At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

Yes, I learn from RB Thieme.

I have come to believe as we have discussed this issue that you and I are a lot closer in our thinking than was first apparent. I think it is more our own particular word usage that makes us look different.

Like I said before, when others start using the word "obedience", it makes my eye twitch in case what they really mean is "putting in your best effort" to comply with God's commands.

Faith is the Word at work in us to put it simply. Rom.10:17 tells us where faith comes from and Heb.11:1 tells us it is a guaranteed thing not simply a "wishful thinking" thing. The power for such assurance comes from the word, His word is truth so where there is no truth, there is no faith, we are only left with whatever we believe. The Spirit takes the things of Christ (Christ is the word) and when we respond to that word positively (ie. believe as true) and rest/abide in that truth, the word then starts to become a part of who we are so that we end up with "no longer I who lives but Christ who live in me".

If I may be a little presumptuous ... I rather think where you say faith/obedience, I'm inclined to think faith/rest and see that we are really saying the same thing. What say you?

We may think or label ourselves as "genuine saints" but the harsh reality is that no one knows who is or is not in the Book of Life.

Hence the need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

I realize this is not a popular idea but this is clearly expressed in the Bible.

Ask King Solomon.

Wait let me guess...he was not a genuine saint.

I know the terminology. Other than some who learned from him, I also know he's about the only one I ever heard address things like mechanics.

Probably yes & no. 20 years ago probably mainly yes.

Some things to address, but good for now.

Of course you may say whatever you'd like. Faith/Obedience is straight parallelism from the Word in more than a few places. Faith/Rest is a doctrinal teaching based in part in Hebrews3-4. For some connection of Faith/Obedience with rest in Heb3-4 see this parallelism:

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb. 3:18-19 NKJ) - disobedience is parallel with unbelief.

For more, carry this parallelism forward. When we're seeing disobedience, we're seeing unbelief:

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, (Heb. 4:6 NKJ)

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (Heb. 4:11 NKJ)

So, from (exegesis) Scriptures like this, and others, what say I is Faith/Obedience is straight parallelism from the Word. Using good old military terminology that you should be used to hearing, just follow orders. It's inextricably intertwined with Genuine Faith: 46 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Lk. 6:46 NKJ).

BTW, there are commands in Heb4:1, Heb4:7, Heb4:11 and more as Heb4 continues through the end where we're commanded to come before the Grace Throne in times of need (in dealing with sin, which is disobedience, so apply this to all of the above for a mechanic re: rest).

From the above do you see any rest apart from obeying Him? The example is no rest due to unbelief/disobedience - no Faith/Obedience no rest.

So, believers cannot have assurance of salvation? (Romans 8:16; 1 John 5:11-13) Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear of bondage and insecurity which is not from above!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

Although Solomon certainly messed up and so did other OT saints, I'll leave that salvation judgment call in the hands of God. Judas Iscariot would have been a better example and strong evidence points to him not being a genuine saint. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)