Gospel Confusion...
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I asked CHAT GPT about the two apparent gospels.
Here is CHAT GPT restricted to using the N.T. only.
Yes, in the New Testament (NT), there is a distinction in emphasis between the "gospel of the kingdom" and the "gospel of grace", though they ultimately refer to the same good news centered on Jesus Christ. The difference lies primarily in emphasis, timing, and audience focus rather than in content that contradicts.
1. Gospel of the Kingdom
2. Gospel of Grace
Are They Two Different Gospels?
No, not in the sense of being contradictory or competing messages. The NT presents one gospel, progressively revealed and applied across different phases of redemptive history.
In short:
Here is CHAT GPT restricted to using the N.T. only.
Yes, in the New Testament (NT), there is a distinction in emphasis between the "gospel of the kingdom" and the "gospel of grace", though they ultimately refer to the same good news centered on Jesus Christ. The difference lies primarily in emphasis, timing, and audience focus rather than in content that contradicts.
1. Gospel of the Kingdom
- Focus: The coming of God's reign and rule.
- Key Phrase: "Gospel of the kingdom" (Greek: euangelion tēs basileias)
- Preached By: Jesus and His disciples, especially before the cross.
- Representative Verses:
- Matthew 4:23 – "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom..."
- Matthew 9:35, 24:14, Luke 4:43
- Audience: Primarily the Jews.
- Content: Announcement that the kingdom of God is at hand, calling for repentance in light of the Messiah's arrival.
- Emphasis: Fulfillment of Old Testament promises, the nearness of the kingdom, and Jesus as the Davidic King.
2. Gospel of Grace
- Focus: Salvation by grace through faith in Christ's finished work.
- Key Phrase: "Gospel of the grace of God"
- Preached By: Primarily the Apostle Paul (post-resurrection).
- Representative Verse:
- Acts 20:24 – "...the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God."
- Ephesians 2:8–9 – "For by grace you have been saved through faith..."
- Audience: Jews and Gentiles.
- Content: Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, offered freely to all who believe.
- Emphasis: Justification by faith apart from the law, unity of Jews and Gentiles in one body.
Are They Two Different Gospels?
No, not in the sense of being contradictory or competing messages. The NT presents one gospel, progressively revealed and applied across different phases of redemptive history.
- Paul insists in Galatians 1:6–9 that there is only one true gospel.
- The "gospel of the kingdom" emphasizes the Messianic fulfillment and God’s reign.
- The "gospel of grace" emphasizes the means of entry (grace through faith in Christ’s atonement).
In short:
Same gospel, different emphases depending on the stage of redemptive history and the audience.
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That's a thoughtful and deep question. Let's take a close, New Testament-only look at how the Reformed acronym TULIP fares when evaluated through the specific theological lens of Romans 1–11, especially focusing on the corporate, historical question Paul is answering: Why did Israel, God’s chosen people, fail to attain righteousness?
TULIP Defined (Quick Recap)
T – Total Depravity
U – Unconditional Election
L – Limited Atonement
I – Irresistible Grace
P – Perseverance of the Saints
The Theological Frame of Romans 1–11
Romans 1–11 is not chiefly about individual salvation, but about God’s covenant faithfulness, and why Israel failed (corporately), despite having every advantage (Rom 9:4–5). Paul explores the mystery of Israel’s unbelief and the inclusion of Gentiles, placing both under sin (Rom 3:9), but also under God's mercy (Rom 11:32). The framing is corporate, covenantal, and salvation-historical.
Now, Evaluate Each Point of TULIP in Light of Romans 1–11
T – Total Depravity
Romans 1–3 strongly affirms the universality of human sin, both Jew and Gentile:
“There is none righteous, no, not one” (Rom 3:10).
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23).
This depravity affects not just behavior, but mind and will (Rom 1:21–28; 8:7). However, Paul emphasizes not only personal depravity but also corporate rebellion (e.g., Gentile nations in ch. 1, Israel in chs. 2–3 and 9–10).
✅ Affirmed, but the emphasis is on both individual and collective estrangement from God.
U – Unconditional Election
Romans 9 is often a key text for this doctrine. Paul discusses God’s sovereign choice of Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, “before they had done anything good or bad” (Rom 9:11). He emphasizes God’s purpose in election (ἐκλογῆς), not based on works but on Him who calls.
However, in context, Paul's concern is primarily Israel's corporate election and their stumbling, not personal predestination to heaven or hell. He also includes the remnant motif (Rom 9:27), and speaks of Gentiles being grafted in (Rom 11).
✅ Partially affirmed — Paul speaks of God’s sovereign election, but the focus is covenantal/corporate, not individualized salvation predestination.
L – Limited Atonement
This is the most strained point from Romans. Paul says:
“God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all” (Rom 11:32).
“Christ died for the ungodly” (Rom 5:6), and “for all” in some universalizing sense.
Paul’s view of the atonement in Romans seems universal in scope, though not universalistic in outcome.
❌ Not affirmed — Romans doesn’t support the idea that Christ died only for the elect. The atonement is portrayed as sufficient and offered to all.
I – Irresistible Grace
Romans 8:30 says, “those whom He predestined He also called … justified … glorified,” which sounds like a seamless chain. But Romans 10 makes clear that Israel heard the gospel but did not obey (Rom 10:16), showing grace can be resisted.
Also, the Gentiles’ inclusion comes through faith, but they too can be cut off (Rom 11:20–22), implying grace must be responded to and can be resisted.
❌ Not clearly affirmed — While calling and election are strong themes, Romans emphasizes human responsibility and the possibility of resistance.
P – Perseverance of the Saints
Romans 8:38–39 declares nothing can separate believers from God’s love in Christ. Paul is confident of ultimate glorification for those in Christ. However, Romans 11 warns Gentile believers not to become proud, “for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either” (Rom 11:21–22).
This introduces a conditional tone to perseverance — those who “stand by faith” must continue in God’s kindness.
✅/❌ Ambiguous — Perseverance is promised for the faithful, but warning texts imply that ongoing faith and humility are necessary.
Summary Table – TULIP in Light of Romans 1–11
TULIP Element Supported in Romans 1–11? Notes
T – Total Depravity ✅ Yes Strong universal sinfulness emphasized
U – Unconditional Election ✅/❓ Yes, but corporately focused Election is about God’s purposes in history, not individual destiny
L – Limited Atonement ❌ No Atonement portrayed as universally available
I – Irresistible Grace ❌ No Grace is resisted by Israel; human response matters
P – Perseverance ✅/❌ Mixed God’s love is firm, but perseverance appears conditional
Conclusion:
Romans 1–11 does not cleanly support the full TULIP model, particularly if read through its covenantal and historical focus on Israel and the Gentiles. While some elements (like depravity and divine election) are clearly present, others (like limited atonement and irresistible grace) either aren't in view or are contradicted by the text’s emphasis on human response, faith, and corporate participation.
TULIP Defined (Quick Recap)
T – Total Depravity
U – Unconditional Election
L – Limited Atonement
I – Irresistible Grace
P – Perseverance of the Saints
The Theological Frame of Romans 1–11
Romans 1–11 is not chiefly about individual salvation, but about God’s covenant faithfulness, and why Israel failed (corporately), despite having every advantage (Rom 9:4–5). Paul explores the mystery of Israel’s unbelief and the inclusion of Gentiles, placing both under sin (Rom 3:9), but also under God's mercy (Rom 11:32). The framing is corporate, covenantal, and salvation-historical.
Now, Evaluate Each Point of TULIP in Light of Romans 1–11
T – Total Depravity
Romans 1–3 strongly affirms the universality of human sin, both Jew and Gentile:
“There is none righteous, no, not one” (Rom 3:10).
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23).
This depravity affects not just behavior, but mind and will (Rom 1:21–28; 8:7). However, Paul emphasizes not only personal depravity but also corporate rebellion (e.g., Gentile nations in ch. 1, Israel in chs. 2–3 and 9–10).
✅ Affirmed, but the emphasis is on both individual and collective estrangement from God.
U – Unconditional Election
Romans 9 is often a key text for this doctrine. Paul discusses God’s sovereign choice of Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, “before they had done anything good or bad” (Rom 9:11). He emphasizes God’s purpose in election (ἐκλογῆς), not based on works but on Him who calls.
However, in context, Paul's concern is primarily Israel's corporate election and their stumbling, not personal predestination to heaven or hell. He also includes the remnant motif (Rom 9:27), and speaks of Gentiles being grafted in (Rom 11).
✅ Partially affirmed — Paul speaks of God’s sovereign election, but the focus is covenantal/corporate, not individualized salvation predestination.
L – Limited Atonement
This is the most strained point from Romans. Paul says:
“God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all” (Rom 11:32).
“Christ died for the ungodly” (Rom 5:6), and “for all” in some universalizing sense.
Paul’s view of the atonement in Romans seems universal in scope, though not universalistic in outcome.
❌ Not affirmed — Romans doesn’t support the idea that Christ died only for the elect. The atonement is portrayed as sufficient and offered to all.
I – Irresistible Grace
Romans 8:30 says, “those whom He predestined He also called … justified … glorified,” which sounds like a seamless chain. But Romans 10 makes clear that Israel heard the gospel but did not obey (Rom 10:16), showing grace can be resisted.
Also, the Gentiles’ inclusion comes through faith, but they too can be cut off (Rom 11:20–22), implying grace must be responded to and can be resisted.
❌ Not clearly affirmed — While calling and election are strong themes, Romans emphasizes human responsibility and the possibility of resistance.
P – Perseverance of the Saints
Romans 8:38–39 declares nothing can separate believers from God’s love in Christ. Paul is confident of ultimate glorification for those in Christ. However, Romans 11 warns Gentile believers not to become proud, “for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either” (Rom 11:21–22).
This introduces a conditional tone to perseverance — those who “stand by faith” must continue in God’s kindness.
✅/❌ Ambiguous — Perseverance is promised for the faithful, but warning texts imply that ongoing faith and humility are necessary.
Summary Table – TULIP in Light of Romans 1–11
TULIP Element Supported in Romans 1–11? Notes
T – Total Depravity ✅ Yes Strong universal sinfulness emphasized
U – Unconditional Election ✅/❓ Yes, but corporately focused Election is about God’s purposes in history, not individual destiny
L – Limited Atonement ❌ No Atonement portrayed as universally available
I – Irresistible Grace ❌ No Grace is resisted by Israel; human response matters
P – Perseverance ✅/❌ Mixed God’s love is firm, but perseverance appears conditional
Conclusion:
Romans 1–11 does not cleanly support the full TULIP model, particularly if read through its covenantal and historical focus on Israel and the Gentiles. While some elements (like depravity and divine election) are clearly present, others (like limited atonement and irresistible grace) either aren't in view or are contradicted by the text’s emphasis on human response, faith, and corporate participation.
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14 KJV
“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:46-48
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned. ….
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
Mark 16:15-16, 20 KJV
The apostle Paul writes
“After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.”
1 Corinthians 15:7-9, 11
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 1:16-17 KJV
“And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.”
Acts 15:7-9, 11-12 KJV
“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(^^^ this happens a lot )
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
2 Peter 3:15-18 KJV
they were definately all preaching the same gospel to anyone and everyone who would listen . We still hear tbier witness on scripture
Matthew 24:14 KJV
“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:46-48
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned. ….
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
Mark 16:15-16, 20 KJV
The apostle Paul writes
“After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.”
1 Corinthians 15:7-9, 11
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 1:16-17 KJV
“And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.”
Acts 15:7-9, 11-12 KJV
“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(^^^ this happens a lot )
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
2 Peter 3:15-18 KJV
they were definately all preaching the same gospel to anyone and everyone who would listen . We still hear tbier witness on scripture
Yeah this couldn’t possibly be related to baptism into Christ
“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
Acts 8:35-39 KJV
The Holy Spirit was in the apostle Philip who baptized him in water because he preached Jesus to him beforehand . The man was reading Isaiah 53 about Jesus death for our sins the apostle Philip then baptized the man in water according to his faith in Christ Jesus and who Jesus is .
if baptism isnt done in water like the apostle of Jesus Christ who’s filled with the spirit is doing it , how would an apostle baptize someone like Jesus commanded them to do ?
Peter and Philip two apostles of Jesus Christ our lord chosen witnesses of the gospel baptized in Jesus name in water when people believed in him …..
“For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:46-48 KJV
I can hear you guys now lol “” no no apostle Peter you and apostle Philip need to understand what i tell you “water baptism “ is not relevant anymore 😂
theres way at all baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins has anything at all to do with what Paul’s saying here nope …. He is writing about baptism into Jesus Christ though and he’s explaining about remission of sins in his death and how that applies through baptism to the believer tbough …. Seems like Paul and Peter might have just been two apostles preaching the lords gospel to all people and that baptism was about remission of sins in Jesus name
“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, ( literally explaining sins being remitted in baptism into Jesus Christ ) wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, (< before baptism after baotism >) hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
Colossians 2:11-13 KJV
This baptism
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 2:38 KJV
Probably has nothing to do with this…..🙄
“God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life….. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
Romans 6:2-4, 6-7 KJV
“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
Acts 8:35-39 KJV
The Holy Spirit was in the apostle Philip who baptized him in water because he preached Jesus to him beforehand . The man was reading Isaiah 53 about Jesus death for our sins the apostle Philip then baptized the man in water according to his faith in Christ Jesus and who Jesus is .
if baptism isnt done in water like the apostle of Jesus Christ who’s filled with the spirit is doing it , how would an apostle baptize someone like Jesus commanded them to do ?
Peter and Philip two apostles of Jesus Christ our lord chosen witnesses of the gospel baptized in Jesus name in water when people believed in him …..
“For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:46-48 KJV
I can hear you guys now lol “” no no apostle Peter you and apostle Philip need to understand what i tell you “water baptism “ is not relevant anymore 😂
theres way at all baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins has anything at all to do with what Paul’s saying here nope …. He is writing about baptism into Jesus Christ though and he’s explaining about remission of sins in his death and how that applies through baptism to the believer tbough …. Seems like Paul and Peter might have just been two apostles preaching the lords gospel to all people and that baptism was about remission of sins in Jesus name
“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, ( literally explaining sins being remitted in baptism into Jesus Christ ) wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, (< before baptism after baotism >) hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
Colossians 2:11-13 KJV
This baptism
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 2:38 KJV
Probably has nothing to do with this…..🙄
“God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life….. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
Romans 6:2-4, 6-7 KJV
I've already warned you about AI, and how it will mislead you, and it has. You have failed to even read the differences between the gospel defined in Acts 2 compared to that of Paul's Gospel in 1 Cor. 15.
Polly want a cracker...? This is the same fodder of church traditions passed down from the Roman Catholic religion of times gone by. When one parrots the same old stuff the bandwagoneers around him spouts, he will never be cast off that wagon.
MM
Polly want a cracker...? This is the same fodder of church traditions passed down from the Roman Catholic religion of times gone by. When one parrots the same old stuff the bandwagoneers around him spouts, he will never be cast off that wagon.
MM
Sorry, I thought you might be aware of the debate on the Understanding God's Election thread.
In post #462 on the Hermeneutics thread, where we are conducting a systematic study of that doctrine,
I explain MFW as follows:
M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral one: seek right/truth/love, and His moral option presumes human volition even for sinners, which makes them morally accountable.
F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are justly condemned.
W – Will refers to faith or seeking salvation—or not, and accepting God’s grace is not meritorious.
One of the clearest statements of the Moral option in Scripture is Deut. 30:19b, “I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.” Jesus equated moral right with spiritual truth and acceptance of him as Messiah (John 8:31 & 40-47), and Paul taught that the purpose of moral law and conscience is to lead sinners to faith in the Gospel of Christ (Romans 2:14-15, 3:20, Gal. 3:19 & 24).
Sinners are Free to receive God’s grace or salvation by means of volition or faith, which is the condition but not the cause of salvation. The reason this truth is a stumbling-block for TULIPists is because they have been brain-washed to believe that faith is a meritorious work. Although Jesus said in John 6:29 that “the work of God is to believe in the one he has sent”, there is no reason to think Jesus viewed such faith as meritorious instead of merely indicating that a soul’s faith willingly cooperates with the will of God.
Although sinful souls are described as depraved and unable to save themselves, this does not mean they have no Will and are mere animals who live by instinct or robots who act as programmed and are thus not accountable for moral behavior. The clearest NT Scripture supporting this view is Matthew 23:37, in which Jesus laments that Jerusalem was “not willing” to be saved.
In post #462 on the Hermeneutics thread, where we are conducting a systematic study of that doctrine,
I explain MFW as follows:
M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral one: seek right/truth/love, and His moral option presumes human volition even for sinners, which makes them morally accountable.
F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are justly condemned.
W – Will refers to faith or seeking salvation—or not, and accepting God’s grace is not meritorious.
One of the clearest statements of the Moral option in Scripture is Deut. 30:19b, “I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.” Jesus equated moral right with spiritual truth and acceptance of him as Messiah (John 8:31 & 40-47), and Paul taught that the purpose of moral law and conscience is to lead sinners to faith in the Gospel of Christ (Romans 2:14-15, 3:20, Gal. 3:19 & 24).
Sinners are Free to receive God’s grace or salvation by means of volition or faith, which is the condition but not the cause of salvation. The reason this truth is a stumbling-block for TULIPists is because they have been brain-washed to believe that faith is a meritorious work. Although Jesus said in John 6:29 that “the work of God is to believe in the one he has sent”, there is no reason to think Jesus viewed such faith as meritorious instead of merely indicating that a soul’s faith willingly cooperates with the will of God.
Although sinful souls are described as depraved and unable to save themselves, this does not mean they have no Will and are mere animals who live by instinct or robots who act as programmed and are thus not accountable for moral behavior. The clearest NT Scripture supporting this view is Matthew 23:37, in which Jesus laments that Jerusalem was “not willing” to be saved.
Bandwagoneering generally is defined by the following:
- Dogmatism: This refers to the tendency to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true, without consideration of evidence against one's position quoted directly from scripture. A dogmatic person stubbornly adheres to their beliefs adopted from fellow bandwagoneers, even when faced with contradictory evidence that Paul preached a Gospel of Grace that clearly does not hold to the same elements as that of the eleven.
- Fanaticism: This describes an excessive and often irrational enthusiasm or zeal for something that one has believed all his life as a Christian. A fanatic is often unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints because of the group-think to which one has bound himself, therefore driven by strong emotions rather than logic. While not always explicitly ignoring facts, fanaticism often involves prioritizing belief over evidence when faced with differences in Gospel messages.
- Willful Blindness: This term describes the conscious decision to ignore presented information that challenges one's beliefs or actions. It's a deliberate choice to remain ignorant, even when the truth is readily available. This is a particularly strong term, suggesting a deliberate avoidance of the reality that not even Jesus preached His own death and resurrection in His Gospel preaching.
- Self-Deception: This refers to the act of deceiving oneself into believing something that is not true. This can be a subconscious process, where a person convinces themselves of something to protect their ego or avoid uncomfortable truths, such as resistance to the presented evidence for an evolved gospel message, or different Gospels based upon variations in content.
- Delusion: This is a fixed, false belief that is resistant to reason or evidence. Delusions are often associated with mental/spiritual illness. This is the strongest term, implying a significant departure from reality and a denial of biblical truths presented that is avoided by jumping from one rabbit hole to another as evasive maneuvers.
- Irrationality: This is a general term for thinking, feeling, or behaving in a way that is not logical or reasonable. Believing something in spite of the facts is a clear example of irrationality when denying what Paul declared as his gospel, and comparing that to Peter's gospel to Israel.
- Cognitive Dissonance: This describes the mental discomfort experienced when holding conflicting beliefs, ideas, or values. To reduce this discomfort, people may rationalize, ignore, or deny information that contradicts their beliefs, such as what some have done here in this thread. While not a direct synonym, it explains the process that leads to believing in something despite the facts.
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Well said, and the very point that goes missing because of assumptions made that Paul, at the beginning of his ministry, continued the practice of water baptism for a very small few, with no real memory as to if he had ever baptized any others. It's an incontrovertible fact that, had water baptism been of such great importance FOR salvation, he would not have neglected that being a part of his Gospel command. Instead, we're met with the absolute silence on the matter.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
To say that baptism was/is an integral part for the bestowment of salvation upon any individual under the Gospel of Grace, in the face of so much evidence to the contrary in Paul's ministry and writings, with him knowing his writings were on the level of scripture, that is the height of arrogance today and historically for all who say what is an actual indictment against Paul for being a bumbling fool. He was no such type.
Even Peter confirmed the events of bestowment of salvation BEFORE anyone was ever water baptized:
Acts 10:46-47
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
They were filled with Holy Spirit and exercising the gifts BEFORE they were dunked in water, which lends absolute evidence they were saved BEFORE water baptism, with Peter not saying one word for its requirement in any sense of the word. It was strictly symbolic, and symbolism saves nobody! More people need to get this right. Allegorizing tendencies has far too many people taking that practice to the extreme of transplanting over into the dispensation of Grace a requirement that was laid down only BEFORE Grace was manifest.
Who in their right mind thinks unbelievers were ever filled with Holy Spirit? They had Holy Spirit, and were sealed by Holy Spirit, BEFORE getting wet.
Acts 16:30-33
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
That was NOT Peter's Gospel of the Kingdom BEFORE Paul had received the revelation of the mystery hidden in God from the foundation of the world, that had the princes of this world (demons and Satan) they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory. The ignorance of these facts is astounding to behold. Peter, under the Kingdom Gospel, laid down the requirement for salvation water baptism unto the remission of sins, which bath then, was necessary for salvation. Who could disagree with that and not realize how ignorant they are? But, instead, we see the practice of, "This is what I believe, and it doesn't matter what evidence there is to the contrary, I will continue believing it."
Wow...
MM
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
To say that baptism was/is an integral part for the bestowment of salvation upon any individual under the Gospel of Grace, in the face of so much evidence to the contrary in Paul's ministry and writings, with him knowing his writings were on the level of scripture, that is the height of arrogance today and historically for all who say what is an actual indictment against Paul for being a bumbling fool. He was no such type.
Even Peter confirmed the events of bestowment of salvation BEFORE anyone was ever water baptized:
Acts 10:46-47
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
They were filled with Holy Spirit and exercising the gifts BEFORE they were dunked in water, which lends absolute evidence they were saved BEFORE water baptism, with Peter not saying one word for its requirement in any sense of the word. It was strictly symbolic, and symbolism saves nobody! More people need to get this right. Allegorizing tendencies has far too many people taking that practice to the extreme of transplanting over into the dispensation of Grace a requirement that was laid down only BEFORE Grace was manifest.
Who in their right mind thinks unbelievers were ever filled with Holy Spirit? They had Holy Spirit, and were sealed by Holy Spirit, BEFORE getting wet.
Acts 16:30-33
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
That was NOT Peter's Gospel of the Kingdom BEFORE Paul had received the revelation of the mystery hidden in God from the foundation of the world, that had the princes of this world (demons and Satan) they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory. The ignorance of these facts is astounding to behold. Peter, under the Kingdom Gospel, laid down the requirement for salvation water baptism unto the remission of sins, which bath then, was necessary for salvation. Who could disagree with that and not realize how ignorant they are? But, instead, we see the practice of, "This is what I believe, and it doesn't matter what evidence there is to the contrary, I will continue believing it."
Wow...
MM
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Paul never preached the requirement for baptism into the death of Christ. That is the problem with transplanting into the Gospel of Grace an element that was never once said to exist in Paul's Gospel! Go with the evidence rather than fabricating the usual vomit of organized religion, which is a powerful tool of Satan for deception and false doctrine. It's fine for people to be baptized, but I proved beyond doubt in a post above this one that even Peter became aware that salvation came BEFORE anyone was baptized.
MM
MM
Yeah because it’s not talking about baptism in that passage makes sense he wouldn’t be talking about it ….
you guys can’t even get past this verse spoken. Y the Lord himself
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
It’s actually sad . Instead of just accepting that Jesus sent baptism out with the gospel of salvation
“preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; “
That’s what they did it you guys explain “water “baptism ? That isn’t the one baptism …
“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
Acts 8:35-39
To accept what you guys are saying a person has to conclude that the apostles have it all wrong they are oracticing this false baptism in water. Like Philip above or Peter and the gentiles
“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:47-48 KJV
Not a single one of you can deal with any real content you Just ignore the fact that the apostles of Jesus Christ were sent out to preach the gospel and they baptized in water
it’s a waste of time rewlly you guys never respond to anything you just argue and point elsewhere th arguments like “ this verse doesn’t mention baptism therefore baptism isn’t there “
you guys just ignore anything scriptire actually says . When someone shows you that there’s one baptism
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism,”
Ephesians 4:4-5 KJV
you say nope there’s many and that’s not water baptism in Jesus name ….yet the apostles were baptizing in water in his name for remission of sins .
You say there’s not one baptism and it’s not done in water or in Jesus name ……..but the Bible clearly says different
aid you want to know what baptism is you should study Roman’s 6-8 Colossians 2 Galatians 3 lol but then you’ll just conclude “ that isn’t the baptism Jesus sent into the world and said “whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved “
It’s impossible to discuss the Bible with about half the people here because you guys refuse to ever acknowledge or address anything even the simple basic things like baptism
you guys can’t even get past this verse spoken. Y the Lord himself
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
It’s actually sad . Instead of just accepting that Jesus sent baptism out with the gospel of salvation
“preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; “
That’s what they did it you guys explain “water “baptism ? That isn’t the one baptism …
“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
Acts 8:35-39
To accept what you guys are saying a person has to conclude that the apostles have it all wrong they are oracticing this false baptism in water. Like Philip above or Peter and the gentiles
“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
Acts 10:47-48 KJV
Not a single one of you can deal with any real content you Just ignore the fact that the apostles of Jesus Christ were sent out to preach the gospel and they baptized in water
it’s a waste of time rewlly you guys never respond to anything you just argue and point elsewhere th arguments like “ this verse doesn’t mention baptism therefore baptism isn’t there “
you guys just ignore anything scriptire actually says . When someone shows you that there’s one baptism
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism,”
Ephesians 4:4-5 KJV
you say nope there’s many and that’s not water baptism in Jesus name ….yet the apostles were baptizing in water in his name for remission of sins .
You say there’s not one baptism and it’s not done in water or in Jesus name ……..but the Bible clearly says different
aid you want to know what baptism is you should study Roman’s 6-8 Colossians 2 Galatians 3 lol but then you’ll just conclude “ that isn’t the baptism Jesus sent into the world and said “whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved “
It’s impossible to discuss the Bible with about half the people here because you guys refuse to ever acknowledge or address anything even the simple basic things like baptism
Romans 6
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Back up what comes out of your mouth someone saved without being baptized.