I take the position that I have stated, not the one that you keep trying to assign to me.
Faith or Law?
- Thread starter Gideon300
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J
James456
Guest
I wasn't assigning anything to you, I simply pointed out the truth of where your views would lead if they were correct. I'd be surprised if you didn't agree with me
J
James456
Guest
You asked me the following question, please do not criticise me for answering it:
The New Covenant involves God writing the Law of Moses internally on our hearts, so if the Law of Moses is not being written internally on someone's heart, then what does that imply about whether or not they are under the New Covenant?
It’s impossible to obey Moses and Jesus
Moses law given to Israel
“And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.”
Leviticus 24:19-20 KJV
“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
Exodus 21:23-25 KJV
The Lord Jesus contrary word in the gospel Of his kingdom
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
Matthew 5:38-39 KJV
These two things are contrary or how can you obey Moses
“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
Deuteronomy 24:1-2 KJV
and also Jesus ?
“It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: but I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.”
Matthew 5:31-32 KJV
it’s pretty easy to read the things Moses gave isreel to govern the land he gave then ….
“Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. …..
Deuteronomy 5:1-2, 22-25, 27-28 KJV
“These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.”
Deuteronomy 12:1 KJV
“And this is the law which Moses set before the children of Israel: these are the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which Moses spake unto the children of Israel, after they came forth out of Egypt,”
Deuteronomy 4:44-45 KJV
“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.”
Deuteronomy 29:1 KJV
I’m not sure how this doesn’t register to some
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
Jeremiah 31:31-32 KJV
we aren’t promised the land of Old Testament isreal we’re promised much better and have a much better covenent word and much better sacrifice much better preisthood much better intercession we have the promise of the holy ghost ect
We can let Moses go And accept chrirt and the gospel but some can’t
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
( their message to the churches after the discussion ) forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
Acts 15:5-6, 24
Moses law isnt Christian doctrine unless you Look for the prophetic element about Jesus …..
We are free of the ceremonial law of Moses but not the 10 commandments!
We needed the 10 Commandments so we know what sin is.
Now under the New Covenant, We are the Temple.
Pick up your crosses daily is our sacrificial system now. We die to ourselves to follow Him, our Lord. Every day.
We do not look to the Law because we are led by the Holy Spirit of God so we look to our heart and the Spirit to lead us instead of looking to the law.
So, dont look to the law, look towards the Lord Himself.
I didn't deny it. I explained it.
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Ro 3:19–22)
The requirements of the law speak to those who are under the law. It tells them that their thinking is wrong when they think they are right before God based on their obedience to the law. This is to eliminate any notion that they are not accountable to God for their failures to obey. In other words, through the law they become conscious of their sins. And this is actually a gift from God because no one (including those who think they are obedient to all God's laws) will be declared righteous by God on the basis of their obedience to His laws. Knowing that they are failing is beneficial because they can then seek the righteousness that is available outside the requirements of the law through faith in Christ.
It wasn't called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Ge 2:9) for no reason.
Yes, it is clear you understand that obedience to the law brings life. Everyone understands that. But our problem is not with the law being good. Our problem is that we are not able to obey the law well enough to be justified by God on that basis. What is curious about your position is that you do not seem to grasp that the righteousness we possess through our obedience to the law is not righteous enough to get you over the finish line. Since the law convicts people of this fact (and since the Holy Spirit does the same thing from inside a person's heart), it would be more seemly to place the emphasis on people's sins being forgiven rather than on righteousness through not breaking God's laws, the latter being unobtainable by mankind.
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (Ga 3:21–25)
If God could have written laws that produce life for obeying them, then He would not have sacrificed His Son for our failures to obey. But those laws that He did write "confined all under sin" so that the promise of eternal life "might be given to those who believe". After the revelation of Christ, the law served as "our tutor to bring us to Christ". But after having found Christ, "we are no longer under a tutor".
Thanks for clarifying Pilgrimshope.
I have a question for you.
Did you study the Covenants?
I'm pretty familiar with about 7 of them, but I had to actually study them.
It almost sounds from your post that you gleened the Covenants just from scripture alone.
I never would have learned them just from scripture alone.
Just curious.
Amen to that brother.
The Law has been abolished.
Jesus fulfilled the Law...He completed it so that we don't have to.
We are under the Law of Christ...
and his burden is light.
Matthew 11:28-30
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
The Pharisees put burdens on the Jews by making them follow so many laws that it was practically impossible.
Jesus lifted them, and us, from those burdens and has made following the TC easy because of our love for Christ.
J
James456
Guest
Bit when Paul repeatedly stated we cannot be justified/righteous by obeying the law, this was because of the moral side of the law(mainly the TC), for the rest of the law could faultlessly be obeyed
Could the rest of the law be faultlessly obeyed?
And even if it could...it was a burden....
I doubt 603 commandments could be obeyed faultlessly.
And what if a man at the time of Moses wanted to divorce his wife?
Isn't that also a Moral Law?
They different types of law do overlap.
J
James456
Guest
As for legalistic righteousness, faultless Phil3:6 NIV 1984 edition.
Many term the law given in two parts, the legalistic, or Mosaic law of rite, ritual and ceremony and the moral law, mainly of the TC. The legalistic law could faultlessly be obeyed, even by the worst of sinners(Phil3:6), and by the pharisees of Jesus day, for that law only concerned outward obedience. But the worst of sinners could not obey the TC(Rom7:7-11) Paul termed that law the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. He stated that to born again christians in the present tense
The Holy Spirit provides us with THE reality check. i.e. the reality is that you need to look like Jesus to be declared righteous, but you're not even close.
But as hopeless as this may seem, you haven't been left with hope.
Eve was taken out of Adam after he fell asleep and, likewise, Jesus' side is opened after He fell asleep. Might it be that by this wound then His Bride is placed into Him? As sin entered by one man, Adam, so sin exits by one Man, Jesus.
Was Eve condemned before Adam fell? Scripture doesn't give us that hypothetical question. But we do know that mankind wasn't doomed until Adam 'completed' Eve's transgress. Did this have anything to do with that they were one? That is, according to scripture, Adam's disobedience sealed Eve's fate also.
Would Eve's transgression have been of any consequence if Adam had been obedient? Perhaps we'll never know the answer to that, but I've finally come on a good question to ask the Word Himself at first opportunity.
What I do know for sure, however, is that Jesus' obedience was of every consequence to the shame that He willingly bore on my behalf. And now, even that word 'behalf' seems especially significant to me.
But as hopeless as this may seem, you haven't been left with hope.
Eve was taken out of Adam after he fell asleep and, likewise, Jesus' side is opened after He fell asleep. Might it be that by this wound then His Bride is placed into Him? As sin entered by one man, Adam, so sin exits by one Man, Jesus.
Was Eve condemned before Adam fell? Scripture doesn't give us that hypothetical question. But we do know that mankind wasn't doomed until Adam 'completed' Eve's transgress. Did this have anything to do with that they were one? That is, according to scripture, Adam's disobedience sealed Eve's fate also.
Would Eve's transgression have been of any consequence if Adam had been obedient? Perhaps we'll never know the answer to that, but I've finally come on a good question to ask the Word Himself at first opportunity.
What I do know for sure, however, is that Jesus' obedience was of every consequence to the shame that He willingly bore on my behalf. And now, even that word 'behalf' seems especially significant to me.
The way I understand it, I am the righteousness of Christ, in Christ. And where the Lord is is Liberty and no law, but as members of the body. we continue to not do any sins or wrong no one, not because of the Law but because of a change in my heart that takes place over time, so I am in Christ and my spirit does not sin but sin dwells within my flesh. One day I'll receive my new body and not be bothered by the flesh anymore.
Absolutely everything is a test on this earth. Learn to love them even those who would kill you. I have found that I am being transformed by the renewing of my mind and heart over time, and this is a process over time if we stay in Christ. That means being led by the Spirit. So though I am not perfect, I am the righteousness of God in Christ and led by the Spirit daily, moment by moment.
So when we dwell in the secret place of the most high shall abide in the shadow of the Almighty...
Psalm 91
Psalm 91
I was thinking about that one day. And the Hebrews in Egypt and the bondage they were under. If you compare the US to Egypt, we are under 10X more bondage than the Hebrews ever were. I guess people don't see it?
If the Law of Moses doesn't give us knowledge of what sin is, then how can it make us conscious of sin?
How can the Law of Moses can't make the whole world accountable to God if the whole world isn't under it?
Why did God want the Israelites to obey the Law of Moses if that wouldn't make them righteous before Him?
Do you think that the way to be right before God is through our disobedience to the Mosaic Law?
Do you think that God neglected to teach the Israelites how to become righteous?
Can you explain Luke 1:5-6 in light of your claim that the Law of Moses shows us that our thinking is wrong that we are right before God based on our obedience to it?
In Romans 3:21-22, it notably doesn't say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of being good enough, but rather the one and only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is though faith in Christ for all who believe, so that is not is not a way of becoming righteous that is an alternative to becoming righteous as the result of obedience to the Law of Moses.
It clouded our judgement by allowing us to rely on on understanding of good and evil rather, which leads to death, rather than leaning on God's understanding, which leads to life.
We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), so you don't seem to grasp that obeying the law well enough to get over the finish line has absolutely nothing to do with the way to become righteous. The one and only way to attain a character trait is through faith, but what it means to attain a character trait is to become a doer of works that embody that trait, so for example the only way to become courageous is through faith apart form being required to have first done enough courageous works in order to earn it as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness (1 John 3:4-7) and every other character trait. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31). In Romans 2:13, Paul affirmed that only the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to close to be doers of it other than in order to be good enough to earn it, namely faith. We become someone who has faith, someone who will be declared righteous, and someone who is a doer of the Law of Moses all at the same time and anyone who is not one of those is also not the others, but we do not earn our righteousness as the result of our works.
While it is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19) and that he obeyed the command to offer Isaac because he believed God (Hebrews 11:17), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works. In James 2:21-24, Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they embodied his faith, but not insofar as they were earning as a wage.
Likewise, we can't earn eternal life even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically required in order to experience to gift of eternal life, not about the way to be good enough to earn it as the result. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so again believing in Jesus is not an alternative to obeying God's commandments. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after their purpose was fulfilled would be missing the whole point of a tutor. The reason that the Law of Moses leads us to Christ is because it was given in order to teach us how to know him, not so that we can then reject everything that he taught and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness.
J
James456
Guest
Well you don't understand the verse, you're taking it out of the context that was meant, but let's go with your interpretation of it. Only doers of the law of Moses will be declared righteous
So, what of people who do not seek to obey all of Torah? Well you've already stated your belief, they cannot be righteous/justified. Just what I previously told you was the result of your belief
So, according to what you believe, most of the people on this website cannot be in a saved state. Now what's the point of you saying I am assigning that belief to you when you are stating it yourself?
These don't like to be judged from the same standard of which they judge others by. It is a "Thou shalt keep my commandments, that I choose as I see fit from among all the commandments of God."