At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

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studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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I rarely geek out on Greek. I barely understand Hebrew. English is my second language, but my first was just crying a lot.
English first, mostly knucklehead. Learning Greek (more an analyst/translator- don't speak it) felt like new synapses were being created - gave me very weird headaches! Some Hebrew but mostly forgotten due to so much work in Greek. Your statement about shedding vs. application was timely as I've been working through justification in Romans, Galatian, and James again and in Romans, I'm seeing it a bit differently than before, maybe.
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
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English first, mostly knucklehead. Learning Greek (more an analyst/translator- don't speak it) felt like new synapses were being created - gave me very weird headaches! Some Hebrew but mostly forgotten due to so much work in Greek. Your statement about shedding vs. application was timely as I've been working through justification in Romans, Galatian, and James again and Romans I'm seeing a bit differently than before, maybe.
I appreciate the analysis and the labor of translators. I rarely trust them.

I really do enjoy digging more deeply into scripture also (tipping my hat toward your username) and diving into original languages is a fascination for me. I use theWord software.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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I appreciate the analysis and the labor of translators. I rarely trust them.

I really do enjoy digging more deeply into scripture also (tipping my hat toward your username) and diving into original languages is a fascination for me. I use theWord software.
Funny, I am one and I don't trust any of us. I rarely if ever work from a previous translation I've done and rather retranslate fresh any time I'm digging in.

This username for this media was easy as it's what I've been doing with most of my time for decades. Yours made me smile the first time I saw it. The horse looks different, but a horse is a horse...
 

Lamar

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May 21, 2023
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A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. A symbol is not the reality, but is a picture of the reality.
A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the marriage certificate is evidence of the marriage. Water baptism is that certificate, without that certificate you are but a guest without the proper garments (Matthew 22:1-14). Just as we become united with Christ through faith, water baptism is the fulfillment of that reality. Water baptism is not a symbol of a past event, it is the event. It is the point and time that one is washed in the blood of Jesus.

Remission of sins does not "happen" at some mystic point in our understanding of faith. It happens at a set point and not over time. There is a moment in which we decide to commit ourselves to Jesus and it is not solely a mental acceptance but a proper response to God's command of water baptism. Water baptism is not a "thing" you do after you receive the remission of sins, it is a thing you do so that you will receive the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38
"Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift."

You are blinded by your wholly unquotable faith alone regeneration theology.
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
405
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Funny, I am one and I don't trust any of us. I rarely if ever work from a previous translation I've done and rather retranslate fresh any time I'm digging in.

This username for this media was easy as it's what I've been doing with most of my time for decades. Yours made me smile the first time I saw it. The horse looks different, but a horse is a horse...
Of course.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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This is simply another term for apostasy does not exist.

There is no need for warnings about something that cannot be real.

Its like "repent or perish".

Why warn people who believe to repent since those who believe have by your reasoning already repented?
when we say “ believe “ people are meaning different things . I can say I believe in Jesus and I love jesus so much I trust him with all I am ect

abut then when we find out what he said

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we suddenly forget that we are believers of Jesus and what he said gets left out of our belief …..we leave this out of our belief

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, ( saying this to believers not atheists ) If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭

as Christians were trying to have faith without hearing his word

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can’t cut out the things our lord taught us n the gospel of his kingdom and also expect to receive what he promised in it for those who believe

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭

awe have tinker Gods word build and form and shape our faith meaning the gospel that’s the word that gives us faith

“being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For

All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can’t believe and also reject Jesus words about salvation oir faith depends on it
 
Apr 7, 2014
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A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the marriage certificate is evidence of the marriage. Water baptism is that certificate, without that certificate you are but a guest without the proper garments (Matthew 22:1-14).
Your logic in regard to water baptism here is flawed. The interpretation of the parable that aligns best with Jesus’ main point is that the wedding garment represents the righteousness of Christ that is received through faith. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). You need to read the parable of the wedding feast in context. The king sent his servants to summon selected guests to the banquet, but they ignored the invitation and others mistreated and killed the servants. This part of the parable represents Israel’s collective rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. Then it depicts the inclusion of the Gentiles into God’s plan, the king expanded the banquet invitation to anyone his servants could. The wedding invitation to those who were not previously invited anticipates the spreading of the gospel to the Gentiles.

Just as we become united with Christ through faith, water baptism is the fulfillment of that reality. Water baptism is not a symbol of a past event, it is the event. It is the point and time that one is washed in the blood of Jesus.
False. We become united with Christ through faith and water baptism signifies this. Believing in/placing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is the point and time that one receives remission of sins. (Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 26:18; Romans 3:24-26) Water baptism is a symbol of this past event.

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification" (Romans 4:24,25).

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith."

Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Remission of sins does not "happen" at some mystic point in our understanding of faith. It happens at a set point and not over time.
Remission of sins does not happen at some mystic point in your understanding of baptism. It happens the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:38 - Therefore, let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:9 - Hearts are purified by faith.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

There is a moment in which we decide to commit ourselves to Jesus and it is not solely a mental acceptance but a proper response to God's command of water baptism.
Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision made prior to receiving water baptism.

Water baptism is not a "thing" you do after you receive the remission of sins, it is a thing you do so that you will receive the remission of sins.
False. (Acts 10:43-47)

Acts 2:38
"Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift."
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

You are blinded by your wholly unquotable faith alone regeneration theology.
Man is justified by faith (faith plus what? Faith plus nothing/faith alone - Romans 5:1). Man is saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Faith alone. You are blinded by the gospel according to Campbellism that culminates in salvation by water. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
 

Lamar

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May 21, 2023
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Your logic in regard to water baptism here is flawed. The interpretation of the parable that aligns best with Jesus’ main point is that the wedding garment represents the righteousness of Christ that is received through faith. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). You need to read the parable of the wedding feast in context. The king sent his servants to summon selected guests to the banquet, but they ignored the invitation and others mistreated and killed the servants. This part of the parable represents Israel’s collective rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. Then it depicts the inclusion of the Gentiles into God’s plan, the king expanded the banquet invitation to anyone his servants could. The wedding invitation to those who were not previously invited anticipates the spreading of the gospel to the Gentiles.

False. We become united with Christ through faith and water baptism signifies this. Believing in/placing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is the point and time that one receives remission of sins. (Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 26:18; Romans 3:24-26) Water baptism is a symbol of this past event.

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification" (Romans 4:24,25).

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith."

Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Remission of sins does not happen at some mystic point in your understanding of baptism. It happens the very moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:38 - Therefore, let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:9 - Hearts are purified by faith.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision made prior to receiving water baptism.

False. (Acts 10:43-47)

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Man is justified by faith (faith plus what? Faith plus nothing/faith alone - Romans 5:1). Man is saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Faith alone. You are blinded by the gospel according to Campbellism that culminates in salvation by water. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
We have debated this issue before so let me offer this point, which I am sure you will disagree with but here it goes.

Your view of Acts 2:38 is quite telling of your reasoning and willingness to turn a blind eye to the obvious.

Acts 2:38 is clear and anyone reading it will not come to the conclusion that we should be water baptized "because of" the remission of sins unless they are inclined to believe so. There are no Bibles that use such verbiage regardless of the language the Greek is being translated into.

Your understanding is a forced one, if you are honest you will see this.

You would not use this line of reasoning in your own daily dealings with other subjects or even other verses.

Would you honestly think that Peter would cast his net into the water "because of" the catch that Jesus promised in Luke 5:4? Would you?

Luke 5:4
And when He ceased speaking, He said to Simon, “Put-out into the deep [water] and lower your nets for a catch”.

How do you understand this verse? Did Simon cast his net "because of" the catch?
 
Apr 7, 2014
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We have debated this issue before so let me offer this point, which I am sure you will disagree with but here it goes.

Your view of Acts 2:38 is quite telling of your reasoning and willingness to turn a blind eye to the obvious.

Acts 2:38 is clear and anyone reading it will not come to the conclusion that we should be water baptized "because of" the remission of sins unless they are inclined to believe so. There are no Bibles that use such verbiage regardless of the language the Greek is being translated into.

Your understanding is a forced one, if you are honest you will see this.

You would not use this line of reasoning in your own daily dealings with other subjects or even other verses.

Would you honestly think that Peter would cast his net into the water "because of" the catch that Jesus promised in Luke 5:4? Would you?

Luke 5:4
And when He ceased speaking, He said to Simon, “Put-out into the deep [water] and lower your nets for a catch”.

How do you understand this verse? Did Simon cast his net "because of" the catch?
As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains: And be baptized every one of you (κα βαπτισθητω εκαστος υμων). Rather, "And let each one of you be baptized." Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve.

One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/acts-2.html

Scripture MUST harmonize with Scripture as I already explained in post #49. Now good luck explaining away Acts 10:43-47.
 

Lamar

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May 21, 2023
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One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not.
This speaks volumes about the faith alone regeneration theology movement.

Your hermeneutics is determined by your theology.

Thank you for your honesty.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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This speaks volumes about the faith alone regeneration theology movement.

Your hermeneutics is determined by your theology.

Thank you for your honesty.
Pot calling the kettle black. What a cop out. Your CoC botched interpretation of Acts 10:43-47 clearly demonstrates how your hermeneutics is determined by your theology.

Once again, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* :)
 

Lamar

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May 21, 2023
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Scripture MUST harmonize with Scripture as I already explained in post #49. Now good luck explaining away Acts 10:43-47.
There is nothing to explain away in Acts 10:43-47. It is in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

They believed, they were baptized and they were saved. I am sure there were other things going on such as repentance and confession but Acts 10:43-47 in not an exception to the rest of the Bible.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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There is nothing to explain away in Acts 10:43-47. It is in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

They believed, they were baptized and they were saved. I am sure there were other things going on such as repentance and confession but Acts 10:43-47 in not an exception to the rest of the Bible.
These Gentiles clearly believed in Him and received forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43) and received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45) and the spiritual gift of tongues (Acts 10:46) which is ONLY for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47) Crystal clear.
 

sawdust

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Feb 12, 2024
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I think I already did with Scripture. The parallelism between Faith and Obedience in Scripture is pronounced once we see it. The problem with some Grace teachings is that they can lead to the thinking that obedience is a dirty word. It'll be denied, but it's there and I've dealt with it quite a bit.

Since we were discussing this, I pulled up Thieme's Faith-Rest writings. He mentioned obedience in 2 forms a total of 6 times in the entire document and not in very meaningful ways.

Years ago, I was led to do some studies on the concept. Every morning first thing for however many weeks or months I opened a paper Bible (not normal for me since I've been using languages-oriented digital study software for decades and before anything was on the internet), and I sat and simply wrote in the margins "obedience" every time I saw the concept or the forms of the word. It was quite enlightening, and this was after studying about 3,000+ hours of Thieme, reading all his books, being a "taper" for years, attending a phone hookup group for a time, attending his remote visits, going to seminary at his introduction of one, learning Greek, being ordained at Berachah, and teaching for some years.

Over the years combined with a few other major studies I was led to do, that study on obedience showed me that it is part of and attached to nearly every major word and concept pertinent to us as Christians. One of those studies was to identify and compile every command in the NC in every form of commands in the Greek language. Again, I did this before the internet was really functioning, so the study was not something I could find online - there really was no developed online yet.

When I did that study, I had some long-term Berachah students telling me to be careful because it could lead to legalism. So, learning God's Word and God's NC commands could be dangerous to my Faith??? Let's just put it this way, I didn't listen to them, and nothing can shake me from what God has taught me. I'm actually astounded still at how few are oriented to obeying our Lord God in Faith which is parallel to obedience in Scripture. I'm also aware of how it is given lip-service by others and how many will work around the language and concept of His commands - nearly 600 of them in the epistles alone. I'm also aware of how we can run up against some of them and remain in some form of inner rebellion and reasoning as to what they mean to us or what we may want them to mean irrespective of what they do mean.

Assuming you've gotten this far, thanks for reading. Suffice it to say that Faith/Obedience is well-attested in Scripture and it remains part of my Biblical vocabulary, and it has opened my understanding of our Text greatly. There is no true rest apart from Faith and thus apart from Faith/Obedience. From there comes the whole "works" discussion which is really a mess, and I've come to see it as being as much a debacle as many Calvinistic teachings.
I understand what you are saying here but you should know I didn't learn the faith/rest drill from Thieme, I learned it from trial and error as a new Christian by simply believing what the word said and doing it. If it said "God cared for me" I believed and relied on that and not what my circumstances said or how I felt. I came to understand the first four gates (if you remember Thieme's teaching) before I was ever introduced to his teaching. What he was able to do was take me further, past the elemental stuff and to organise what I already knew so picking out his teaching as if it is misleading or lacking, doesn't really make any sense to me.

I am beginning to wonder ... if you remember how I distinguish our believing and having faith as two different things, then I think what you call faith/obedience is what I understand as believing the word and relying on it as the truth, irrespective of anything around you to the contrary, allowing that belief to be your motivator and guide in all you say and do and from there, faith is generated (assuming what we believed was true). We then rest in the faith we have and believe/obey the word in order to see our faith grow. The very fact one has faith (as distinct from simply believing something) shows one has been obedient as there is no other way to get faith other than trusting and following (obeying) what the word says.

Whether we are any closer in thinking, I don't know but I have enjoyed our discussion. If nothing else, we have eternity to iron out our misunderstandings. ;)

Peace of the Lord be with you. :)