The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to experience driving it.
i dislike analogies,,,
but if I DO NOT drive the car...
I will not experience it.
And I did not EARN the opportunity to drive it IF it is a gift.
Maybe I'm not understanding.
We can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Torah because it was never given as a way of doing that, but rather it was giving in order to graciously teach us what is intrinsically required in order to experience to experience the content of the gift of salvation.
The Torah was given, as far as I have understood, to give to the Israelites a way of returning to some kind of normalcy after hundreds of years of slavery in Egypt.
In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace
What does Titus 2:11-13 state?
Please post scripture.
to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works in obedience to the Torah has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation.
But we are not living under THE LAW.
Why do you speak about the Torah?
In Ephesian 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously causing us to experience being doers of good works in obedience to the Torah is nevertheless a central part of the content of His gift of salvation.
i believe we agree, but I stil do not know why it's necessary to speak about the Torah.
In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus specifically said that he did not come to abolish the Torah and he warned aghast relaxing the least part of it, and in Romans 3:31, Paul also confirmed that our faith does not abolish the Torah but rather our faith upholds it.
We really should post scripture.
Jesus certainly did not relax THE LAW.
He made it more difficult...bring it to the heart.
YOU HAVE HEARD...
BUT I TELL YOU....
Hatred is murder.
Lust is adultery.
So, yes, Jesus did not abolish the Law, He completed it so that we would not have to.
And, of course, Paul taught what Jesus taught.
Neither of those verses specify anything about civil, ceremonial, or moral laws. If a group of people were to create lists of which God's laws they though best fit into those categories, then they would end up with a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the Bible as if its authors had in mind a list of laws that they just created, especially when there is no way to even establish that they considered those to be categories of law.
S,,,,this is what theologians do!
They study the bible in order to understand the culture of the time, how people lived, what they believed, etc.
There actually IS a list of different laws.
You might want to find out about this...it's easy to do with the internet these days.
Look up
CIVIL LAWS IN THE OT
CEREMONIAL LAWS IN THE OT
MORAL LAW IN THE OT
If you read through Exodus specifically to find out about the different types of Law...
you'd find that these three categories are definitely there.
We are free to create whatever categories of law that we want and to decide for ourselves which laws we think best fit into our categories, but just because we can do that does not establish that the authors of the Bible used the same categories or that they would agree with us about which laws best fit into which of our categories.
No ma'am (I think you're a girl)
We cannot make up any list.
And the people of the Exodus would certainly agree with this list.
They were pretty intelligent even back then...why assume that they were not?
The existence of the Moral Law would imply that we could be acting morally while disobeying the laws that are not in that category, however, there are no examples in the Bible where disobedience to God is stated to be moral and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what ought to be done and we ought to embody God's nature in obedience to Him, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws.
So do you do any work on the Sabbath?
Any young adult been stoned to death because he disobeyed his parents?
Know any adulterers that were stoned to death?
Can a husband divorce his wise because he doesn't like how she cooks?
I would suggest that you find out the difference between the different TYPES of Law.
Instead we are REQUIRED to obey the Moral Law:
WORSHIP GOD
DO NOT TAKE HIS NAME IN VAIN
HONOR PARENTS
DO NOT MURDER
DO NOT STEAL
DO NOT COVET
For example, holiness is part of God's nature, so it is a moral issue, and in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy as God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes what some people consider to be ceremonial laws.
So does a woman bethroth a man for a year before they are allowed to be married?
I really do not understand your point here.
Are you a hasidic Jew?
Legislators give laws in accordance with their understanding of what ought to be done, so to claim that some of God's laws are not moral laws is to claim that God made a moral error in regard to what ought to be done when He gave those laws and is therefore to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.
i stated that the Moral Law MUST be followed.
