Saving Faith in Christ is not Faith Alone in Christ

Just_A__Follower · Jan 29, 2026

Undergrace1 said:
I guess you must be living a more holy life than the Apostle John:
If we(John includes himself in the we) claim(present tense) to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

He’s a follower of the 19th century holiness doctrine according to his claim. Although that doctrine still somewhat agreed that salvation is by faith alone. He however seem to not know the difference between one having faith alone and being saved by faith alone. The doctrine redefines sin. Basically only willful sin is classified as sin. Any sin that occurs due to mistakes, weakness, ignorance, etc doesn’t count. Righteousness is also redefined as being free from willful sin not all sin. Even John Wesley who taught it decided later in life he was wrong about most of it. For one to claim himself to be perfect is bathing himself in the sin of pride. Only God Himself can make that assessment.

ATG · Jan 29, 2026

Just_A__Follower said:
If you choose to follow doctrine that was spearheaded by a man who later rejected most of what he came up with that’s you.

The man Christ Jesus is spearheaded by Jesus, when quoting Him.

Just_A__Follower said:
Setting your own standard for righteousness and judging yourself to be righteous is playing with fire.

I've quoted enough time Jesus' words of righteousness, and His faith to do His righteousness, and not evil.

Setting your own standard for doing righteousness and unrighteousness, and judging yourself to be only righteous by your Faith Alone is burned by fire.

Deu 4:23
Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

2Th 1:6
When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Just_A__Follower said:
Also just a heads up no matter if it’s voluntary or involuntary, sin is sin.

There is no such thing as involuntary sin, else it would not be sin. "I didn't mean to do it." is only for ungrown children.

There is sinning by ignorance, which can be repented of by conviction and knowledge of the Spirit of grace.

Num 15:27
And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

1Ti 1:12
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

And so we see here once again, the difference between teaching what God says by Scripture, vs what people only say by their Faith Alone.

Just_A__Follower said:
I know your holiness movement doctrine likes to redefine things.

1 Peter{1:14}
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

God's holiness is in all manners, even as His righteousness is at all times. Not as man's holiness and self-righteousness mixed with sinning from time to time.

Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Once again, When I quote God, you act like I'm God and only speaking of my own way. "That's just what you say." is also only for ungrown children.

It's not rightly preaching Scripture that is acting like God, but only those teaching their own way by their Faith Alone:

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And since people by their Faith Alone only preach their own things, they judge all people to be doing the same as they:

Tit 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

ATG · Jan 29, 2026

pinebeach said:
Well I found 2 of the comments attributed to me are actually the work of one 'Dino'. It could have been worse. I might have been accused of saying something that ... oh I dunno...heishere actually said?

Never mind Dino. I have to figuratively 'bite my tongue' rather than respond to some of the comments from 'allthegoods' and a few other oopsie doopsies round here these places. But of course since they are perfect, I guess some of us would not recognize the great offense we bring to their sensibilities. I would enjoy those people standing up in church and pointing a knarly finger and accusing before an entire congregation.

Nothing like the great keyboard warriors of renown.

As it is, they don't believe in the great crowd of witnesses that actually do observe.

You're not Dino. I thought you were. You're right. You didn't make that quote, that shows how 'help' from people of Faith Alone, is no good help at all.

I quoted other 'helpful' words from you.

ATG · Jan 29, 2026

Undergrace1 said:
Yeah, I came into contact with someone I did not love in thought, word and deed, how about you?

That's it?

Mat 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess…Cleanse first that which is

Mat 21:12
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

By your measure, Jesus sinned in word and deed.

Or, did you curse them with profanity?

If you're doing like Jesus and no unrighteous evil, then why preach not doing like Jesus at all times?

ATG · Jan 29, 2026

Undergrace1 said:
So you perfectly without slip obey all of Jesus commands in the gospels? Wow, in over fifty years Ive never come across such a person. Well done indeed!

At this time today.

You ought to get around other Christians than your own kind, that do disobey Jesus as a matter of Faith Alone.

2Pe 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

1 Thess{5:22}
Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Jde 1:24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

ATG · Jan 29, 2026

Undergrace1 said:
I guess you must be living a more holy life than the Apostle John:
If we(John includes himself in the we) claim(present tense) to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

Correct.

John did not exclude himself, that if he were to turn from Jesus to walk in darkness, and still say he was with Jesus in the light, he would also become a self-deceiver without truth.

Only those deceiving themselves in saying they have no sin, while walking in darkness, would justify themselves by also saying all Christians must be doing the same.

Tit 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Just_A__Follower · Jan 29, 2026

ATG said:
The man Christ Jesus is spearheaded by Jesus, when quoting Him.

I've quoted enough time Jesus' words of righteousness, and His faith to do His righteousness, and not evil.

Setting your own standard for doing righteousness and unrighteousness, and judging yourself to be only righteous by your Faith Alone is burned by fire.

Deu 4:23
Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

2Th 1:6
When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

There is no such thing as involuntary sin, else it would not be sin. "I didn't mean to do it." is only for ungrown children.

There is sinning by ignorance, which can be repented of by conviction and knowledge of the Spirit of grace.

Num 15:27
And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

1Ti 1:12
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

And so we see here once again, the difference between teaching what God says by Scripture, vs what people only say by their Faith Alone.

1 Peter{1:14}
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

God's holiness is in all manners, even as His righteousness is at all times. Not as man's holiness and self-righteousness mixed with sinning from time to time.

Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Once again, When I quote God, you act like I'm God and only speaking of my own way. "That's just what you say." is also only for ungrown children.

It's not rightly preaching Scripture that is acting like God, but only those teaching their own way by their Faith Alone:

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And since people by their Faith Alone only preach their own things, they judge all people to be doing the same as they:

Tit 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

You don’t have to copy and paste scripture. You can simply write book, chapter, and verse. I haven’t bothered reading any of the scripture you’ve posted after I realized you completely misinterpret most of it. So save yourself some time and stop copying and pasting. As for you being sin free I’ve seen enough pride from you know that’s simply not true. I pray that you come to your senses and realize that Jesus Christ was the only sinless man to ever walk this earth and that fact didn’t change the day you decided you were without sin.

Dino246 · Jan 29, 2026

pinebeach said:
How is it that so many people who do not understand that salvation is by faith alone in Christ, meaning no good deeds, no nothing, just Jesus.

This comment above is both nasty and very wrong. I have been using this forum a good many years now (not my first membership so don't go by that) and I have never seen any post wherein anyone has said that faith gives you permission to sin. Never. Further, that has been explained multiple of multiple times over the years and yet this lie persists.

It is a pernicious lie and those spreading it, should ask themselves why they persist in this lie no matter how much biblical evidence to the contrary is presented. Study scripture. It does not say we become sinless when we follow Christ. It does not say the 10 commandments are the new covenant. It does not say if you do no 'works' you are not saved. It does not say anywhere that anything adds to salvation through Christ. EVERYTHING that occurs AFTER genuine salvation is not salvation. It portrays salvation is actual and true.

There is something dark and badly wrong to keep insisting that people have said they keep on sinning. Claiming you have no sin is the actual problem.

It’s rather telling that he lies about others (by willfully misrepresenting their beliefs) while claiming to be without sin.

pinebeach · Jan 29, 2026

ATG said:
You're not Dino. I thought you were. You're right. You didn't make that quote, that shows how 'help' from people of Faith Alone, is no good help at all.

I quoted other 'helpful' words from you.

how about the self righteous throne?

pinebeach · Jan 29, 2026

Dino246 said:
It’s rather telling that he lies about others (by willfully misrepresenting their beliefs) while claiming to be without sin.

He must recognize it during self reflection. Then again....

Guess he comes here to be reminded.

sawdust · Jan 29, 2026

ATG said:
I.e. Works are not a condition to obtain saving faith alone without works. Which, of course, refers to the "faith alone" that is faith without works for salvation.

You want to be different from other people with Faith Alone, without a difference in your Faith Alone.

Rather than rephrasing Faith Alone to make it sound better, why not just repent of having Faith Alone, and instead receive Jesus' faith that always does good, and not evil?

Dead faith, no works. All Faith Alone without works, is dead to God and man.

Sinful works are not a result of saving faith in Jesus Christ, but only from a faith in a false Christ alone.

I don't even know what it is you are arguing about. Where have I said faith in a false Christ will produce good works?

We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. If you want to know if a person has fulfilled that condition they will produce works fitted to Christ's saving power.

You are not making any sense to me so you have a nice day.

grace and peace.

Undergrace1 · Jan 29, 2026

ATG said:
That's it?

Mat 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess…Cleanse first that which is

Mat 21:12
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

By your measure, Jesus sinned in word and deed.

Or, did you curse them with profanity?

If you're doing like Jesus and no unrighteous evil, then why preach not doing like Jesus at all times?

1Cor3:20

Undergrace1 · Jan 29, 2026

ATG said:
At this time today.

You ought to get around other Christians than your own kind, that do disobey Jesus as a matter of Faith Alone.

2Pe 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

1 Thess{5:22}
Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Jde 1:24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Matt23:2&3

Undergrace1 · Jan 29, 2026

ATG said:
Correct.

John did not exclude himself, that if he were to turn from Jesus to walk in darkness, and still say he was with Jesus in the light, he would also become a self-deceiver without truth.

Only those deceiving themselves in saying they have no sin, while walking in darkness, would justify themselves by also saying all Christians must be doing the same.

Tit 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Ridiculous

ATG · Jan 29, 2026

pinebeach said:
How is it that so many people who do not understand that salvation is by faith alone in Christ, meaning no good deeds, no nothing, just Jesus.

Ok. You understand that salvation by Faith Alone in Christ is without doing any good.

But what about when doing evil?

We all here about the disclaimer of being saved by Faith Alone, without doing any good works. Which of course is quite humble. But what about being saved by Faith Alone when doing evil works?

pinebeach said:
ATG said:
Then you are doubly condemned for preaching saved by Faith Alone with sinning.

This comment above is both nasty and very wrong.

Once again, when you are sinning, are you saved by your Faith Alone? Or, you are not saved by your Faith Alone when sinning?

Or, you are never sinning, when saved by your Faith Alone?

pinebeach said:
I have been using this forum a good many years now (not my first membership so don't go by that) and I have never seen any post wherein anyone has said that faith gives you permission to sin. Never.

God forbid. Neither have I.

Some only say that when they do commit iniquity, that their Faith Alone is justifies them, and they are not condemned the same as others doing the same thing.

And every one of them also says that they will do unrighteousness again, and will be still be justified by their Faith Alone.

Difference without a difference. It's not a permission nor license, but a self-justifying excuse to do evil again:

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?...For there is no respect of persons with God.

pinebeach said:
It does not say we become sinless when we follow Christ.

Mat 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jhn 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1Jo 3:5
And we know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him is not sinning: whosoever is sinning hath not seen him, neither known him.

Since Jesus has no sin in Him, how can He have sin in His body? And, Scripture certainly doesn't say that anyone remains sinful when following Jesus Christ. Only a sinful Christ has sinful followers.

Mat 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

We that repent of our own sinning and trespassing for Jesus' sake, do know that Jesus does take away our sinning and unrighteousness, that by His faith we walk as He walked.

How can any sinful person be walking with Jesus while sinning? Or, do you only follow along stumbling at a distance?

2 pet 1:4
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

pinebeach said:
It does not say the 10 commandments are the new covenant.

Not sure where this comes from, but OK. The Sabbath is not commanded in the NT. All the other 9 are. Including the First and greatest
commandment:

Deu 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

pinebeach said:
It does not say if you do no 'works' you are not saved.

No, only if doing evil works, is anyone of that wicked one. And, also not doing the good we know:

Jas 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Jhn 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever is committing sin is the servant of sin.

1Jo 3:8
He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning. For this

Can anyone be of that wicked one, and be saved by their Faith Alone? Then neither can anyone be committing iniquity, and be saved by their Faith Alone.

pinebeach said:
It does not say anywhere that anything adds to salvation through Christ.

Scripture says works are added to our faith in Jesus Christ, to ensure our salvation is forever:

2 pet 1:4
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;...and to brotherly kindness charity.

Wherefore, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

This has been an interesting exercise in someone stating what no one teaches from Scripture, in order to justify teaching what Scripture never states. Strawman on steroids.

pinebeach said:
EVERYTHING that occurs AFTER genuine salvation is not salvation. It portrays salvation is actual and true.

Tell me about it. Doing evil of that wicked one, has nothing to do with being saved from sin by Jesus Christ the righteous.

That actually portrays a sinful salvation that is of an unrighteous Christ.

pinebeach said:
There is something dark and badly wrong to keep insisting that people have said they keep on sinning. Claiming you have no sin is the actual problem.

You've said several amazing things, but I must admit, this one is astounding. And exactly True.

People who declare they are not sinless, and do sin in life, have something dark and badly wrong with their faith. Especially blaming it on the righteous, that are not doing their sinning...

Rev 17:4
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:...and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Undergrace1 · Jan 29, 2026

Here's someone who lived by faith alone:

A business man dreaded going away on business trips and leaving his family behind, for every time he did he was addicted to watching porn on his laptop. One day he entered a church, the minister was preaching on Jesus dying for all our sins, past, present and future. The man dared to believe it and went on his way.
Imagine that, he’s now got a Christianity based solely on faith in Christ dying for his sins.
How did he view his new found belief? Did he continue to watch porn as much as he liked? No! in a short space of time he was completely delivered from it.

HealthAndHappiness · Jan 29, 2026

I John wa

ATG said:
The difference between having faith in Jesus Christ, and having faith alone in Christ, is simple:

Faith in Jesus Christ is to only do good, and not any evil. We believe Jesus saves us from doing any evil, by giving us grace to only please the Father: By that good faith in Christ, we can walk as He walked.

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Phl 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Faith alone in Christ, apart from works, is only faith that Christ is God. Being apart from our works, by definition it's not the faith in Christ that always does good.

Faith alone in Christ only agrees that Christ is God, apart from whether our deeds are good or evil. Whether we are pleasing or displeasing the Father in our deeds, we believe Christ is God, and so are saved and justified by our faith alone. We believe we are pleasing the Father by our faith alone, that that Christ is His Son.

Only having faith that Christ is God without doing good, does not please the Father, no more than the devils that also believe:

Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Believing that Christ is God is certainly better than them that do not believe, and them that believe in another god, but having faith alone in Christ being God, does not justify any man or devil.

The only faith in Christ that saves, is the faith toward God that does good, and does no evil:

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

1 John{2:29}
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that is doing righteousness is born of him.

3 John{1:11}
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that is doing good is of God: but he that is doing evil hath not seen God.

No man doing unrighteousness is justified by their faith alone in Christ, being by definition without doing good.

1Jo 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Therefore, are we loving and pleasing God by faith in Christ alone? Or, with deeds that love and please God?

Do we believe Jesus Christ is God? Good. Do we believe Christ saves us whether doing good or evil? The devils also believe.

Do we believe Jesus Christ delivers us from all evil, to only do good and please the Father as the Son? We have the faith in Christ that saves the soul from sinning, and justifies the righteous life with God.

Do we believe we can do righteousness at all times in Christ? We have good faith in Christ. Do we believe we cannot always do good, but will sin like all sinners? Out faith in Christ is not good.

If we do not believe in doing righteousness at all times and walk like Jesus walked, our faith alone that Christ is God, is no better than the unbelievers who also do not believe in always doing good and pleasing the Father like Jesus.

I John was written to believers who were already saved for time, for eternity. They were acknowledged as such by John as you can read in the first chapter.
He said that if we say that we have not sinned, we make Him to be a liar.
This is backed by plenty of references from both old and New testaments.

Then the key to understanding that epistle is the point that he differentiates the old man from the new one who is born again. The first is of the flesh and cannot be made sinless. It remains until death occurs when the soul and spirit leave the sinful flesh behind.
Then John explained that the new nature of the new man in Christ Jesus does not sin. Paul explained the same, but in a different way.
If you get this confused, then you will find contradictions in the epistle that just aren't there, Like I John 1:8 KJV.

ATG · Jan 29, 2026

pinebeach said:
You would be wise not to continue to come up with your harrassing accusations that we all live in sin. That is a false accusation and by now, as another poster said, we are starting to think you do it on purpose.

Whoever said they are not sinning, and I say they live in sin? And yet, when I say I am not sinning, I am accused of living in sin?

If you are only doing good in life, then say so. I won't accuse you of lying, and I certainly wouldn't object to saying you do so by the faith of Jesus, but thank God alone for it.

Phl 2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

pinebeach · Jan 29, 2026

ATG said:
Ok. You understand that salvation by Faith Alone in Christ is without doing any good.

sawdust said:
I don't even know what it is you are arguing about. Where have I said faith in a false Christ will produce good works?

We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. If you want to know if a person has fulfilled that condition they will produce works fitted to Christ's saving power.

You are not making any sense to me so you have a nice day.

grace and peace.

Oh good. You understand the dilemma. You are also in good company.

Undergrace1 · Jan 29, 2026

pinebeach said:
Oh good. You understand the dilemma. You are also in good company.

In truth, he is more guilty of sin than we who believe in faith alone, always the way

Saving Faith in Christ is not Faith Alone in Christ

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