The Sin Nature is spiritual lust, not flesh and blood.

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I don't see anyone being immune. As soon as children start to form thoughts and intents, they are sinful.

I've come to see my condition as a macro version of what otherwise exists in people to lessor or greater degrees.
Don't know your condition.
But as to the fact that you don't see anyone as being immune...
Do you mean sinning?

Some are immune.
Those that do not understand.
Might be because they're young and do not understand sin.
Could be because there's a mental problem...for instance retardation...
and even worse.



"Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mine"
Romans 12....of course...
IF it's possible.
In some cases it isn't.



Look as how Romans 8 treats this.

Romans 8:8-10 KJV
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Paul is treating this as being in flesh means we are not saved, not having the Spirit of God/Christ. When we receive the Spirit, we are different people . . . new creation . . .
Right.
I think we agree.

Paul is comparing the flesh to the spirit...
the flesh being the opposite of the spirit.


What does it mean, the body is dead because of sin?

Romans 7:5 KJV
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

"our members" that is, our body parts. The writing is consistent throughout the Bible, that flesh is our physicallity, and the body is just that, our bodies.

Much love!
Agreed !
 
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ATG said:
1. Does anyone who says they are saved by their faith alone, believe they can live righteously at all times? Or, do they believe they will also do unrighteousness?

I unlike you don’t assume what millions of other people believe. I will answer for myself. I do not believe a person can become perfectly sinless in this lifetime.
It's well that you only nonanswer for yourself. Unlike you I don't believe millions of other people answer with a rambling nonanswer.

At least the Pharisees simply said they wouldn't answer, and left it at that, rather than trying to insult Jesus' intelligence with something else.


I would be very interested in your definition of sin.

Mat 21:24
And Jesus answered and said, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you...

1. Does anyone who says they are saved by their faith alone, believe they can live righteously at all times? Or, do they believe they will also do unrighteousness?
 
True. Good point again. You are distinguishing between skin flesh, and sinful 'flesh'. Scripture distinguishes between sinful flesh and natural flesh. And, men walking in the flesh, vs sinners walking after the flesh.

1Jo 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2Co 10:3
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not walk after the flesh:

The error of natural theology is to make all flesh in Scripture the same, without making difference between the natural flesh and the doctrine of the flesh.

As you say, the 'skin' flesh is not sinful in itself, but rather lusting after the flesh is sinful. Which also includes the very thoughts and intents of our hearts:

2Co 1:12
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

Jas 3:15
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.


The natural theologians would falsely call it an evil brain, but Jesus calls it an evil heart within the man:

Mat 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:

Evil thoughts are not flesh and blood, and so the doctrine of sinful 'flesh' is not the skin tissues. Sinful flesh, fleshly, and earthly only apply to the sinful heart and soul within the body, not the body itself.

God does not judge the natural body for the works of the flesh, but only the sinful, fleshly and earthly soul of the man:

Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.




Correct. The error is of the soul and spirit, not of the body. The spirit of a man is not responsible for natural errors of the body, such as deformity, blindness, and lame. Nor is the whole, lame, or blind body in error for evil doing, but only the soul and spirit within.

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jas 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


The sin nature is spiritual, not physical. The nature of sin is lust of heart for the flesh, not the skin and bones lusting for sin.

Sinful flesh is a lusting fleshly heart, not sinful skin tissues and blood pump.

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus judges the act of adultery, by the lusting of the heart alone, even without doing so with the body. The body is nothing, it's the spirit that does the work.

Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith Alone without works, is the body alone without the spirit. Faith Alone is not the spirit alone without the works of the body.
Nothing to be added !
You shoulda been a teacher !
(y)
 
Well, when and if that topic comes up...
it could also be discussed.
We're still brothers in Christ.
Or, should I say --- brother and sister.
:cool:
Not sure about that. He doesn’t consider anyone who has any sin at all an actual part of the body of Christ. So yea according to him I’m not his brother in Christ.
 
The verse you quoted doesn't support your assertion.
Your assertion without a verse doesn't support your assertion.

It seems you are arguing against an assertion I have not made.

It seems you are arguing you have not made an assertion, without asserting anything different.

If you have a problem with the clear distinction of the three presented in Scripture, take it up with God.
When someone does not assert anything different, then common language comprehension must suffice.

Scripture neither delineates, nor precludes the delineation of the soul's components.

Na-ah to what the Scripture says, is an assertion without a difference.

Have I ever implied that "mind, will, intellect, memory, imagination, and emotions" are either "alone" or also known as "faith alone"?

No.

Have you ever implied that "mind, will, intellect, memory, imagination, and emotions" are in the soul alone, without asserting any faith alone in the soul?

Yes.


You don't read too good.
You don't answer too good.

Cite the Scripture supporting your assertion, showing that the soul dies instantly upon the commission of sin.

Already have enough times. They are commonly known by most Christians, and rejected by some.

And so, this is a foundational error of Faith Alone justification, and blaming the body for sinning, not the soul. The body dies naturally in time. The soul dies at the time of sinning against God.

No one is walking in the fading light of God, while doing works of darkness.

ATG said:
Now I see why there is such a gulf fixed between the saint's reading of Scriptures, and that of sinners. We forget what it's like to read the Bible with a carnal mind.

Your slander is noted.

Your slander is inexplicable.

1. The comparison is open handed. So are you slandered, because you say, that you are the one reading the Bible with a carnal mind?

2. Are you slandered by not reading Scripture as I do? And yet, you say my reading is no good.

3. Do you say you read Scripture as a saint, and not as a sinner?

4. Or, you say saints and sinners all read Scripture the same?

5. Or, you just say anything is slander, that isn't something you would assert?

As I said, you don't answer too good...
 
But as to the fact that you don't see anyone as being immune...
Do you mean sinning?

I mean the bent towards sin. All people sin as soon as they are able, without exception. The "chooser" is broken. God can deliver us from that, but everyone starts that way.

I think we are born with this perversion in us, and it just gets worse as we go on to commit sins. The practice of sinning causes our brains to form around that (reward circuit, things like that, we could go into more detail on this if you like).

Paul is comparing the flesh to the spirit...
the flesh being the opposite of the spirit.

I think he's looking at flesh and spirit as being alternate sources of our life. We are in flesh, that is, we derive our life, and the patterns of our minds, from these bodies of flesh. When we are "in the spirit", this is to say we derive our life from the Spirit, and the renewing of the mind is when God trains us to stop following the ways of our fleshy minds, and to follow the ways of our new spirit mind.

Much love!
 
Okay, as you choose not to provide evidence, I will respond with assertions:

There is no Scripture stating or implying that “the body only obeys the spirit”.

There is no Scripture stating or implying that
“the natural seed has no lust in it”.

There is no Scripture stating or implying that
“the soul lusts for the flesh”.

Already given the Scriptures teaching it.

There is no Scripture stating that Jesus Christ is God. But Scripture teaches it.

Here's Scripture, that I haven't quoted yet:

Deu 12:15
Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart.

Deu 12:20
When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.


The soul lusts for the things of the flesh. Either for the good by blessing of God, or for the evil cursed of God.
 
I mean the bent towards sin. All people sin as soon as they are able, without exception. The "chooser" is broken. God can deliver us from that, but everyone starts that way.

I think we are born with this perversion in us, and it just gets worse as we go on to commit sins. The practice of sinning causes our brains to form around that (reward circuit, things like that, we could go into more detail on this if you like).



I think he's looking at flesh and spirit as being alternate sources of our life. We are in flesh, that is, we derive our life, and the patterns of our minds, from these bodies of flesh. When we are "in the spirit", this is to say we derive our life from the Spirit, and the renewing of the mind is when God trains us to stop following the ways of our fleshy minds, and to follow the ways of our new spirit mind.

Much love!
Well, there are some nuances up there...
I do agree that we're born with this tendency.
God won't hold us responsible till we understand that we're SINNING.
Kids understand when they do wrong...
but they don't understand sin. (a wrong against God).
 
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ATG said:
Faith Aloners have it backwards. They believe, like the natural man, that the works are only the body. And that faith is only with the spirit, hence being 'alone' without the works of the body. James 2 say that kind of faith is a dead corpse without the spirit.

This has nothing to do with belief in “faith alone”.
This has everything to do with belief in “faith alone”.

Unless of course, anyone having Faith Alone can show otherwise. Which is not unheard of, but certainly not common.
 
This has everything to do with belief in “faith alone”.

Unless of course, anyone having Faith Alone can show otherwise. Which is not unheard of, but certainly not common.
Which works must accompany faith for an individual to be saved?
 
God won't hold us responsible till we understand that we're SINNING.
Kids understand when they do wrong...
but they don't understand sin. (a wrong against God).

I see that also, for instance,

Romans 5:12-14 KJV
12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I understand this to mean that when we do not have God's commandment, He does not hold us accountable for "breaking" what He hadn't told us, just the same, sin kills regardless.

Much love!
 
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All the works Jesus said to do.

I guess this is about FAITH ALONE
or
SOLA FIDE

An idea that is recent and was never in the church.
More about the difference between one saying they are saved by faith alone and one having faith alone. When I hear someone say they are saved by faith alone, I hear that they have faith in the works of Christ and don’t believe their works are good enough to justify them. When atg hears someone say they are saved by faith alone, he hears that they only have faith and no works. It seems when he hears faith alone his mind goes straight to the dead faith in James. His doctrine of Christian perfection comes from the 19th century holiness movement.
 
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Not of works.
WHY don't we post scripture??

Not of works is referring to being saved.

Good works happen AFTER one is saved.
Good works do not save us.
Agree. But I asked what works were necessary for salvation. You said the ones Jesus said. I was wondering what those were.
 
Agreed.
It's explained like this:
Man is made up of BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT.
BODY and SOUL = A HUMAN PERSON
BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT = A SPIRITUAL (SAVED) PERSON IN CONTACT WITH GOD.

I've seen this a couple times from you elsewhere, but I'm not so sure about it. You say every man has body, soul, and spirit, which Scripture agrees:

Pro 18:14
The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?

Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


But then you say only the saved souls have spirit? As though the unsaved only have body and soul?

Do you mean only the saved have soul, body, spirit, and the Spirit of Christ?
 
Agree. But I asked what works were necessary for salvation. You said the ones Jesus said. I was wondering what those were.
Oh.

jesus said to ACT on His words...

Matthew 7:24
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, [p]may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock


ACTING on something means you're DOING something.
There's a whole list of things Jesus said to do.
Do you really need it?

Jesus said to visit the sick.
He said to pray.
He said to do the will of the Father so we must know what that will is.
He said to feed the poor.
He said to be a shining light.
He said to be the salt of the earth.

Really...you certainly know.