loving Christ.
The omnilove of Jesus is indicated by such Scriptures as Matt. 23:37, in which Jesus lamented over Jerusalem’s lack of repentance or rejection of his preaching (cf. Matt. 22:39, John 3:16, Rom. 5:6-8, 1Tim. 2:3-4). Note that Jesus explained the Parable of the Seeds in plain language and that The Parable of the Tenants passage (Matt. 21:33-46) indicated his enemies understood he was being critical of them. The Parable of the Bags of Gold (Matt. 25:14-30) indicated that people receive various amounts of information and are judged on the basis of what they do with it, which agrees with Matt. 13:12.
Thus, all souls are tested during their earthly existence, with some passing and producing fruit and others failing and reaping destruction, so yes, the test is passed when sinners accept Christ/receive the HS and the step of producing fruit begins.
Is that step #5?
BTW, I do not see the "time of testing" in v. 13, but it is implied in v. 21-22.
So true! I remember when I was younger, my teacher gave us an exercise with a chair. He asked, "Do you believe your chairs will hold your weight and refrain from collapsing under you as you sit down?" After we answered that we did, he made a great point that since we had believed the chair would do what it was meant to do, we had established trust in the chair and therefore, our actions should demonstrate our trust in said chair, meaning we should sit down in confidencethat our chair won't collapse. Similarly, if we believe in the redemptive work of Jesus on the cross, then our actions should reflect that trust through the way we conduct ourselves in daily activities.
Not sure what PM stands for, so I doubt I have them.
However, if you are wanting to discuss this question on a more appropriate thread,
I invite you to introduce it on "The Didache: Doctrines That Build on the Creed".
Good luck!
The reason I discontinued my discussion with you is that when we begun this process of looking at the salvation process, we agreed that Faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo were 1) a firm conviction. 2) a personal surrender to Him. 3) a life inspired by such surrender.
When we got to the last step, you said i was "again" coming up with my own definitions for faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo.
I've never wavered in 38 years of what my understanding of pisteuo is. And I back it up with the exact definition given by the Vines Greek dictionary.
I see some of your other posts and you agree with some who think salvation is a moment of belief, then the spirit of Christ is given. I don't know if you do that for the unity part of these discussions which I know is very important to you. But it feels like you just pulled the rug out from under me when that happened.
I enjoy our discussions, and we can have disagreement and still sharpen our swords. But the foundational truths, we have to be on the same page.
I'm willing to begin again on a better thread. Could you bump the one you referenced?
As you seem to have noticed, it is hard to translate from one language into another and not lose something. Even reading English from a few hundred years ago can be difficult, as some words have changed how they are commonly understood. But in some cases, such as with the word "believe" translating "pisteo", there are not any other simple options. If we do not use the work "believe", we would likely need several words, maybe even a paragraph, so one must choose between accuracy and readability.
I've been looking at pisteuo for over 30 years, and your right, the English needs 3 sentences to correctly translate the Greek word pisteuo.
To believe in the context of John 3, as well as in the rest of the book, does not mean "to be aware in the existence of."
For example, I believe that there are politicians who are in my state capitol. However, I do not trust them. The Jews were aware of Jesus' existence, but were they trusting in Him?
No, they were misapplying obedience to the law as a means of salvation. What they were told to do in the sermons by the apostles in acts was to repent (change their mind) and believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. They had to change their minds about the lie that they could save themselves to the Fact that Jesus alone could and would save them. The object of their trust/faith/belief was themselves (sinners). They were told to believe/trust Jesus as the Object of their faith.
Does that make more sense or is it still somewhat confusing?
Since believing is not a work, it is not our commitment that gets us saved, but Jesus' response to our trust in Him.
'Turning from sin' and believing in Jesus is very popular to say..but is that a no works based salvation?
Because according to scripture, self effort, works have zero to do with receiving eternal life.
What do we mean by 'turn from sin'?
If that is a change in behavior, that's working before, or part of salvation. A lost person can't 'turn from sin' before conversion, or part of conversion, because they are dead in sin.
If turn from sin, is meaning, know you are a sinner and ask Jesus to forgive your sin.. that's scriptural.
But if it's some kind of behavior of lessening sin..that does nothing unless you are already saved.
John 3:16, 5:24.. eternal salvation..
The likes of James 2.. the response to already having eternal salvation.