The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

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Inquisitor said:
You strongly teach the law.

You openly state that the law defines sin.

Then you narrow down the law to just ten commandments.

What about a plethora of other sins?

Loving the world. Loving money. Loving self. Sorcery, kidnapping, assaulting someone, anger, drunkenness.
drugs, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying. Avoiding tax,
driving through school zones at speed, disobeying civil law. The list is endless.

All rebellion against God, the Government, and society in general is sin.

All rebellion is sin.

I do really believe that people that hold to the law, that is, the ten commandments. Are capable of
profound levels of sin without even realizing it. Simply because they do not understand that we are a
new creation in Christ. A completely new inner person that undergoes an inner transformation driven
by the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately for you, where the fruit of the Holy Spirit resides the law itself becomes useless.

Your obedience is powerless to implement that inner change as only the Holy Spirit will do that.
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There is not one law the way Jesus taught from the Ten Commandments that doesn't have an umbrellas to one of the Ten Commandments. Mat 5:19-30 They are exceedingly broad Psa 119:96

If you think the Ten Commandments are too narrow you will have to take that up with the Author Exo31:18 Its the only law that God wrote and God spoke and God placed under His mercy seat or attornment seat Exo25:21 the law of Moses was added because of sin was placed besides the ark and held the record against mankind with its blessings and curses for breaking the Ten Commandments. We need to make sure our sins our covered from under God's mercy seat- covering our sins is not the answer Pro28:13 doing away with the law just covers our sins.

Why Scripture always points to the Ten Commandments as the law that defines what sin is.

1John3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
James 2:11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Romans 7:7 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Found only in Exo20:1-17 the He who said is God- is there anyone greater than He to define His own law and what sin is when breaking it?
 
SabbathBlessing said:
Romans 7:7 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
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A good idea to quote the whole passage to understand the context of what is being written:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom7:4-13
 
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Saul was guilty where the TC were concerned of transgression, he could not be righteous by obeying them, because he could not obey the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but he and God need know he broke. So biblically speaking, fail to obey that law, you fail to obey the TC!
 
vassal said:
Jesus asked that people keep the ten commandments that he was constantly teaching, if we love him. People who who belong to Him do as he asked. do you deny he was teaching the ten commandments? and what is it I avoid?
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OK, lets go with your view, Jesus taught the TC
So, if you refuse to lend to someone without ever expecting anything back you transgress the TC
If you fail to offer someone more than what they stole from you, you transgress the TC
If you invite friends or family home for a meal, rather than the poor, blind, lame and beggars you transgress the TC
If you fail to leap for joy when you are persecuted, you transgress the TC
If you fail to love your enemies, those who may malign, harrass or persecute you, you transgress the TC

I am only going by what you are stating, nothing more
You also state you must obey the TC to be righteous before God
 
SabbathBlessing said:
There is not one law the way Jesus taught from the Ten Commandments that doesn't have an umbrellas to one of the Ten Commandments. Mat 5:19-30 They are exceedingly broad Psa 119:96

I
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So, going by your words also:
If you refuse to lend to someone without ever expecting anything back you transgress the TC
If you fail to offer someone more than what they stole from you, you transgress the TC
If you invite friends or family home for a meal, rather than the poor, blind, lame and beggars you transgress the TC
If you fail to leap for joy when you are persecuted, you transgress the TC
If you fail to love your enemies, those who may malign, harrass or persecute you, you transgress the TC

I am only going by what you are stating, nothing more
 
Undergrace1 said:
Saul was guilty where the TC were concerned of transgression, he could not be righteous by obeying them, because he could not obey the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but he and God need know he broke. So biblically speaking, fail to obey that law, you fail to obey the TC!
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Paul was self-aware and this is a principal characteristic of being God aware. On the other hand, whitewashed sepulchers were only had concern for the world's awareness and that the world is blind provides them much comfort. I cannot imagine they are in the slightest bit concerned by God's awareness of their inner man, or else they then would be self-aware so, I can't help but conclude they regard God as ignorant or, is it better or worse to think :unsure:, totally nonexistent.
 
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Mem said:
Paul was self-aware and this is a principal characteristic of being God aware. On the other hand, whitewashed sepulchers were only had concern for the world's awareness and that the world is blind provides them much comfort. I cannot imagine they are in the slightest bit concerned by God's awareness of their inner man, or else they then would be self-aware so, I can't help but conclude they regard God as ignorant or, is it better or worse to think :unsure:, totally nonexistent.
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What does that say about people who insist you must obey the TC, but do not then hold what goes on, on the inside of man to as much importance as to what goes on, on the outside?
IE, if they do not hold to a Saturday sabbath, that must be fully obeyed they cannot attain to Heaven, but if they covet on the inside they can attain to Heaven, as they do not fully obey the commandment, not anywhere near in truth. In other words, the TC are flexible in the outworking of their lives in relation to what goes on, on the inside
 
Undergrace1 said:
What does that say about people who insist you must obey the TC, but do not then hold what goes on, on the inside of man to as much importance as to what goes on, on the outside?
IE, if they do not hold to a Saturday sabbath, that must be fully obeyed they cannot attain to Heaven, but if they covet on the inside they can attain to Heaven, as they do not fully obey the commandment, not anywhere near in truth. In other words, the TC are flexible in the outworking of their lives in relation to what goes on, on the inside
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It says that they are reflecting an imagine of a god that is supercilious, though they designate him to actually possess the capital G.
 
Mem said:
It says that they are reflecting an imagine of a god that is supercilious, though they designate him to actually possess the capital G.
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Probably the best comment I've read in this debate,
 
So, the argument that there is no righteousness in grace alone is a strawman.
 
Mem said:
So, the argument that there is no righteousness in grace alone is a strawman.
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I would say, under Paul's core message, you need to know you have righteousness by grace alone through faith, in order to live a holy life, because:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
And in a genuine conversion, the results will become evident
 
Undergrace1 said:
I would say, under Paul's core message, you need to know you have righteousness by grace alone through faith, in order to live a holy life, because:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
And in a genuine conversion, the results will become evident
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The faith that justice has been served on sin is pivotal in our ability to walk in newness of life. It doesn't keep the old man on life support where all the vital signs might keep the machine beeping but their no brain activity. It crucifies and buries him, and the resurrected man is hardly recognizable, except that he says, "it's me...again."
 
Undergrace1 said:
NIV 1984 edition
In the KJV, Paul states:
for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. Rom7:7&8 confirming verse 5 as I quoted.
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Verse 7 says. We would not know sin but by the Law. That is the starting. The point in which we know. Another way to say Occasion is starting point. Sin taking a starting point through the knowledge about sin in the commandments wrought in us all manner concupiscence.

Sin wrought all manner of Concupiscence not the Law.
In regard to Rom 7:5 the word translated passions does not mean desires as the word passion alludes to. It is a suffering, an evil affliction. (see below)



Paul says this in regard to the commendation to which the Law brings or the inner battle he was experiencing not being able to do the things that he wanted to do in regard to the Law. Hence his crying out at the end of the chapter, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
So no, sinful passions are not aroused in us by the Law. Condemnation is.

Thayer Lexicon: - Original: πάθημα
- Transliteration: Pathema
- Phonetic: path'-ay-mah
- Definition:
1. that which one suffers or has suffered
a. externally, a suffering, misfortune, calamity, evil, affliction
1. of the sufferings of christ
2. also the afflictions which Christians must undergo in behalf of the same cause which christ patiently endured
b. of an inward state, an affliction, passion
2. an enduring, undergoing, suffering
- Origin: from a presumed derivative of G3806
- TDNT entry: 20:30,8
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Neuter

- Strong's: From a presumed derivative of G3806; something undergone that is hardship or pain; subjectively an emotion or influence: - affection affliction motion suffering.

Undergrace1 said:
Sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law Rom7:5
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@Mem @Undergrace1

The problem with this entire line of reasoning that you were just discussing is that it creates a division Jesus never made. You are separating the inner man from obedience, and then using that separation to argue that commandments become “flexible” under grace. That is not Christ’s teaching.

Jesus did not say that because sin begins in the heart, obedience is therefore impossible or optional. He said the opposite. He went behind the commandment, exposed the heart, and then still held the commandment fully in force. Anger does not cancel “thou shalt not kill.” Lust does not cancel “thou shalt not commit adultery.” Coveting does not excuse disobedience. It condemns it more deeply.
Grace does not replace righteousness in Jesus’ gospel. Grace leads to it. Mercy forgives the sinner, but forgiveness is never presented by Jesus as permission to continue in sin. Every time Jesus forgives, He also commands change. “Go, and sin no more.” There is no category in Jesus’ teaching for grace that leaves a man unchanged.

Saying “the law offers no mercy” is simply false when read through Christ. Jesus showed mercy, but He never used mercy to weaken obedience. He intensified it. He said plainly, “If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments,” and He also warned that those who do not do the will of the Father will not enter the kingdom, no matter what they say with their lips.

Appealing to inner failure as a reason obedience cannot matter is not humility, it is evasion. Jesus did not lower the standard because the heart is sinful. He raised it and then called men to repentance, faith, and obedience from the heart. A faith that receives forgiveness but refuses obedience is not the faith Jesus preached.

Grace alone, if defined as mercy without repentance and forgiveness without transformation, does not save. That version of grace does not exist in the words of Christ. Grace saves by turning sinners into followers. Anything else may sound merciful, but it is not the gospel Jesus taught, and it will not stand when His words judge us.

Jesus never taught that grace removes God’s call to holiness. God said, “Ye shall be holy; for I am holy” (Leviticus 19:2), and Jesus restated the same standard when He said, “Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). He also warned that not everyone who speaks of Him will enter the kingdom, “but he that doeth the will of my Father” (Matthew 7:21). Grace forgives the sinner, but holiness remains the requirement. A gospel that saves without holiness is not the one Jesus preached.
 
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And ya'll need to stop talking about people and just focus on discussing the Bible.
 
Qt said:
Verse 7 says. We would not know sin but by the Law. That is the starting. The point in which we know. Another way to say Occasion is starting point. Sin taking a starting point through the knowledge about sin in the commandments wrought in us all manner concupiscence.

Sin wrought all manner of Concupiscence not the Law.
In regard to Rom 7:5 the word translated passions does not mean desires as the word passion alludes to. It is a suffering, an evil affliction. (see below)



Paul says this in regard to the commendation to which the Law brings or the inner battle he was experiencing not being able to do the things that he wanted to do in regard to the Law. Hence his crying out at the end of the chapter, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
So no, sinful passions are not aroused in us by the Law. Condemnation is.

Thayer Lexicon: - Original: πάθημα
- Transliteration: Pathema
- Phonetic: path'-ay-mah
- Definition:
1. that which one suffers or has suffered
a. externally, a suffering, misfortune, calamity, evil, affliction
1. of the sufferings of christ
2. also the afflictions which Christians must undergo in behalf of the same cause which christ patiently endured
b. of an inward state, an affliction, passion
2. an enduring, undergoing, suffering
- Origin: from a presumed derivative of G3806
- TDNT entry: 20:30,8
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Neuter

- Strong's: From a presumed derivative of G3806; something undergone that is hardship or pain; subjectively an emotion or influence: - affection affliction motion suffering.
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Surely we don't need dictionaries, discernment will do:
Someone says to a young teenager

‘’The righteous/justified will obey the TC,

Let us suppose the young teenager is not in ignorance as to what is entailed in obeying the TC, they know no watered down version of them exists. Before them stands the tenth commandment. They must NOT lust/ dwell on any impure thought. What will go through the young teenagers mind?



‘’I must not dwell on any impure thought, if I do it shows I Am not justified before God and will end up in hell’’

Im sure the young man would be petrified of such thoughts, what could you fear more, as a believer than being cast into hell for eternity?

Can you escape thinking of what you fear, or, will thoughts of what you fear consume you? Speaking for myself, when I was young, the more I feared something, the more wild imaginations went through my mind concerning what I feared, and so, concerning the young teenager:

‘’I don’t want to go to hell, I must not dwell on any impure thought, I must not’’



What will be the result? Well it shouldn‘t take much discernment to know. But Paul can explain it. In Rom7:7-11 he is speaking of the time the law came to him, as a thirteen year old, for that is when a young Jewish lad made a personal commitment to God:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence/sexual desire. For without the law sin was dead. Rom7:7&8
 
vassal said:
Grace alone, if defined as mercy without repentance and forgiveness without transformation, does not save. That version of grace does not exist in the words of Christ. Grace saves by turning sinners into followers. Anything else may sound merciful, but it is not the gospel Jesus taught, and it will not stand when His words judge us.
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Where is this being preached according to your referenced definitions?
The if then proposition is also true "if not, then not." If the law has brought one to repentance for forgiveness and is transformed, and it is only by grace that there is room given for repentance and forgiveness (and this room, or place given, is Christ), then it is grace, indeed, that saves, and not the law.

The Father's commandment is to believe in His Son, Ha Makom, the Place. He is in Father and Father is in Him, with the Holy Spirit, in the Holy of Holies.
 
Mem said:
So, the argument that there is no righteousness in grace alone is a strawman.
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Grace is not a license to be careless. Read your Bible. Jesus’ words matter, and we should not grow complacent.
 
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vassal said:
@Mem @Undergrace1

The problem with this entire line of reasoning that you were just discussing is that it creates a division Jesus never made. You are separating the inner man from obedience, and then using that separation to argue that commandments become “flexible” under grace. That is not Christ’s teaching.

Jesus did not say that because sin begins in the heart, obedience is therefore impossible or optional. He said the opposite. He went behind the commandment, exposed the heart, and then still held the commandment fully in force. Anger does not cancel “thou shalt not kill.” Lust does not cancel “thou shalt not commit adultery.” Coveting does not excuse disobedience. It condemns it more deeply.
Grace does not replace righteousness in Jesus’ gospel. Grace leads to it. Mercy forgives the sinner, but forgiveness is never presented by Jesus as permission to continue in sin. Every time Jesus forgives, He also commands change. “Go, and sin no more.” There is no category in Jesus’ teaching for grace that leaves a man unchanged.

Saying “the law offers no mercy” is simply false when read through Christ. Jesus showed mercy, but He never used mercy to weaken obedience. He intensified it. He said plainly, “If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments,” and He also warned that those who do not do the will of the Father will not enter the kingdom, no matter what they say with their lips.

Appealing to inner failure as a reason obedience cannot matter is not humility, it is evasion. Jesus did not lower the standard because the heart is sinful. He raised it and then called men to repentance, faith, and obedience from the heart. A faith that receives forgiveness but refuses obedience is not the faith Jesus preached.

Grace alone, if defined as mercy without repentance and forgiveness without transformation, does not save. That version of grace does not exist in the words of Christ. Grace saves by turning sinners into followers. Anything else may sound merciful, but it is not the gospel Jesus taught, and it will not stand when His words judge us.

Jesus never taught that grace removes God’s call to holiness. God said, “Ye shall be holy; for I am holy” (Leviticus 19:2), and Jesus restated the same standard when He said, “Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). He also warned that not everyone who speaks of Him will enter the kingdom, “but he that doeth the will of my Father” (Matthew 7:21). Grace forgives the sinner, but holiness remains the requirement. A gospel that saves without holiness is not the one Jesus preached.
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Im sorry, but I now have no regard for your posts. Yesterday you gave the thumbs down to my following post to you, which can only mean one thing in my view. You MUST obey the TC outwardly to be righteous, but not inwardly:

''''Would you not like to comment on the post as a whole? Can you confirm, as you believe righteousness hinges on obeying the TC, that includes not dwelling on any impure thought? If you do, you must end up in hell, for you cannot then be righteous in God's sight?''''

Im sure you would believe if you did not follow a saturday sabbath you could not expect to inherit eternal life
 
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