How can the following statements by Paul corroborate the doctrine created BY Paul: “Paul’s” doctrine of Grace??

[memberofthebride]

If Paul actually taught the Torah had been abolished, and all are now under grace, explain the following.

Romans 7

3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress:

but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Paul confirms the 3rd Commandment! Paul confirms -- adultery is Sin! How can this be -- If Torah had been abolished? Why would Paul be teaching “gentiles” in Rome, adultery is Sin?

12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Where are the commandments found, in the Torah? Thus, the word “Law” as used by Paul -- is Torah. Why, to Gentiles, is this taught?

Why would Christ or His Father allow to be abolished, what even Paul states is; “HOLY Just and Good”, What was established at THE Beginning as The WAY God judged in “Righteousness”, the world?

Where is it written Paul Is allowed to change, what had been in place for 4000 years? And Why Paul and not Jesus Christ, the Law giver?

NKJV Romans 3

9 What then? Are we (Jews) better than they? Not at all. For we have “”previously”’ charged both Jews and Greeks --- that they are all under sin.

Thus; From the mouth of Paul,,, both Jews and Greeks are --- “Under” the penalty of death for their sins – which IS the transgression of the Torah. 1 John 3: 4.

If the Torah - had been - abolished, how is it possible for Paul to make this statement ?

Some on this blog have stated the Gentiles are not subject to the Torah, only Jews must obey the Torah. That is not what Paul explains to Roman gentiles.

Sorry, Sin remains the transgression of the Torah, according to Paul and is not abolished.

 

[Mem]

Paul uses the accordance of the law to show how a woman is freed from it. She is no longer bound to the dead husband because his death releases her from the obligations to go along with being his wife. Likewise, Jesus rendered the law obsolete while maintaining the accordance of the law. However, what part of the law requires that He die in perfectly keeping the law? Did he effectively 'break' that law in dying even as He had no sin? No, Jesus came to do the will of His Father.

1Jn 3:5
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

2Cor 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Heb 2:14
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

2Tim 1:9-10
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

The gospel is the ministry of deliverance from sin and death (Ro 5:2; 1Cor 15:16), and the law is the ministry of death (2Cor 3:7)

The Gospel
Ro 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That is "Paul's" doctrine of Grace.

 

[memberofthebride]

Paul uses the accordance of the law to show how a woman is freed from it. She is no longer bound to the dead husband because his death releases her from the obligations to go along with being his wife. Likewise, Jesus rendered the law obsolete while maintaining the accordance of the law. However, what part of the law requires that He die in perfectly keeping the law? Did he effectively 'break' that law in dying even as He had no sin? No, Jesus came to do the will of His Father.

1Jn 3:5
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

2Cor 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Heb 2:14
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

2Tim 1:9-10
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

The gospel is the ministry of deliverance from sin and death (Ro 5:2; 1Cor 15:16), and the law is the ministry of death (2Cor 3:7)

The Gospel
Ro 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That is "Paul's" doctrine of Grace.

in response;

How is it possible for Paul to say what he did in the scriptures and then teach the HOLY ETERNAL LAW of God has been abolished?
How can Paul teach both Jew and Greek are under penalty of death if the law that codified what is sin had been abolished ?? no law -- no sin!

Adam disobeyed, we have all inherited human nature from Adam.
human nature can not, can never obey God.
Because Jesus Christ obeyed perfectly He qualities as our Passover,

Our Passover, by His one sacrifice, paid the penalty of death every person ever born has earned.
mankind is UNDER that penalty of death, if not, if there is no Torah, no commandments, then sin is impossible, if no law, then repentance is not possible, if no law, then we have no need for the Sacrifice of Christ in payment for sin.
The OT contains many prophecies that Christ performed, show us one that states Christ came to abolish the Torah.

Christ's one sacrifice, as HE is our maker, is worth more all humans ever born, thus is payment in full.

By that one sacrifice, those that accept Christ as their Passover, their penalty of death is paid in full and can now be accounted as "righteous' in the eyes of the Father.

Paul is stating as FACT, Christ is our Passover, our payment for our sins.

7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

If Christ ended the Torah --- sin can not exist, if sin does not exist why is Paul proclaiming Christ as our Passover sacrifice?

Logical question; if the Torah was abolished then there remains no law against worship other gods,

has Paul taught we can worship any god we want??

Paul's words have been twisted, as we have been warned was happening even in the days of the 12
apostles.

 

[Mem]

in response;

How is it possible for Paul to say what he did in the scriptures and then teach the HOLY ETERNAL LAW of God has been abolished?
How can Paul teach both Jew and Greek are under penalty of death if the law that codified what is sin had been abolished ?? no law -- no sin!

Adam disobeyed, we have all inherited human nature from Adam.
human nature can not, can never obey God.
Because Jesus Christ obeyed perfectly He qualities as our Passover,

Our Passover, by His one sacrifice, paid the penalty of death every person ever born has earned.
mankind is UNDER that penalty of death, if not, if there is no Torah, no commandments, then sin is impossible, if no law, then repentance is not possible, if no law, then we have no need for the Sacrifice of Christ in payment for sin.
The OT contains many prophecies that Christ performed, show us one that states Christ came to abolish the Torah.

Christ's one sacrifice, as HE is our maker, is worth more all humans ever born, thus is payment in full.

By that one sacrifice, those that accept Christ as their Passover, their penalty of death is paid in full and can now be accounted as "righteous' in the eyes of the Father.

Paul is stating as FACT, Christ is our Passover, our payment for our sins.

7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

If Christ ended the Torah --- sin can not exist, if sin does not exist why is Paul proclaiming Christ as our Passover sacrifice?

Logical question; if the Torah was abolished then there remains no law against worship other gods,

has Paul taught we can worship any god we want??

Paul's words have been twisted, as we have been warned was happening even in the days of the 12
apostles.

Why did the Israelites want to go back to Egypt after being delivered from Pharoah? They were set free and wanted to go back into bondage. I assert that they took comfort in what they knew, and they knew Pharaoh and it was obvious that they did not know God.
Well, now, we know Him. Jer 31:34

 

[memberofthebride]

Why did the Israelites want to go back to Egypt after being delivered from Pharoah? They were set free and wanted to go back into bondage. I assert that they took comfort in what they knew, and they knew Pharaoh and it was obvious that they did not know God.
Well, now, we know Him. Jer 31:34

comment:

The web states there are now 45,000 churches, ranging from Catholics & LDS, to protestants, to JW, baptists on and on, how is it possible the 45,000, all running in many directions -- now know the ONE TRUE GOD?

to my mind this is nothing more then mass confusion. Even on this blog, agreement is rare.
Christians are to be of ONE mind, ONE accord --- not 45,000

 

[ZNP]

If Paul actually taught the Torah had been abolished, and all are now under grace, explain the following.

Romans 7

3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress:

but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Paul confirms the 3rd Commandment! Paul confirms -- adultery is Sin! How can this be -- If Torah had been abolished? Why would Paul be teaching “gentiles” in Rome, adultery is Sin?

12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Where are the commandments found, in the Torah? Thus, the word “Law” as used by Paul -- is Torah. Why, to Gentiles, is this taught?

Why would Christ or His Father allow to be abolished, what even Paul states is; “HOLY Just and Good”, What was established at THE Beginning as The WAY God judged in “Righteousness”, the world?

Where is it written Paul Is allowed to change, what had been in place for 4000 years? And Why Paul and not Jesus Christ, the Law giver?

NKJV Romans 3

9 What then? Are we (Jews) better than they? Not at all. For we have “”previously”’ charged both Jews and Greeks --- that they are all under sin.

Thus; From the mouth of Paul,,, both Jews and Greeks are --- “Under” the penalty of death for their sins – which IS the transgression of the Torah. 1 John 3: 4.

If the Torah - had been - abolished, how is it possible for Paul to make this statement ?

Some on this blog have stated the Gentiles are not subject to the Torah, only Jews must obey the Torah. That is not what Paul explains to Roman gentiles.

Sorry, Sin remains the transgression of the Torah, according to Paul and is not abolished.

Instead of claiming Paul taught something, why not actually quote what Paul did say and then instead of dealing with someone's interpretation we would be responding to what Paul actually said.

For example, while alive the woman is called an adulteress. Marriage is "till death do us part". According to Paul "I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me". So Paul taught that we have died with Christ. He also taught that the law of the Spirit overcomes the law of sin and death. So the law as a standard is not abolished, however, if you are one with the crucified and resurrected Christ you can meet that standard, if not, you can't.

This does not mean we are "sinless". What it does mean is it is like an airplane. The airplane has not done away with the law of gravity, but it has overcome it. However, you need engines that are working and the gas tank must be full.

 

[memberofthebride]

This does not mean we are "sinless". What it does mean is it is like an airplane. The airplane has not done away with the law of gravity, but it has overcome it. However, you need engines that are working and the gas tank must be full.[/QUOTE]



If Paul taught the Torah has been abolished as those that embrace the doctrine of Grace are happy to believe, why are the apostles saying this to Paul, and then Paul shaves his hair as per the Torah ?

and please do not say there are two WAYS, one for Jews and one for gentiles. There is only ONE WAY, one narrow Gate. and as Paul states. there is neither Jew nor gentile, men nor women all are equal.

but [that] thou thyself (Paul) also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

18And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things,
whereof they were informed concerning thee,
are nothing;

but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly,

and keepest the law. Paul obey the Torah !! how could he live one way and teach another 180 degrees apart?

 

[ZNP]

If Paul taught the Torah has been abolished as those that embrace the doctrine of Grace are happy to believe, why are the apostles saying this to Paul, and then Paul shaves his hair as per the Torah ?

but [that] thou thyself (Paul) also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

18And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things,
whereof they were informed concerning thee,
are nothing;

but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly,

and keepest the law. Paul obey the Torah !! how could he live one way and teach another 180 degrees apart?

Are you serious? Are you really defending the practice of sacrificing a bull after Jesus Christ has been sacrificed for you? When Paul was arrested in Jerusalem he was in the process of paying for the sacrifice of a bull for the vow that the Jews were making. The book of Hebrews makes it very clear that practice has been done away with, it pointed to the sacrifice that Jesus was going to make and after Jesus died for us we no longer sacrifice bulls and goats.

It is shameful for anyone claiming to be a Christian to try and tell us we need to go back to sacrificing bulls and goats. And that is precisely what you are doing when you quote these verses as evidence that Paul supports keeping the Torah. If you don't understand that then you don't understand the first thing about the New Testament, and if you did understand that and still tried to push that on us then you are a false teacher.

 

[ZNP]

but [that] thou thyself (Paul) also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

18And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things,
whereof they were informed concerning thee,
are nothing;

but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly,

and keepest the law. Paul obey the Torah !! how could he live one way and teach another 180 degrees apart?

Both Paul and James made a mistake and I believe they were both responsible for writing the book of Hebrews to fully explain, without any dispute or confusion, that not only had they made a mistake but what was the mistake.

Jesus Christ has sacrificed Himself for your salvation, it is an insult to the blood of Christ to sacrifice a bull or goat for your atonement.

 

[memberofthebride]

Are you serious? Are you really defending the practice of sacrificing a bull after Jesus Christ has been sacrificed for you? When Paul was arrested in Jerusalem he was in the process of paying for the sacrifice of a bull for the vow that the Jews were making. The book of Hebrews makes it very clear that practice has been done away with, it pointed to the sacrifice that Jesus was going to make and after Jesus died for us we no longer sacrifice bulls and goats.

It is shameful for anyone claiming to be a Christian to try and tell us we need to go back to sacrificing bulls and goats. And that is precisely what you are doing when you quote these verses as evidence that Paul supports keeping the Torah. If you don't understand that then you don't understand the first thing about the New Testament, and if you did understand that and still tried to push that on us then you are a false teacher.

show me where any of the 13 apostles sacrificed?? or any of the Christians in that day.

Christ was the whole point of blood sacrifices, when He shed His blood that ended sacrifices.

do you know the Sacrificial Law was added to the Torah, it was never a part of the Old Covenant?
The OC contains nothing about sacrifices. ZERO

Sacrifices, bleeding to death of animals show us that our sin requires our death, Christ IS OUR PASSOVER.
Christ one sacrifice paid the penalty of death for 100's of billions.

As Paul states the blood of bulls and goats can never pay for our sins they were to remind us, to point to our need for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The Commandments, statutes and judgement Paul and the 12 kept, including the 7th Day Sabbath, the 7 Holy Feasts of God and the food laws.

they would not recognize what is called Christianity today

 

[memberofthebride]

show me where any of the 13 apostles sacrificed?? or any of the Christians in that day.

Christ was the whole point of blood sacrifices, when He shed His blood that ended sacrifices.

do you know the Sacrificial Law was added to the Torah, it was never a part of the Old Covenant?
The OC contains nothing about sacrifices. ZERO

Sacrifices, bleeding to death of animals show us that our sin requires our death, Christ IS OUR PASSOVER.
Christ one sacrifice paid the penalty of death for 100's of billions.

As Paul states the blood of bulls and goats can never pay for our sins they were to remind us, to point to our need for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The Commandments, statutes and judgement Paul and the 12 kept, including the 7th Day Sabbath, the 7 Holy Feasts of God and the food laws.

they would not recognize what is called Christianity today

Would you please explain the scriptures in Acts, the ones showing Paul was living by and teaching the Torah.
How can that be if it was nailed to the stake of Christ? which it was not!

 

[Toknow]

Would you please explain the scriptures in Acts, the ones showing Paul was living by and teaching the Torah.
How can that be if it was nailed to the stake of Christ? which it was not!

@ZNP explained perfectly in post no. 6

Sometimes I do believe that we just do NOT want to leave our comfort zone.

Where does Paul say we are to live by the Torah?
Paul said THE LAW will not save us.

The Torah is abolished.
The Civil Laws are abolished.
The Ceremonial Laws are abolished.
The Moral Law will never be abolished because it represnts the very nature of God.

Hebrews states that we are trampling on the blood of Jesus if we go back to THE LAW.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

[Soyeong]

If Paul actually taught the Torah had been abolished, and all are now under grace, explain the following.

Romans 7

3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress:

but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Paul confirms the 3rd Commandment! Paul confirms -- adultery is Sin! How can this be -- If Torah had been abolished? Why would Paul be teaching “gentiles” in Rome, adultery is Sin?

12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Where are the commandments found, in the Torah? Thus, the word “Law” as used by Paul -- is Torah. Why, to Gentiles, is this taught?

Why would Christ or His Father allow to be abolished, what even Paul states is; “HOLY Just and Good”, What was established at THE Beginning as The WAY God judged in “Righteousness”, the world?

Where is it written Paul Is allowed to change, what had been in place for 4000 years? And Why Paul and not Jesus Christ, the Law giver?

NKJV Romans 3

9 What then? Are we (Jews) better than they? Not at all. For we have “”previously”’ charged both Jews and Greeks --- that they are all under sin.

Thus; From the mouth of Paul,,, both Jews and Greeks are --- “Under” the penalty of death for their sins – which IS the transgression of the Torah. 1 John 3: 4.

If the Torah - had been - abolished, how is it possible for Paul to make this statement ?

Some on this blog have stated the Gentiles are not subject to the Torah, only Jews must obey the Torah. That is not what Paul explains to Roman gentiles.

Sorry, Sin remains the transgression of the Torah, according to Paul and is not abolished.

In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish the Torah, but rather our faith upholds it.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith and this is why those who are under grace are not permitted to transgress the Torah (Romans 6:15). In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us to experience being doers of good works in obedience to the Torah is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation.

show me where any of the 13 apostles sacrificed?? or any of the Christians in that day.

Christ was the whole point of blood sacrifices, when He shed His blood that ended sacrifices.

do you know the Sacrificial Law was added to the Torah, it was never a part of the Old Covenant?
The OC contains nothing about sacrifices. ZERO

Sacrifices, bleeding to death of animals show us that our sin requires our death, Christ IS OUR PASSOVER.
Christ one sacrifice paid the penalty of death for 100's of billions.

As Paul states the blood of bulls and goats can never pay for our sins they were to remind us, to point to our need for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The Commandments, statutes and judgement Paul and the 12 kept, including the 7th Day Sabbath, the 7 Holy Feasts of God and the food laws.

they would not recognize what is called Christianity today

If the sacrifices were something separate from the Torah, then how would Paul planning to pay for the sacrifices of others under vow in Acts 21:20-24 disprove false rumors that he was teaching against obeying the Torah and show that he continued to live in obedience to it?

Would you please explain the scriptures in Acts, the ones showing Paul was living by and teaching the Torah.
How can that be if it was nailed to the stake of Christ? which it was not!

In Matthew 27:37, the nailed a handwritten ordinance to Christ's cross that announced the charge that was against him, which fits perfectly with the concept of the handwritten ordinance that announced the charges that were against us instead being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with nailing any laws to the cross.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul uses the accordance of the law to show how a woman is freed from it. She is no longer bound to the dead husband because his death releases her from the obligations to go along with being his wife. Likewise, Jesus rendered the law obsolete while maintaining the accordance of the law. However, what part of the law requires that He die in perfectly keeping the law? Did he effectively 'break' that law in dying even as He had no sin? No, Jesus came to do the will of His Father.

At no point was the woman set free from needing to obey the Torah and if she were to get married to another man after the death of her first husband, then she would still be required to refrain from committing adultery, so there is nothing in Romans 7:1-4 that leads to the conclusion that in the same way we have been set free from the Torah. Jesus said nothing about rending the Torah obsolete, but rather he specifically said that he did not come to abolish it and he warned against relaxing the least part of it (Matthew 5:17-19). In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Torah is His gift of eternal life and Jesus making the Torah obsolete would be making our gift of eternal life obsolete. The Father has made His will known through what He has commanded in the Torah (Psalms 40:8), so making the Torah obsolete would be the opposite of coming to do the will of the Father.

2Cor 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Jesus embodied the righteousness of God through his works by living in obedience to the Torah, that is also the way that we have the gift of getting to live by becoming the righteousness of God.

The gospel is the ministry of deliverance from sin and death (Ro 5:2; 1Cor 15:16), and the law is the ministry of death (2Cor 3:7)

In Romans 7-8:2, Paul said that the Torah is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he. wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which he served with his flesh, which held him captive, which the Law of the Spirit has freed us from, so the Torah is not the law of sin and death. Moreover, in Romans 8:3-7, Paul said that Christ was sent to free us from sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Torah and he contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah.

Why did the Israelites want to go back to Egypt after being delivered from Pharoah? They were set free and wanted to go back into bondage. I assert that they took comfort in what they knew, and they knew Pharaoh and it was obvious that they did not know God.
Well, now, we know Him. Jer 31:34

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by experiencing being in His likeness through embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know (yada) God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life. This is also why Jeremiah 31:33-34 connects God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts with knowing Him.

 

[ZNP]

show me where any of the 13 apostles sacrificed?? or any of the Christians in that day.

Christ was the whole point of blood sacrifices, when He shed His blood that ended sacrifices.

do you know the Sacrificial Law was added to the Torah, it was never a part of the Old Covenant?
The OC contains nothing about sacrifices. ZERO

Sacrifices, bleeding to death of animals show us that our sin requires our death, Christ IS OUR PASSOVER.
Christ one sacrifice paid the penalty of death for 100's of billions.

As Paul states the blood of bulls and goats can never pay for our sins they were to remind us, to point to our need for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The Commandments, statutes and judgement Paul and the 12 kept, including the 7th Day Sabbath, the 7 Holy Feasts of God and the food laws.

they would not recognize what is called Christianity today

You quoted Acts where James told Paul to pay for the vow that four men had on them. That vow was a custom of the Jews based on the Torah and it concludes with them sacrificing a bull. Paul was arrested prior to that sacrifice taking place. James had ordered Paul to pay for the sacrifice of a Bull in order to show that he kept the customs of the Jews according to the Torah. At the time they did not have the full revelation that was in the book of Hebrews, but I believe they both got that revelation and were both involved in writing that book.

 

[ZNP]

Would you please explain the scriptures in Acts, the ones showing Paul was living by and teaching the Torah.
How can that be if it was nailed to the stake of Christ? which it was not!

The full and complete explanation is the book of Hebrews.

The short, quick and concise explanation is that Jesus is our Passover, hence we don't sacrifice a lamb anymore, Jesus is the one who was sacrificed for us. Jesus is our sin offering on the cross, hence we don't sacrifice animals for our sins, He is our trespass offering, He is our peace offering and our meal offering and our burnt offering. When we are one with Jesus that is what is meant by the priest laying his hands on the offering. They were saying they were one with the animal that was being offered.

Now if we are crucified with Christ and laid in the tomb prior to the start of the sabbath it means that Jesus was in the tomb for the entire sabbath day and that was the completion of the sabbath rest. The first creation culiminates in death, that is our sabbath rest. We are told to keep the sabbath day holy, if we are one with Jesus in His death and His death was death to our self and our old man and our flesh, if we can truly say that we are dead to the world then that is our keeping the Sabbath holy. To be holy means to be fully separated unto God. Then Jesus rose on the 8th day, if we are in the new creation, in resurrection we can be one with the Lord to do a work in the new creation, if we are in the old creation then it is an insult to God, we are to be in the tomb with Christ, having died with Christ.

The proper way to keep the sabbath day holy is to be able to testify that it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me and that the life that I now live I live by the faith of the son of God.

 

[Soyeong]

Instead of claiming Paul taught something, why not actually quote what Paul did say and then instead of dealing with someone's interpretation we would be responding to what Paul actually said.

For example, while alive the woman is called an adulteress. Marriage is "till death do us part". According to Paul "I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me". So Paul taught that we have died with Christ. He also taught that the law of the Spirit overcomes the law of sin and death. So the law as a standard is not abolished, however, if you are one with the crucified and resurrected Christ you can meet that standard, if not, you can't.

This does not mean we are "sinless". What it does mean is it is like an airplane. The airplane has not done away with the law of gravity, but it has overcome it. However, you need engines that are working and the gas tank must be full.

Christ lived in obedience to the Torah, so that is also the way that we have the gift of getting to live when Christ is living in us. Dying with Christ is dying to sin, not dying to what he taught.

In Romans 7-8:2, Paul said that the Torah is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he. wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which he served with his flesh, which held him captive, which the Law of the Spirit has freed us from, so the Torah is not the law of sin and death. Moreover, in Romans 8:3-7, Paul said that Christ was sent to free us from sin so that we might be free to meet the righteous requirement of the Torah and he contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah.

Are you serious? Are you really defending the practice of sacrificing a bull after Jesus Christ has been sacrificed for you? When Paul was arrested in Jerusalem he was in the process of paying for the sacrifice of a bull for the vow that the Jews were making. The book of Hebrews makes it very clear that practice has been done away with, it pointed to the sacrifice that Jesus was going to make and after Jesus died for us we no longer sacrifice bulls and goats.

It is shameful for anyone claiming to be a Christian to try and tell us we need to go back to sacrificing bulls and goats. And that is precisely what you are doing when you quote these verses as evidence that Paul supports keeping the Torah. If you don't understand that then you don't understand the first thing about the New Testament, and if you did understand that and still tried to push that on us then you are a false teacher.

Paul was attempting to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it, so that point stands regardless of the means that he chose to try to do that. The purpose of the Torah is to point towards Christ and we should live in a way that points towards him by following his example of obedience to it rather than a way that points away from him. In Hebrews 8:4, it says that sacrifices were still being offered in accordance with the Torah. In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they speak against obeying the Torah, not if they teach obedience to it, so it is either incorrect to interpret Paul as doing that or he was a false prophet, but either way followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to the Torah. If you think that Paul was a servant of God, then you should be opposed to interpreting him as speaking against obeying what God has commanded, and if you think that he should be interpreted as speaking against obeying the Torah, then you should be opposed to interpreting him as speaking obeying what God has commanded, then you should be opposed to considering him to be a servant of God, but Deuteronomy 13 doesn't leave room for someone to consider Paul to be a servant of God while also thinking that he should be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

Jesus Christ has sacrificed Himself for your salvation, it is an insult to the blood of Christ to sacrifice a bull or goat for your atonement.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Christ accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20) while the way to insult the blood of Christ would be by returning the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.

You quoted Acts where James told Paul to pay for the vow that four men had on them. That vow was a custom of the Jews based on the Torah and it concludes with them sacrificing a bull. Paul was arrested prior to that sacrifice taking place. James had ordered Paul to pay for the sacrifice of a Bull in order to show that he kept the customs of the Jews according to the Torah. At the time they did not have the full revelation that was in the book of Hebrews, but I believe they both got that revelation and were both involved in writing that book.

Perhaps you are making the mistake rather than them.

The full and complete explanation is the book of Hebrews.

The short, quick and concise explanation is that Jesus is our Passover, hence we don't sacrifice a lamb anymore, Jesus is the one who was sacrificed for us. Jesus is our sin offering on the cross, hence we don't sacrifice animals for our sins, He is our trespass offering, He is our peace offering and our meal offering and our burnt offering. When we are one with Jesus that is what is meant by the priest laying his hands on the offering. They were saying they were one with the animal that was being offered.

In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to observe Passover, he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to observe it. The only way that we should cease to observe Passover is if what it teaches us about Christ is no longer true.

Now if we are crucified with Christ and laid in the tomb prior to the start of the sabbath it means that Jesus was in the tomb for the entire sabbath day and that was the completion of the sabbath rest. The first creation culiminates in death, that is our sabbath rest. We are told to keep the sabbath day holy, if we are one with Jesus in His death and His death was death to our self and our old man and our flesh, if we can truly say that we are dead to the world then that is our keeping the Sabbath holy. Then Jesus rose on the 8th day, if we are in the new creation, in resurrection we can be one with the Lord to do a work in the new creation, if we are in the old creation then it is an insult to God, we are to be in the tomb with Christ, having died with Christ.

The proper way to keep the sabbath day holy is to be able to testify that it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me and that the life that I now live I live by the faith of the son of God.

That is notably not what is stated in the Bible. Christ lived in obedience to the Torah, so that is the way that we have the gift of getting to live when he is living in us.

 

[memberofthebride]

There is no way to answer, too many.

I will read all the comments again and pick a few important issues and answer them.

 

[Soyeong]

@ZNP explained perfectly in post no. 6

Sometimes I do believe that we just do NOT want to leave our comfort zone.

Where does Paul say we are to live by the Torah?
Paul said THE LAW will not save us.

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to experience driving it. We can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Torah because it was never given as a way of doing that, but rather it was giving in order to graciously teach us what is intrinsically required in order to experience to experience the content of the gift of salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works in obedience to the Torah has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Ephesian 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously causing us to experience being doers of good works in obedience to the Torah is nevertheless a central part of the content of His gift of salvation.

The Torah is abolished.
The Civil Laws are abolished.
The Ceremonial Laws are abolished.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus specifically said that he did not come to abolish the Torah and he warned aghast relaxing the least part of it, and in Romans 3:31, Paul also confirmed that our faith does not abolish the Torah but rather our faith upholds it. Neither of those verses specify anything about civil, ceremonial, or moral laws. If a group of people were to create lists of which God's laws they though best fit into those categories, then they would end up with a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the Bible as if its authors had in mind a list of laws that they just created, especially when there is no way to even establish that they considered those to be categories of law. We are free to create whatever categories of law that we want and to decide for ourselves which laws we think best fit into our categories, but just because we can do that does not establish that the authors of the Bible used the same categories or that they would agree with us about which laws best fit into which of our categories.

The Moral Law will never be abolished because it represnts the very nature of God.

The existence of the Moral Law would imply that we could be acting morally while disobeying the laws that are not in that category, however, there are no examples in the Bible where disobedience to God is stated to be moral and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what ought to be done and we ought to embody God's nature in obedience to Him, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. For example, holiness is part of God's nature, so it is a moral issue, and in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy as God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes what some people consider to be ceremonial laws. Legislators give laws in accordance with their understanding of what ought to be done, so to claim that some of God's laws are not moral laws is to claim that God made a moral error in regard to what ought to be done when He gave those laws and is therefore to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.

Hebrews states that we are trampling on the blood of Jesus if we go back to THE LAW.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Those verses are warning against falling away from the good Word of God, not against going back to it.

 

[Undergrace1]

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question Acts15:5&6

So the leaders of the first century church met to decide which of the laws of Moses gentiles be asked to observe. Four were mentioned, three of which it is widely assumed were given to bring unity at the meeting.

If gentiles are supposed to obey all possible Torah then it is an indisputable fact the leaders of the first century church, including Peter, James and Paul gave gentiles a licence to sin as sin is the transgression of the law. No way around that I’m afraid.

Now some respond to this. ‘’They started with four laws, more would follow in time’’

But God’s applicable laws are not arbitrary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you ignore. You cannot pick and choose whether you commit sin or not.

The argument fails anyway, as years later, the leaders of the church confirmed to Paul they were STILL(STILL) only asking gentiles to follow the same four laws, none had been added!(Acts21:25)

Did Paul really believe gentiles must obey all possible Torah?

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Col2:16&17



I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean Rom14:14

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. ALL(ALL) food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble verse20

And of course, Paul was there at the Jerusalem council.