Can English translations be trusted with regards to John Chapter 3?

[Gideon300]

In the English translations of John Chapter 3 Jesus says if you believe in him you are saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

From the wording it seems to be that simply believing he exists is enough to be saved: "believing in him". But according to what I have learned the Greek "word" for belief Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means something more than believing. According to this believing is simply used to capture what pisteuō means since there is no English equivalent. This is rather distressing because in English the message Jesus preaches to Nicodemus here is rather simple, if you believe in him you are saved. Apparently though, he means something else, which is not reflected in the English translation.

Here is what Google says regarding Pisteuō

Pisteuō (πιστεύω), a Greek New Testament verb commonly translated as "to believe," means far more than intellectual agreement. Its core, active meaning is to trust, rely on, cling to, or have faith in someone or something. It represents a profound, personal commitment and surrender rather than a casual acknowledgment.

So according to this Jesus is not saying to believe in him, but to personally commit and surrender. This is foreign to me and how I read John Chapter 3. To me, in English, it sincerely reads like he is just saying to believe in him.

Hopefully my concern is communicated. Within my faith I don't know how to see John 3 differently. I have a tendency to just trust the English translation. Is it the case that some people are making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? Like could the author of John simply have meant believing in Jesus and not this more complicated meaning? I don't know how to think about this, because I don't want to go with something that is not the truth.

Greek has a lot more nuance than English very often/ Greek has three words for life. It also has three words for love. It's just the way it is. However, we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth. We have Bible teachers, concordances, and a vast array of resources to help us if we are willing to put a bit of effort in to gain understanding.

I see "believe in" as distinct from "believe about". Believing in something means that the person responds accordingly. For example, someone might believe that a tourist bridge over a ravine is safe. They'll watch hundreds cross without incident. Do you believe its safe? Yes. Will you cross? No. So you do not truly believe that it is safe.

Many believe the facts about Jesus, although that is changing. Not so many believe to the point of commitment to salvation.

 

[Brasspen]

Yes, I believe in Jesus because I know he will and do what he said. I know he's word is truth, I believe in him. I believe in God, I have put my full trust in him. I believe in him, because of the very works sake. Do you believe in me, that I am telling the truth when I say Jesus Christ word will not return void?

He is the author and finisher of our faith.

It's true we are on a journey. God disciplines us, because we are he's children. Do not despise he's correction.

 

[Watchman22]

Okay, starting over and taking one step at at time:

Rom. 1:7 - God calls (Rom. 1:7)/draws (John 6:44)/enables (John 6:65) everyone (John 12:32) to come to Christ (1Tim. 2:3-4),
both Jew and Gentile (Rom. 1:16) and be saved (John 3:16).

I am good with faith meaning surrender of life to Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 16:31, Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 3:22, 5:1, etc.)

Step 2?

Ok we need to clarify something.

At the beginning stage of the salvation process, Jesus or the gospel isn't part of the process yet. We are being called by the Father, so the next response will be to the Father, right?

Try to look at it like we are in the year 150, and we've never heard of Jesus or the gospel yet. The Father is calling us out, looking for a response.

If your ok with that,
Step 2) would be repentance. Which simply means we've turned in our minds from our way to the direction of the caller.

Are we good?

 

[GWH]

Ok we need to clarify something.

At the beginning stage of the salvation process, Jesus or the gospel isn't part of the process yet. We are being called by the Father, so the next response will be to the Father, right?

Try to look at it like we are in the year 150, and we've never heard of Jesus or the gospel yet. The Father is calling us out, looking for a response.

If your ok with that,
Step 2) would be repentance. Which simply means we've turned in our minds from our way to the direction of the caller.

Are we good?

Well, if you want to be precise, because God as Father was not revealed until by Jesus, pre OT folks were (1) called by the Creator
via general revelation, and so the response would be (2) repenting from polytheism and idolatry to faith in One God with a moral will,
like Abraham per Rom. 1:20 and 2:14-16.

Okay?

 

[Watchman22]

Well, if you want to be precise, because God as Father was not revealed until by Jesus, pre OT folks were (1) called by the Creator
via general revelation, and so the response would be (2) repenting from polytheism and idolatry to faith in One God with a moral will,
like Abraham per Rom. 1:20 and 2:14-16.

Okay?

I'm ok with that, the creator is accurate.

So
1) we're called out by the creator.
2) we turn from our way to the call (of the creator) in our minds, which is the act of repentance .
3) we then, as the result of the call, and the result of the turning in our minds to the caller or creator, we take our first step of faith towards the caller. That first step is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

God, His Son, His Spirit, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours yet.

Do you agree with this step or happening? If not, why and replace my understanding with a better understanding.

Maybe we can pick this up in the am?

 

[GWH]

I'm ok with that, the creator is accurate.

So
1) we're called out by the creator.
2) we turn from our way to the call (of the creator) in our minds, which is the act of repentance .
3) we then, as the result of the call, and the result of the turning in our minds to the caller or creator, we take our first step of faith towards the caller. That first step is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

God, His Son, His Spirit, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours yet.

Do you agree with this step or happening? If not, why and replace my understanding with a better understanding.

Maybe we can pick this up in the am?

I agree with #1-3 but would note that the inspired life is a lifelong walk involving many steps or growth toward spiritual maturity.
However, I hesitate to say that God's Word/HS are not given yet. I would prefer saying that they are only dimly revealed by general revelation, then more fully in the OT, and most fully in the NT and Christ.

Hasta manana.

 

[Watchman22]

I agree with #1-3 but would note that the inspired life is a lifelong walk involving many steps or growth toward spiritual maturity.
However, I hesitate to say that God's Word/HS are not given yet. I would prefer saying that they are only dimly revealed by general revelation, then more fully in the OT, and most fully in the NT and Christ.

Hasta manana.

Yes faith is a daily surrender, followed by a life inspired by such surrender. Which means , I wake up each morning surrendering myself to Him. And all the many decisions that I'm going to make during the day are filtered through the fact that my life isn't mine anymore but His now.

In 38 years of living a surrendered life, I surrender myself more during the day than I did in the beginning. So I'm in full agreement with your first statement.

Not to get sidetracked, but i understand there's a difference between the Holy spirit externally, and the Holy spirit internally. I think many called out ones think that when they feel the external Holy spirit, they mistake it for the internal Holy spirit.

I'll present the fourth step in the am.

 

[Watchman22]

I agree with #1-3 but would note that the inspired life is a lifelong walk involving many steps or growth toward spiritual maturity.
However, I hesitate to say that God's Word/HS are not given yet. I would prefer saying that they are only dimly revealed by generaleas revelation, then more fully in the OT, and most fully in the NT and Christ.

Hasta manana.

I'm presently surprised that our talking together about the salvation process is bringing to light some of the little things that are easily overlooked. I credit your input for that.

One of those little things are the difference between the drawing external Holy spiritwant to get side tracked , and the sealed Holy spirit, that consummated the covenant with Him.

I don't want to get sidetracked by that, but the drawing spirit is an important happening that needs to be acknowledged as part of all the steps we'll be discussing, until the internal spirit is given.

One of the things that I haven't mentioned is that this whole process is the making of a contract, of covenant with Him. The covenant Jesus made possible with His work on Calvary, the drawing or calling by the Father or creator. The Father initiates the covenant, we respond with faith.

In step three we have taken our first step of faith and faithing towards God the Father.
Part of step three, is that the Father is going to deem whether the faith or surrendered life by us is genuine or not. this is why it's so important to fulfill all of what faithing or pisteuo is.

We prove to Him the offering of our life and will over to Him is genuine by how we live our life after we surrender to Him. The second part of pisteuo being "a life inspired by such surrender, " the daily decisions we make will tell God of our surrender is genuine. Not perfect, but genuine. If He deems our faith or surrendered life genuine God moves us forward to step 4, or the parable of the sower, where our faith or surrendered life will be tested.

At this point, God, His Son, His indwelling Spirit, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours to claim yet.

If your thinking about a time frame for steps 1 to 3, it could be minutes, hours, days, weeks. It would be different for each called out one.

Before I get into step 4, the testing ground or parable of the sower, are you good with the first 3 steps as I've laid them out?

 

[GWH]

I'm presently surprised that our talking together about the salvation process is bringing to light some of the little things that are easily overlooked. I credit your input for that.

One of those little things are the difference between the drawing external Holy spiritwant to get side tracked , and the sealed Holy spirit, that consummated the covenant with Him.

I don't want to get sidetracked by that, but the drawing spirit is an important happening that needs to be acknowledged as part of all the steps we'll be discussing, until the internal spirit is given.

One of the things that I haven't mentioned is that this whole process is the making of a contract, of covenant with Him. The covenant Jesus made possible with His work on Calvary, the drawing or calling by the Father or creator. The Father initiates the covenant, we respond with faith.

In step three we have taken our first step of faith and faithing towards God the Father.
Part of step three, is that the Father is going to deem whether the faith or surrendered life by us is genuine or not. this is why it's so important to fulfill all of what faithing or pisteuo is.

We prove to Him the offering of our life and will over to Him is genuine by how we live our life after we surrender to Him. The second part of pisteuo being "a life inspired by such surrender, " the daily decisions we make will tell God of our surrender is genuine. Not perfect, but genuine. If He deems our faith or surrendered life genuine God moves us forward to step 4, or the parable of the sower, where our faith or surrendered life will be tested.

At this point, God, His Son, His indwelling Spirit, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours to claim yet.

If your thinking about a time frame for steps 1 to 3, it could be minutes, hours, days, weeks. It would be different for each called out one.

Before I get into step 4, the testing ground or parable of the sower, are you good with the first 3 steps as I've laid them out?

Yes, I see nothing to quibble about, except that I think God knows the genuineness of our faith aka motivation immediately,
so go ahead.

 

[Watchman22]

Yes, I see nothing to quibble about, except that I think God knows the genuineness of our faith aka motivation immediately,
so go ahead.

OK, for anyone following.
Step 1) we're called out by the Father, initiating the covenant or process.
2) we respond to the caller (the Father) by a turning in our mind from our way, to the direction of the caller. This is repentance.
3) we then fulfill our first act of faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo by taking a step towards God and personally surrendering our lives to Him and begin to live a life inspired by such surrender. God makes a decision here to deemed the surrendered life genuine or not.

If God deems our surrendered life genuine, we then move into the next thing that must happen and happen in the right order. And that is where our faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, our surrendered life are tested. It's the parable of the sower, a testing or proving ground.

Step 4) the testing ground or parable of the sower.
In this fourth step,
A) we are the soil.
B) Christ Himself is the seed.
C) our surrendered life (pisteuo) is being tested here.
D) we are making decisions here that show God if we really have surrendered our life over to Him.
E) 3 of the 4 surrendered lives ( or soils) will fail here.
F) for one soil, Christ is being formed in his or her heart by faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, a surrendered life.
G) for the one soil, a grafting process has begun here.
H) Gods paradoxical truths start to form here.
I) faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, a continually surrendered life start to come more by hearing, hearing by the Divine messages from God. ( for us that includes Gods word or scripture as we know it, not so much before Gods word was available. )

Still at this point, God, His Son, His Spirit, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours to claim yet. ( no indwelling Holy spirit yet)

So as i understand it, this period of testing is a real happening, that must happen at just the right time in the salvation process.

 

[GWH]

OK, for anyone following.
Step 1) we're called out by the Father, initiating the covenant or process.
2) we respond to the caller (the Father) by a turning in our mind from our way, to the direction of the caller. This is repentance.
3) we then fulfill our first act of faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo by taking a step towards God and personally surrendering our lives to Him and begin to live a life inspired by such surrender. God makes a decision here to deemed the surrendered life genuine or not.

If God deems our surrendered life genuine, we then move into the next thing that must happen and happen in the right order. And that is where our faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, our surrendered life are tested. It's the parable of the sower, a testing or proving ground.

Step 4) the testing ground or parable of the sower.
In this fourth step,
A) we are the soil.
B) Christ Himself is the seed.
C) our surrendered life (pisteuo) is being tested here.
D) we are making decisions here that show God if we really have surrendered our life over to Him.
E) 3 of the 4 surrendered lives ( or soils) will fail here.
F) for one soil, Christ is being formed in his or her heart by faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, a surrendered life.
G) for the one soil, a grafting process has begun here.
H) Gods paradoxical truths start to form here.
I) faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo, a continually surrendered life start to come more by hearing, hearing by the Divine messages from God. ( for us that includes Gods word or scripture as we know it, not so much before Gods word was available. )

Still at this point, God, His Son, His Spirit, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours to claim yet. ( no indwelling Holy spirit yet)

So as i understand it, this period of testing is a real happening, that must happen at just the right time in the salvation process.

Those with genuine faith are the good soil, who produce godly fruit, but saying such fruit is produced before the HS indwells is problematic per Rev . 3:20, Rev. 5:5, 8:9, etc., which indicate that the "step toward God" (#3) is opening the door of our heart to His HS.

The forming/grafting/faithing process involving learning GW might find Scriptural support in 1Cor. 3:10-15, and it is life-long per
GW teaching the need for persevering pistis/pisteuo.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The Greek doesn't say "believe in him"; it says "believe into him". Those who believe into him, and remain in him through faith, are secure.

 

[Watchman22]

Those with genuine faith are the good soil, who produce godly fruit, but saying such fruit is produced before the HS indwells is problematic per Rev . 3:20, Rev. 5:5, 8:9, etc., which indicate that the "step toward God" (#3) is opening the door of our heart to His HS.

The forming/grafting/faithing process involving learning GW might find Scriptural support in 1Cor. 3:10-15, and it is life-long per
GW teaching the need for persevering pistis/pisteuo.

So are you ok with step 4?
Can we move to step 5?

 

[GWH]

So are you ok with step 4?
Can we move to step 5?

We can move to #5 if you agree that #4 must include opening the door of one's heart to the HS per Rev. 3:20 & Rom. 5:5.
I would explain it this way:

The kerygmatic prayer that is necessary in order for a sinner be saved and walk with God is confession (1John 1:9, Psa. 32:1-5).
Because a convert’s commitment to Christ is in accordance with God’s perfect will (1Tim. 2:3-4), the moment of Spirit baptism
or indwelling fulfills the command to be filled with the Spirit (in Eph. 5:18), which means to cooperate fully with the love of God
(Eph. 3:16-19) or of the HS (Rom. 15:30). Does this jibe with step #4?

I go on to say what might jibe with #5:

A new convert does not achieve immediate perfection by remaining filled with the HS (Phil. 3:12). Instead, the combination of temptations, ignorance of GW and the old selfish nature results in immature saints committing post-conversion sins, at which time they are carnal or acting like unbelievers (1Cor. 3:1).

As soon as new Christians realize they sinned, they should confess it (1John 1:9a) rather than compound it by trying to hide it or cover it up like Adam and Eve did (Gen. 3:7-8). Whenever a believer acknowledges to God his/her known sins of immoral attitudes and actions, God forgives all sins (1John 1:9b). This means he/she is pleasing rather than grieving God or once again is Spirit-filled (walking in the Spirit) and has a right relationship with Christ Jesus (Eph. 4:30, 5:10 & 18). This spiritual flip-flopping is the phase of instability, and although it is bad, failure to confess promptly is much worse, because it results in chain-sinning or back-sliding, which may be called prodigal if it continues very long (cf. Luke 15:11-32).

Over...

 

[Watchman22]

We can move to #5 if you agree that #4 must include opening the door of one's heart to the HS per Rev. 3:20 & Rom. 5:5.
I would explain it this way:

The kerygmatic prayer that is necessary in order for a sinner be saved and walk with God is confession (1John 1:9, Psa. 32:1-5).
Because a convert’s commitment to Christ is in accordance with God’s perfect will (1Tim. 2:3-4), the moment of Spirit baptism
or indwelling fulfills the command to be filled with the Spirit (in Eph. 5:18), which means to cooperate fully with the love of God
(Eph. 3:16-19) or of the HS (Rom. 15:30). Does this jibe with step #4?

I go on to say what might jibe with #5:

A new convert does not achieve immediate perfection by remaining filled with the HS (Phil. 3:12). Instead, the combination of temptations, ignorance of GW and the old selfish nature results in immature saints committing post-conversion sins, at which time they are carnal or acting like unbelievers (1Cor. 3:1).

As soon as new Christians realize they sinned, they should confess it (1John 1:9a) rather than compound it by trying to hide it or cover it up like Adam and Eve did (Gen. 3:7-8). Whenever a believer acknowledges to God his/her known sins of immoral attitudes and actions, God forgives all sins (1John 1:9b). This means he/she is pleasing rather than grieving God or once again is Spirit-filled (walking in the Spirit) and has a right relationship with Christ Jesus (Eph. 4:30, 5:10 & 18). This spiritual flip-flopping is the phase of instability, and although it is bad, failure to confess promptly is much worse, because it results in chain-sinning or back-sliding, which may be called prodigal if it continues very long (cf. Luke 15:11-32).

Over...

Ok, let's look at the kerygmatic prayers AI definition.

" A kerygmatic prayer is an urgent heart-felt proclamation of the gospel message - focusing on Jesus's life, death, and resurrection - designed to foster personal conversion, SURRENDER to Christ, and a, renewed commitment to discipleship."

Notice i capitalized the word surrender to Christ.

* This prayer sounds feasible in our day an age, but what about from the years 50 to 1500 when the gospel message wasn't available like it is now? And after the 1500's, who's gospel message is the correct one ?

I think Faith in it's purest form is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender "TO GOD" . God is the supreme deity, the Father. Faith in this pure form would lead to knowing Jesus if the Father chose to do so., when the Father chose to do so.

* Are you standing on the fact that if someone was called, repented, surrendered their life to God, and then that surrendered life was tested and accepted, they couldn't recieve the Holy Spirit unless they knew everything about Jesus's life death and resurrection? I would think that after we recieve "the spirit of Christ" that's when the real understanding of Him will start to take place.

It seems quite obvious this was added to the simple act of faith and faithing which is "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."

This is why i call this subject rediscovering pisteuo, rediscovering faith the way it was intended.

And i don't want to get bogged down with the kerygmatic prayer, i don't see a big problem with it. i just don't see how it can be a hindrance to receiving the Holy spirit which happens in step 5.

Could you give explanations to my concerns in the starred statements i made above.

Thanks

 

[GWH]

Ok, let's look at the kerygmatic prayers AI definition.
" A kerygmatic prayer is an urgent heart-felt proclamation of the gospel message - focusing on Jesus's life, death, and resurrection - designed to foster personal conversion, SURRENDER to Christ, and a, renewed commitment to discipleship."
Notice i capitalized the word surrender to Christ.

* This prayer sounds feasible in our day an age, but what about from the years 50 to 1500 when the gospel message wasn't available like it is now? And after the 1500's, who's gospel message is the correct one ?
I think Faith in it's purest form is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender "TO GOD" . God is the supreme deity, the Father. Faith in this pure form would lead to knowing Jesus if the Father chose to do so., when the Father chose to do so.

* Are you standing on the fact that if someone was called, repented, surrendered their life to God, and then that surrendered life was tested and accepted, they couldn't recieve the Holy Spirit unless they knew everything about Jesus's life death and resurrection? I would think that after we recieve "the spirit of Christ" that's when the real understanding of Him will start to take place.

It seems quite obvious this was added to the simple act of faith and faithing which is "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."
This is why i call this subject rediscovering pisteuo, rediscovering faith the way it was intended.
And i don't want to get bogged down with the kerygmatic prayer, i don't see a big problem with it. i just don't see how it can be a hindrance to receiving the Holy spirit which happens in step 5.

Could you give explanations to my concerns in the starred statements i made above.
Thanks

Sure, and let's begin by looking at your description of step #3 again:
3) we then fulfill our first act of faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo by taking a step towards God and personally surrendering our lives to Him and begin to live a life inspired by such surrender. God makes a decision here to deemed the surrendered life genuine or not.

I view prayer of genuine confession (of sin and need for salvation) as the step toward/surrender to God,
and yes, the prayer prompted by general revelation is not cognizant of the NT Gospel but only of the Creator/God,
who immediately deems it genuine and so inspires or indwells the surrenderer as the HS, although the soul may not
realize/understand that very well.

Thus, I think we can move into the next step #4 of testing.

 

[Watchman22]

Sure, and let's begin by looking at your description of step #3 again:
3) we then fulfill our first act of faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo by taking a step towards God and personally surrendering our lives to Him and begin to live a life inspired by such surrender. God makes a decision here to deemed the surrendered life genuine or not.

I view prayer of genuine confession (of sin and need for salvation) as the step toward/surrender to God,
and yes, the prayer prompted by general revelation is not cognizant of the NT Gospel but only of the Creator/God,
who immediately deems it genuine and so inspires or indwells the surrenderer as the HS, although the soul may not
realize/understand that very well.

Thus, I think we can move into the next step #4 of testing.

Just a side bar about step 4 or the testing period.
We cannot have the indwelling Holy spirit yet at step 4, because 3 of the 4 surrendered lives or soils will fail and have to be called out again.

Are we on the same page with that?

 

[JohnRH]

In the English translations of John Chapter 3 Jesus says if you believe in him you are saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

From the wording it seems to be that simply believing he exists is enough to be saved: "believing in him". But according to what I have learned the Greek "word" for belief Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means something more than believing. According to this believing is simply used to capture what pisteuō means since there is no English equivalent. This is rather distressing because in English the message Jesus preaches to Nicodemus here is rather simple, if you believe in him you are saved. Apparently though, he means something else, which is not reflected in the English translation.

Here is what Google says regarding Pisteuō

Pisteuō (πιστεύω), a Greek New Testament verb commonly translated as "to believe," means far more than intellectual agreement. Its core, active meaning is to trust, rely on, cling to, or have faith in someone or something. It represents a profound, personal commitment and surrender rather than a casual acknowledgment.

So according to this Jesus is not saying to believe in him, but to personally commit and surrender. This is foreign to me and how I read John Chapter 3. To me, in English, it sincerely reads like he is just saying to believe in him.

Hopefully my concern is communicated. Within my faith I don't know how to see John 3 differently. I have a tendency to just trust the English translation. Is it the case that some people are making a bigger deal out of this than it actually is? Like could the author of John simply have meant believing in Jesus and not this more complicated meaning? I don't know how to think about this, because I don't want to go with something that is not the truth.

It's the difference between believing THAT a chair can hold you up and sitting down in it and entrusting your weight to it.

 

[GWH]

Just a side bar about step 4 or the testing period.
We cannot have the indwelling Holy spirit yet at step 4, because 3 of the 4 surrendered lives or soils will fail and have to be called out again.

Are we on the same page with that?

How can the first three soils be considered "surrendered lives"?!
I think the point of the parable is that only the 4th is surrendered.

 

[Watchman22]

How can the first three soils be considered "surrendered lives"?!
I think the point of the parable is that only the 4th is surrendered.

Remember the first step towards God, the first act of faith and faithing, the first surrendered life? God deems if the surrendered life is genuine or not? Some are deemed not genuine.

Those that are deemed genuine go into the testing ground or parable of the sower, where 3 of the 4 will fail.

I thought we were good on that?